[TUHS] OK, no more 80 cols please

[TUHS] OK, no more 80 cols please

[Warren Toomey]

It's time to assert my editorial control and say: no more 80 cols please!

Anybody who mentions 80 cols will be forced to use either a Hazeltine or
an ADM3 (not 3a) for a month.

Thanks, Warren

[TUHS] OK, no more 80 cols please

[Larry McVoy]

Can I start a thread on 96 columns vs 104 colums?  What about non tabbed
aligned?  People have needs!

Just kidding, I'm with ya, thanks Warren!

On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 07:23:22AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> It's time to assert my editorial control and say: no more 80 cols please!
> 
> Anybody who mentions 80 cols will be forced to use either a Hazeltine or
> an ADM3 (not 3a) for a month.
> 
> Thanks, Warren

[TUHS] OK, no more 80 cols please

[George Michaelson]

My ADM has unebelievably noisy flyback whine. I can't stand it. I turn
it on, to remind myself why I turned it off.

my ASR33 got dropped in the last office move. its silent, perforce,
for the forseeable, probably ever. its also 22ma currentloop which was
always going to be hard to patch into things. (I think it has a 232
option too, didn't look)

On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 5:23 AM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
> It's time to assert my editorial control and say: no more 80 cols please!
>
> Anybody who mentions 80 cols will be forced to use either a Hazeltine or
> an ADM3 (not 3a) for a month.
>
> Thanks, Warren

[TUHS] OK, no more 80 cols please

[Dave Horsfall]

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017, George Michaelson wrote:

> my ASR33 got dropped in the last office move. its silent, perforce, for 
> the forseeable, probably ever. its also 22ma currentloop which was 
> always going to be hard to patch into things. (I think it has a 232 
> option too, didn't look)

There's a lot of RTTY enthusiasts who'll gladly take it (and may even 
repair it); the trouble is shipping the beast, so it'll have to be pick-up 
only...

http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

[TUHS] OK, no more 80 cols please

[George Michaelson]

thanks David. I won't throw it, or that pointer away wontonly. All
beasts deserve a good home in the end.

On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Nov 2017, George Michaelson wrote:
>
>> my ASR33 got dropped in the last office move. its silent, perforce, for
>> the forseeable, probably ever. its also 22ma currentloop which was always
>> going to be hard to patch into things. (I think it has a 232 option too,
>> didn't look)
>
>
> There's a lot of RTTY enthusiasts who'll gladly take it (and may even repair
> it); the trouble is shipping the beast, so it'll have to be pick-up only...
>
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys
>
> --
> Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will
> suffer."

[TUHS] OK, no more 80 cols please

[Steve Nickolas]

I would kill for a semi-modern terminal in an ADM3a/5 type chassis. 
Something about the late 70s pastel googie BakeLite look I just dig.

-uso.

[TUHS] OK, no more 80 cols please

[Dave Horsfall]

On Sat, 11 Nov 2017, Steve Nickolas wrote:

> I would kill for a semi-modern terminal in an ADM3a/5 type chassis. 
> Something about the late 70s pastel googie BakeLite look I just dig.

Seeing as we're talking about old Unix-y terminals, the ADM-3a was 
certainly one of my favourites; there was something about the keyboard 
layout that just screamed out "Unix".  Was it the unshifted "=" key?  The 
unshifted "[]" keys?  Can't remember now, but C programming was a breeze 
with it.

Another favourite was the Teleray 1061, with user-programmable function 
keys; yes, we were dumb enough to store our username/password there...

The *worst* terminal I've ever had to use was the VT-220 and its clones; I 
was always having to hunt'n'peck for common keys.  I still loathe it.

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

[TUHS] OK, no more 80 cols please

[George Michaelson]

On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 12:00 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> The *worst* terminal I've ever had to use was the VT-220 and its clones; I
> was always having to hunt'n'peck for common keys.  I still loathe it.

