[TUHS] PDP-7 and Interdata 8/32 Bell System UNIX Installations?

[TUHS] PDP-7 and Interdata 8/32 Bell System UNIX Installations?

[segaloco via TUHS]

Are there any documented or remembered instances PDP-7 or Interdata 8/32 UNIX being installed on any such machines for use in the Bell System aside from their original hosts?  Along similar lines, was the mention of PDP-7 UNIX also supporting the PDP-9 based solely on consistencies in the architecture or did this early version of UNIX actually get bootstrapped on a real PDP-9 at some point?

My understanding of the pre-3B-and-VAX landscape of UNIX in the Bell System is predominantly PDP-11 systems, but there was also work in the late 70s regarding 8086 hosts as evidenced in some BSTJ and other publications, and there is the System/370 work (Holmdel?) which I don't know enough about to say whether it technically starts before or after UNIX touches the VAX.

Thanks for any info!

- Matt G.

[TUHS] Re: PDP-7 and Interdata 8/32 Bell System UNIX Installations?

[segaloco via TUHS]

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Thanks Ken! I hadn't, even considered the PDP-15. Looks like SimH supports it, that could make for an interesting project...

- Matt G.
On Monday, December 18th, 2023 at 6:12 PM, Ken Thompson <kenbob@gmail.com> wrote:

> the pdp-7 was run on the almost compatible
> pdp-9 and pdp-15 computers.
> i dont think that version of unix ever made
> it out of the research department.
>
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 5:54 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
>
>> Are there any documented or remembered instances PDP-7 or Interdata 8/32 UNIX being installed on any such machines for use in the Bell System aside from their original hosts? Along similar lines, was the mention of PDP-7 UNIX also supporting the PDP-9 based solely on consistencies in the architecture or did this early version of UNIX actually get bootstrapped on a real PDP-9 at some point?
>>
>> My understanding of the pre-3B-and-VAX landscape of UNIX in the Bell System is predominantly PDP-11 systems, but there was also work in the late 70s regarding 8086 hosts as evidenced in some BSTJ and other publications, and there is the System/370 work (Holmdel?) which I don't know enough about to say whether it technically starts before or after UNIX touches the VAX.
>>
>> Thanks for any info!
>>
>> - Matt G.

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[TUHS] Re: PDP-7 and Interdata 8/32 Bell System UNIX Installations?

[Warner Losh]

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On Mon, Dec 18, 2023, 6:45 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:

> Are there any documented or remembered instances PDP-7 or Interdata 8/32
> UNIX being installed on any such machines for use in the Bell System aside
> from their original hosts?  Along similar lines, was the mention of PDP-7
> UNIX also supporting the PDP-9 based solely on consistencies in the
> architecture or did this early version of UNIX actually get bootstrapped on
> a real PDP-9 at some point?
>

I've been told it ran on a couple of pdp-9s at bell labs with the right
disk controllers. The original one was a pdp-9 controller retofitted to
work in the pdp-7. There was only ever 1 pdp-7 installation back in the day.

My understanding of the pre-3B-and-VAX landscape of UNIX in the Bell System
> is predominantly PDP-11 systems, but there was also work in the late 70s
> regarding 8086 hosts as evidenced in some BSTJ and other publications, and
> there is the System/370 work (Holmdel?) which I don't know enough about to
> say whether it technically starts before or after UNIX touches the VAX.
>

The pdp11 was the only machine to run unix until the ports began after the
5th edition came out. They began in earnest after the 6th Edition came out
they began in earnest ar Bell Labs with the interdata 8/32 and IBM 370/VM.
After that v7 was ported to the vax in what would become the 32V. Outside
of Bell Labs was the internal 7/32 at Wollongong that beat the lab's
effort. And another port to IBM 370/VM. I'm not sure when the 8086 with
custom MMU was in all this. Late I believe: either just before V7 or just
after.

Warner

Thanks for any info!
>
> - Matt G.
>

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[TUHS] Re: PDP-7 and Interdata 8/32 Bell System UNIX Installations?

[Lars Brinkhoff]

Warner Losh wrote:
> Matt G wrote:
> > Are there any documented or remembered instances PDP-7 or Interdata
> > 8/32 UNIX being installed on any such machines for use in the Bell
> > System aside from their original hosts?
>
> I've been told it ran on a couple of pdp-9s at bell labs with the
> right disk controllers. The original one was a pdp-9 controller
> retofitted to work in the pdp-7. There was only ever 1 pdp-7
> installation back in the day.

The back story here is approximately something like the PDP-7 being left
over from development of William Ninke's Graphic II display systen done
in cooperation with DEC.  There was previously a Graphic I built around
a PDP-5.  DEC later made the GT40 (aka Graphic-11) based on a PDP-11/10,
and the Graphic-15 for the PDP-15.

[TUHS] Re: PDP-7 and Interdata 8/32 Bell System UNIX Installations?

[Phil Budne]

Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> The back story here is approximately something like the PDP-7 being left
> over from development of William Ninke's Graphic II display systen done
> in cooperation with DEC.

The fast fixed-head disk on the UNIX PDP-7 seems to have been the RB09
for the upcomming PDP-9, and it's been my surmise that the PDP-7 was
likely used until PDP-9s were available for "production" Graphic II
workstations.  I seem to recall the DEC Field Service list for 18-bit
systems only showed the one PDP-7, but multiple PDP-9's equipped with
an RB09.

While working on the PDP-7 UNIX resuscitation (I wrote a stand-in for
the shell, which served until the listings for utilities from the
second half of the alphabet were found and scanned) I once booted UNIX
on under SimH PDP-9 simulation.

I believe the same (Burroughs?) disk was used as the RD10 on PDP-10
systems as a swap device.

https://archive.org/details/TNM_PDP-10_computer_price_list_1967_20180205_0300/page/n1/mode/2up

shows the RD10 subsystem was $32,500 in 1967.

https://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-9 says an 8K system was $30K and that a
PDP-7 was $72K.

I don't doubt the custom Graphic II hardware was costly as well.  The
Graphic II project seems to have been well funded, and the demo videos
I've seen show the Graphic systems were meant for doing "real"
(telephone network) related work (I remember seeing one on filter
design), so I imagine the PDP-9 Graphic II systems were in use during
regular work hours.  The Graphic II systems had modem links to a
(GE635?) mainframe, so it's _possible_ the disk was only used for
fast/temporary storage, and it wouldn't matter if someone booted UNIX
after hours...

Ah... I found the simh .ini file I used:

phil@phil-nb9:~$ ls -l /home/phil/pdp7-unix/build/pdp9.simh
-rw-rw-r-- 1 phil phil 613 Mar 27  2016 /home/phil/pdp7-unix/build/pdp9.simh
phil@phil-nb9:~$ cat !$
cat /home/phil/pdp7-unix/build/pdp9.simh
set cpu 8k
set cpu eae
#set cpu history=100
show cpu

# set up SIMH devices:

# UNIX character translations (CR to NL, ESC to ALTMODE):
set tti unix

# RB09 fixed head disk:
set rb ena
att rb image.fs

# uncomment to TELNET in GRAPHICS-2 keyboard/display(!!)
# (requires github.com/philbudne/simh)
#set g2in ena
#att -U g2in 12345

# disable hardware UNIX-7 doesn't know about:
set lpt disa
set drm disa
set dt disa

# PDP-9 hardware
set ttix disa
set ttox disa
set mt disa
set rf disa

# show device settings:
show dev

# load and run the paper tape bootstrap
# (loads system from disk)
load boot.rim 010000