3 years of coding Zsh

3 years of coding Zsh

[Sebastian Gniazdowski]

Hello,
past 3 years I have send patches or induce following changes:

- zsh to not be slow because of memory-related patch (commited around 5.0.8),
- zsh to not allocate ~2000 MB or similar memory,
- sched never misses an event,
- recursive-edit doesn't go inconsistent state,
- zcurses supports 256 colors and color "default", does'nt blink
colors randomly,
- optimization that makes array+=( ) cost-less, plus multiple (4 or
more) other optimizations,
- optimization of Zsh execution (ecstrcode to use hasher),
- uplift of GDBM module,
- zsystem flock doesn't leak descriptors,
- zsystem flock can have 0-timeout
- patterns correctly match [^ax-y],
- sourcing doesn't call sigprocmask every byte – x2 faster zsh startup.

I've would enumerate more (e.g. debugged a pattern segfault), but I've
in general lost track of my patches and/or emails.

3152 commits to Zsh projects in one year, other year 2737 commits, 7.5
commits per day. It's like if some corporation hired me to work on
open source project. That's why I thought, maybe someone would support
me via patreon (https://www.patreon.com/psprint)? I could use the
money to e.g. uplift fast-syntax-highlighting.

-- 
Best regards,
Sebastian Gniazdowski

Re: 3 years of coding Zsh

[Ray Andrews]

On 15/06/18 09:55 AM, Sebastian Gniazdowski wrote:
>   I could use the
> money to e.g. uplift fast-syntax-highlighting.
>
I'd send you something but on that site it seems I have to log-in or 
join it, which I'd rather not.  Give me something simple and some bucks 
are on the way.

Re: 3 years of coding Zsh

[Jason L Tibbitts III]

>>>>> "RA" == Ray Andrews <rayandrews@eastlink.ca> writes:

RA> I'd send you something but on that site it seems I have to log-in or
RA> join it, which I'd rather not.

Patreon is a monthly thing, so yeah, it makes a bit of sense that you
have to join.

RA> Give me something simple and some bucks are on the way.

Personally I've used paypal, and before that i think it was Xoom or
something.  I think that at least those without an European bank account
are probably going to have to have some kind of account somewhere in
order to move funds around.

 - J<

Re: 3 years of coding Zsh

[Sebastian Gniazdowski]

I've updated PayPal button, it is in English and USD now. It's located
on the top of Fast-Syntax-Highlighting page:

https://github.com/zdharma/fast-syntax-highlighting


The URL pointed by the button is:

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=H4GZAACT2MQ3W

Any donation will be used for Zsh development, currently to uplift
Fast-Syntax-Highlighting.

On 15 June 2018 at 19:29, Ray Andrews <rayandrews@eastlink.ca> wrote:
> On 15/06/18 09:55 AM, Sebastian Gniazdowski wrote:
>>
>>   I could use the
>> money to e.g. uplift fast-syntax-highlighting.
>>
> I'd send you something but on that site it seems I have to log-in or join
> it, which I'd rather not.  Give me something simple and some bucks are on
> the way.
>

Re: 3 years of coding Zsh

[Daniel Shahaf]

Sebastian Gniazdowski wrote on Sun, 17 Jun 2018 14:41 +0200:
> I've updated PayPal button, it is in English and USD now. It's located
> on the top of Fast-Syntax-Highlighting page:
> 
> https://github.com/zdharma/fast-syntax-highlighting
> 

Sebastian, it is not acceptable to use this mailing list as an
advertisement vehicle for one's personal bank account.  I will not
dissect whether you have already crossed the line or are merely
flirting with it; I will simply ask you not to solicit donations again
on this list.

I seem to remember you have an IRC channel for your plugins.  The
/topic of that channel would be a fine place to solicit donations on.
You must remember that this list is not your personal blog slash
billboard; it is a symposium of the entire zsh community.

> 
> The URL pointed by the button is:
> 
[elided]
> 
> Any donation will be used for Zsh development,currently to uplift
> Fast-Syntax-Highlighting.

[Disclosure: I am a co-maintainer of z-sy-h, of which fast-syntax-
highlighting is a fork and competitor.  Having said that...]

Let's be absolutely clear here: fast-syntax-highlighting is a third
party project, of which Sebastian is AFAIK the sole maintainer.
Fast-syntax-highlighting is not in any way, shape, or form part of
zsh.  Fast-syntax-highlighting is not endorsed by zsh.  None of that is
anticipated to change.