EDT/EVE/TPU users on VMS love 'em. I had the rubber overlays for the
numeric and gold keypad set to give it labels. (never used it but we
handed 'em out)

I suspect, we're all apes, captive to the first trick we learn.  Ahhh
Bliss (thats a VMS joke.. and btw, I am not a VMS lover, even if not a
VMS hater)

[TUHS] OK, no more 80 cols please

[Andy Kosela]

On Sunday, November 12, 2017, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Nov 2017, Steve Nickolas wrote:
>
> I would kill for a semi-modern terminal in an ADM3a/5 type chassis.
>> Something about the late 70s pastel googie BakeLite look I just dig.
>>
>
> Seeing as we're talking about old Unix-y terminals, the ADM-3a was
> certainly one of my favourites; there was something about the keyboard
> layout that just screamed out "Unix".  Was it the unshifted "=" key?  The
> unshifted "[]" keys?  Can't remember now, but C programming was a breeze
> with it.
>
> Another favourite was the Teleray 1061, with user-programmable function
> keys; yes, we were dumb enough to store our username/password there...
>
> The *worst* terminal I've ever had to use was the VT-220 and its clones; I
> was always having to hunt'n'peck for common keys.  I still loathe it.
>
>
Because you need LK421 UNIX keyboard[1] for those.  Pretty rare these days,
but I have several of them in NOS quality stashed, just in case one of them
breaks.

My personal favorite is definitely VT220 -- very "modern" shape, small and
portable even for todays standards (12" tube), and the built-in font is
just perfect.  Did I mention beautiful scanlines?  You won't find them on
PC CRT monitors.

--Andy

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LK421
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[TUHS] OK, no more 80 cols please

[Ralph Corderoy]

Hi Dave,

> the ADM-3a was certainly one of my favourites

Mine too;  my first.  Spent longer with the ADM 11 though, after it,
including an amber model, rather than the vulgar green.  I ended up in
France a few years later with some Silicon Graphics machines, but not
enough of them for the planned Mongolian hoard.  I suggested serial
terminals, like the old days, a batch of redundant ones were sent over
the Channel, and there was my old amber one, that I promptly reclaimed.

> there was something about the keyboard layout that just screamed out
> "Unix".

Bill Joy used an ADM 3A when writing vi.  That gave hjkl for cursor
movement because they were the cursor keys on the 3A.  And `~' shares
with HOME so I guess he used it for writing csh too.  :-)

> The *worst* terminal I've ever had to use was the VT-220 and its
> clones

Yes, awful.  The guy I faced over the desk had one and used VMS;  they
suited one another.  Not the guy, the terminal and OS.  It did mean he
could provide access to nethack though.

-- 
Cheers, Ralph.
https://plus.google.com/+RalphCorderoy

[TUHS] OK, no more 80 cols please

[Bakul Shah]

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On Nov 12, 2017, at 2:58 AM, Ralph Corderoy <ralph at inputplus.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>> the ADM-3a was certainly one of my favourites
> 
> Mine too;  my first.

I’ve used ADM-3a and various other terminals but my favorite was aaa-60, the Ann Arbor Ambassador that could display 80x60. For such a large display the Rand editor was a good fit as you could edit multiple files in multiple windows. IIRC, Bill Joy’s vi didn’t do multiple windows.

[TUHS] OK, no more 80 cols please

[Ralph Corderoy]

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Hi Bakul,

> IIRC, Bill Joy’s vi didn’t do multiple windows.

His personal version did, but the changes, to curses too IIRC, were lost
due to some fault and no backup.  He didn't re-do them.

-- 
Cheers, Ralph.
https://plus.google.com/+RalphCorderoy

[TUHS] OK, no more 80 cols please

[Larry McVoy]

Huh, that's news to me.  The multiple window stuff is what moved me to
vim, been happy there ever since.

If we're talking editors, I still have a hacked version of xvi that I
wacked to use mmap instead of read.  I wacked the string library to 
treat \n as NULL (it honored both, it had to, too much would need to
be changed if you didn't) and then wacked the code to just mmap the
file instead of reading it into a pile of strings.

I needed this because I was looking at long trace files from debugging
the kernel and I really wanted to be able to vi them.  On an 8MB Sun
I could look at about a 7MB file and have it all fit in memory.  The
old way only could do half that.

On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 03:01:51PM +0000, Ralph Corderoy wrote:
> Hi Bakul,
> 
> > IIRC, Bill Joy???s vi didn???t do multiple windows.
> 
> His personal version did, but the changes, to curses too IIRC, were lost
> due to some fault and no backup.  He didn't re-do them.
> 
> -- 
> Cheers, Ralph.
> https://plus.google.com/+RalphCorderoy

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

[TUHS] OK, no more 80 cols please

[Bakul Shah]

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nvi does multiple horizontal windows too (I don’t use vim much to know if it can split windows vertically). The Rand editor allowed you to split any windows vertically or horizontally. [I didn’t “move” to vim as it did arbitrary undo/redo incompatibly with nvi. I had asked Moolenaar a long time ago if he would provide an option to enable the nvi undo/redo behavior but he wasn’t interested. As a touch-mistypist this is an important feature for me :-)]

> On Nov 12, 2017, at 7:10 AM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> 
> Huh, that's news to me.  The multiple window stuff is what moved me to
> vim, been happy there ever since.
> 
> If we're talking editors, I still have a hacked version of xvi that I
> wacked to use mmap instead of read.  I wacked the string library to 
> treat \n as NULL (it honored both, it had to, too much would need to
> be changed if you didn't) and then wacked the code to just mmap the
> file instead of reading it into a pile of strings.
> 
> I needed this because I was looking at long trace files from debugging
> the kernel and I really wanted to be able to vi them.  On an 8MB Sun
> I could look at about a 7MB file and have it all fit in memory.  The
> old way only could do half that.
> 
>> On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 03:01:51PM +0000, Ralph Corderoy wrote:
>> Hi Bakul,
>> 
>>> IIRC, Bill Joy???s vi didn???t do multiple windows.
>> 
>> His personal version did, but the changes, to curses too IIRC, were lost
>> due to some fault and no backup.  He didn't re-do them.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Cheers, Ralph.
>> https://plus.google.com/+RalphCorderoy
> 
> -- 
> ---
> Larry McVoy                     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

[TUHS] OK, no more 80 cols please

[Ralph Corderoy]

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Hi,

Bakul wrote:
> (I don’t use vim much to know if it can split windows vertically).

Yes, horizontally or vertically.  Start vim, type `^Ws^Wv' where ^ is
Ctrl, and you'll have three windows.

> I didn’t “move” to vim as it did arbitrary undo/redo incompatibly with
> nvi.

That's still the case.  And it branches the undo history now, e.g. you
undo a few times, then make a new edit, and you old undone edits are
still available, but on another branch; the original one.  Occasionally
useful when you accidentally make an edit that would otherwise wipe the
redo.

Larry wrote:
> > Huh, that's news to me.

    What actually happened was that I was in the process of adding
    multiwindows to vi when we installed our VAX, which would have been
    in December of '78.  We didn't have any backups and the tape drive
    broke.  I continued to work even without being able to do backups.
    And then the source code got scrunched and I didn't have a complete
    listing.  I had almost rewritten all of the display code for
    windows, and that was when I gave up.  After that, I went back to
    the previous version and just documented the code, finished the
    manual and closed it off.  If that scrunch had not happened, vi
    would have multiple windows, and I might have put in some
    programmability—but I don't know
        — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vi#Distribution

-- 
Cheers, Ralph.
https://plus.google.com/+RalphCorderoy

[TUHS] OK, no more 80 cols please

[Dave Horsfall]

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On Sun, 12 Nov 2017, Ralph Corderoy wrote:

>> (I don’t use vim much to know if it can split windows vertically).
>
> Yes, horizontally or vertically.  Start vim, type `^Ws^Wv' where ^ is
> Ctrl, and you'll have three windows.

I often wondered how I got into it accidentally...  Thanks.

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

[TUHS] OK, no more 80 cols please

[Henry Bent]

On 11 November 2017 at 19:08, Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:

> Jim "wkt" Moriarty:
>
> > Anybody who mentions 80 cols will be forced to use either a Hazeltine or
> > an ADM3 (not 3a) for a month.
>
> =====
>
> So who has a modern emulator for either of those terminals?
>

MAME appears to have a Hazeltine 1500 emulator.  I have not tested it.

-Henry
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[TUHS] OK, no more 80 cols please

[Norman Wilson]

Jim "wkt" Moriarty:

> Anybody who mentions 80 cols will be forced to use either a Hazeltine or
> an ADM3 (not 3a) for a month.

=====

So who has a modern emulator for either of those terminals?

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON
(Still not really in Toronto, but no longer in Texas)