As such, sir, your description of the donations as "will be used for zsh
development" is, at best, misleading: those moneys would NOT be used
for development of zsh itself.

Daniel

  P.S. To be clear, I don't mind one bit whether your personal projects
       have donations buttons on them... so long as the use of the
       donations is correctly described.

P.P.S. If someone actually wants to donate "to zsh development", send
       your money to whichever person, organization, or bitcoin address
       pws endorses.

Re: 3 years of coding Zsh

[Sebastian Gniazdowski]

I just felt that doing 7-8.5 commits per day not excluding holidays
for 2 years and counting 3rd, and at this occasion verifying dark
(undebugged) areas of Zsh code, what results in precious bug-fixes
(like solid sched) is enough justification to ask.

On 17 June 2018 at 16:21, Daniel Shahaf <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
> Sebastian Gniazdowski wrote on Sun, 17 Jun 2018 14:41 +0200:
>> I've updated PayPal button, it is in English and USD now. It's located
>> on the top of Fast-Syntax-Highlighting page:
>>
>> https://github.com/zdharma/fast-syntax-highlighting
>>
>
> Sebastian, it is not acceptable to use this mailing list as an
> advertisement vehicle for one's personal bank account.  I will not
> dissect whether you have already crossed the line or are merely
> flirting with it; I will simply ask you not to solicit donations again
> on this list.
>
> I seem to remember you have an IRC channel for your plugins.  The
> /topic of that channel would be a fine place to solicit donations on.
> You must remember that this list is not your personal blog slash
> billboard; it is a symposium of the entire zsh community.
>
>>
>> The URL pointed by the button is:
>>
> [elided]
>>
>> Any donation will be used for Zsh development,currently to uplift
>> Fast-Syntax-Highlighting.
>
> [Disclosure: I am a co-maintainer of z-sy-h, of which fast-syntax-
> highlighting is a fork and competitor.  Having said that...]
>
> Let's be absolutely clear here: fast-syntax-highlighting is a third
> party project, of which Sebastian is AFAIK the sole maintainer.
> Fast-syntax-highlighting is not in any way, shape, or form part of
> zsh.  Fast-syntax-highlighting is not endorsed by zsh.  None of that is
> anticipated to change.
>
> As such, sir, your description of the donations as "will be used for zsh
> development" is, at best, misleading: those moneys would NOT be used
> for development of zsh itself.
>
> Daniel
>
>   P.S. To be clear, I don't mind one bit whether your personal projects
>        have donations buttons on them... so long as the use of the
>        donations is correctly described.
>
> P.P.S. If someone actually wants to donate "to zsh development", send
>        your money to whichever person, organization, or bitcoin address
>        pws endorses.

Re: 3 years of coding Zsh

[Peter Stephenson]

On Sun, 17 Jun 2018 16:43:14 +0200
Sebastian Gniazdowski <sgniazdowski@gmail.com> wrote:
> I just felt that doing 7-8.5 commits per day not excluding holidays
> for 2 years and counting 3rd, and at this occasion verifying dark
> (undebugged) areas of Zsh code, what results in precious bug-fixes
> (like solid sched) is enough justification to ask.

The problem with that is none of the core zsh developers have
ever asked for contributions in a quarter century of its existence,
and all are unpaid volunteers.   So this does look a bit of hijack of
the list. In general, asking for contributions for a project of your
own is fine, of course.

So it would be appreciated if you could keep this to your own channels,
not the zsh ones.

Thanks.
pws

Re: 3 years of coding Zsh

[Sebastian Gniazdowski]

On 18 June 2018 at 17:00, Peter Stephenson <p.stephenson@samsung.com> wrote:
> So this does look a bit of hijack of
> the list. In general, asking for contributions for a project of your
> own is fine, of course.

Does the last sentence mean that posting about e.g.
fast-syntax-highlighting is OK? I always am little guilty when posting
about own project, but the features are often so cool (e.g. like
recursive eval highlighting) that I decide to post.

For the hijack, I hope I'll find mood in upcoming say 2 days to finish
debugging of <( ) Ctrl-C problems, just to make final of all this a
positive one. I'm currently sucked into FSH cool parts of code.

-- 
Best regards,
Sebastian Gniazdowski

Re: 3 years of coding Zsh

[Peter Stephenson]

On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 09:34:34 +0200
Sebastian Gniazdowski <sgniazdowski@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 18 June 2018 at 17:00, Peter Stephenson <p.stephenson@samsung.com>
> wrote:
> > So this does look a bit of hijack of
> > the list. In general, asking for contributions for a project of your
> > own is fine, of course.  
> 
> Does the last sentence mean that posting about e.g.
> fast-syntax-highlighting is OK?

Discussion of zsh code and features is always fine --- that certainly
includes code you've written yourself.  Then if you want to mention
here that you have your own support and release channels for your
projects, I think everyone's happy.

pws

about founding z developement of zsh

[Marc Chantreux]

hello people,

> The problem with that is none of the core zsh developers have
> ever asked for contributions in a quarter century of its existence,
> and all are unpaid volunteers.

well ... i am a zsh user since circa 2001 and always felt i didn't gave
zsh enough (same for perl, vim, linux, dwm, gnome and all those awesome
software that gave me 20 years of fun using floss).

i only have 1 patch in zsh, i don't really contribute to zsh but i try
to be active in the ecosystem

* support french users
* promote zsh in technical mailing lists, local meetups and
  other conferences
  (http://act.perlconference.org/tpc-2018-glasgow/talk/7338)
* start writing a zsh programming guide
  (https://github.com/eiro/zsh-programming-guide)
* start writing a plugin system with a very opiniated coding style
  (as perlish as we can) (https://github.com/zsh-uze)

basically, i try to spend some of the time i spared using zsh to promote
it because ... gosh ... when i have to read some bash/ksh/sh/posix code,
my eyes are bleeding and i really want to see more zsh outzere.

i started a list of things i would like to see appearing in zsh here

    https://github.com/eiro/zsh-programming-guide/blob/master/c/wishlist.md

and i guess some topics means huge work so unpaid patches coming time to
time are not enough.

and i wonder if this is worth a founding campain... and to be honnest,
sometimes i also wonder if a fresh start using a modern langage (like crystal or rust)
should be an option. there is the elvish shell
(https://github.com/elves/elvish) written in go as example but i really
think it took many wrong directions: basically, the perfect shell to me
should be zsh with

* nested structures
* namespaces
* lambdas
* function signatures (ideally with gradual typing where a type should
  be defined as 2 lambdas: serialize and deserialize)

but maybe this whole thing should have a dark side: if someone is paid
for this, why should i contrib for free, ones should ask.

regards,
marc

Re: about founding z developement of zsh

[René Wilhelm]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2370 bytes --]

Hello Zsh-people,

oh yes, I like Marcs ideas... please rewrite Zsh in Rust and give us
lambdas and the other things mentioned. That sounds like a proper (unpaid)
project for the next quarter-decade.

Greetings



On 19 June 2018 at 11:12, Marc Chantreux <eiro@phear.org> wrote:

> hello people,
>
> > The problem with that is none of the core zsh developers have
> > ever asked for contributions in a quarter century of its existence,
> > and all are unpaid volunteers.
>
> well ... i am a zsh user since circa 2001 and always felt i didn't gave
> zsh enough (same for perl, vim, linux, dwm, gnome and all those awesome
> software that gave me 20 years of fun using floss).
>
> i only have 1 patch in zsh, i don't really contribute to zsh but i try
> to be active in the ecosystem
>
> * support french users
> * promote zsh in technical mailing lists, local meetups and
>   other conferences
>   (http://act.perlconference.org/tpc-2018-glasgow/talk/7338)
> * start writing a zsh programming guide
>   (https://github.com/eiro/zsh-programming-guide)
> * start writing a plugin system with a very opiniated coding style
>   (as perlish as we can) (https://github.com/zsh-uze)
>
> basically, i try to spend some of the time i spared using zsh to promote
> it because ... gosh ... when i have to read some bash/ksh/sh/posix code,
> my eyes are bleeding and i really want to see more zsh outzere.
>
> i started a list of things i would like to see appearing in zsh here
>
>     https://github.com/eiro/zsh-programming-guide/blob/master/
> c/wishlist.md
>
> and i guess some topics means huge work so unpaid patches coming time to
> time are not enough.
>
> and i wonder if this is worth a founding campain... and to be honnest,
> sometimes i also wonder if a fresh start using a modern langage (like
> crystal or rust)
> should be an option. there is the elvish shell
> (https://github.com/elves/elvish) written in go as example but i really
> think it took many wrong directions: basically, the perfect shell to me
> should be zsh with
>
> * nested structures
> * namespaces
> * lambdas
> * function signatures (ideally with gradual typing where a type should
>   be defined as 2 lambdas: serialize and deserialize)
>
> but maybe this whole thing should have a dark side: if someone is paid
> for this, why should i contrib for free, ones should ask.
>
> regards,
> marc
>

Re: about founding z developement of zsh

[Marc Chantreux]

hello,

On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 12:19:41PM +0200, René Wilhelm wrote:
> oh yes, I like Marcs ideas... please rewrite Zsh in Rust and give us
> lambdas and the other things mentioned. That sounds like a proper (unpaid)
> project for the next quarter-decade.

of course it is unrealistic without a full time developper and that's
why i was talking about trying to fund someone ... i don't neither have this
much faith on it but noone knows without trying.

marc

Re: about founding z developement of zsh

[Sebastian Gniazdowski]

On 19 June 2018 at 11:12, Marc Chantreux <eiro@phear.org> wrote:
> hello people,
>
>> The problem with that is none of the core zsh developers have
>> ever asked for contributions in a quarter century of its existence,
>> and all are unpaid volunteers.
>
> well ... i am a zsh user since circa 2001 and always felt i didn't gave
> zsh enough (same for perl, vim, linux, dwm, gnome and all those awesome
> software that gave me 20 years of fun using floss).
>
> i only have 1 patch in zsh, i don't really contribute to zsh but i try
> to be active in the ecosystem
>
> * support french users
> * promote zsh in technical mailing lists, local meetups and
>   other conferences
>   (http://act.perlconference.org/tpc-2018-glasgow/talk/7338)
> * start writing a zsh programming guide
>   (https://github.com/eiro/zsh-programming-guide)
> * start writing a plugin system with a very opiniated coding style
>   (as perlish as we can) (https://github.com/zsh-uze)
>
> basically, i try to spend some of the time i spared using zsh to promote
> it because ... gosh ... when i have to read some bash/ksh/sh/posix code,
> my eyes are bleeding and i really want to see more zsh outzere.
>
> i started a list of things i would like to see appearing in zsh here
>
>     https://github.com/eiro/zsh-programming-guide/blob/master/c/wishlist.md
>
> and i guess some topics means huge work so unpaid patches coming time to
> time are not enough.
>
> and i wonder if this is worth a founding campain... and to be honnest,
> sometimes i also wonder if a fresh start using a modern langage (like crystal or rust)
> should be an option. there is the elvish shell

I think that fresh start is a heavy thing, I recall Linus once said
"creating by destroying first". I'm not sure if the message that
"fresh start" conveys it's actually this, to turn away from current
Zsh, i.e. "destroy" (heavy word, but the discussion Linus had, maybe
even about "rewriting in C++", was little emotional). To then engage
into heritage-free coding in something that is placed as opposite to
C.

I think different approach is maybe possible. Rust allows gradual
rewrite, there's a project gradually rewriting Emacs (Wilfred/remacs).
If this would be started, then – one association comes to my mind: it
would be like in many Anime/Manga, where characters change form, but
keep their identity, and also essential traits (new form still
expresses character's main properties). ;)

Zsh would keep its identity, it would be just expressed in a fresh
form. I think this would be good to many people, to act again like
when e.g. new completion system was coded (I assume it took some time
and there was some mobilization to quickly have better product than
the previous completion system).

-- 
Sebastian Gniazdowski
News: https://twitter.com/ZdharmaI
IRC: https://kiwiirc.com/client/chat.freenode.net:+6697/#zplugin

Re: 3 years of coding Zsh

[Ray Andrews]

> Sebastian, it is not acceptable to use this mailing list as an
> advertisement vehicle for one's personal bank account.

I don't make the rules here, and I'll not protest whatever the decision 
is on this matter, but my humble opinion is that Sebastian has done 
nothing wrong, and I myself was more than happy to send him something.  
The same would go for others.


> it is a symposium of the entire zsh community.

Including him. In my limited years on the list this is the first 
solicitation I've ever seen and I doubt we'll be flooded with them.
> As such, sir, your description of the donations as "will be used for zsh
> development" is, at best, misleading: those moneys would NOT be used
> for development of zsh itself.

I use quite a bit of Sebastian's work.  Whether it is 'official' or not, 
it sure is useful.

Again, this is just my two cents worth, I seek no argument or conflict.