Re: [9fans] Re: Future of Plan9

["matt" <matt@proweb.co.uk>]

sorry for being sucked in

> > We have gone through this before.
> And we ain't done yet, by a long shot.

how tiresome

>
> > I'm using it for my real world work, as others do.
>
> BFD, that is -not- the measure of success in Open Source. User base is
> (just as in real world commercial software).

That is an assumption *you* make.

I don't get this fascination with domination.

The measure of Plan 9's success [and indeed any project] can only be "does
it meet the objectives of it's creators?"

"Plan 9 began in the late 1980's as an attempt to have it both ways: to
build a system that was centrally administered and cost-effective using
cheap modern microcomputers as its computing elements. "

That's it. Any other metric you apply about success or failure is one you
have decided upon.
Criticising those who don't share your objectives for not doing so is pretty
childish.


I think it is lofty and noble that you wish to bring more people to plan9
but that is you scratching your itch.
I don't think for one minute it is the job of Russ, Rob, Dave et. al. to not
only develop, support and maintain plan9 in their own time in a decimated
lab owned by a company with financial woes where morale is lowered and the
future more uncertain than before but you want them out there drumming up
new users too! And if they go about this in a way you don't like you will
berate and insult them!


> The reality is that the Plan 9 community, as I've said before, is inbread
> and really not effective at developing a -thriving- user community.

I don't surround myself in bread and I am not inbred.

There have been over 75 contributors to the mailing list so far this year.
Are saying that all of them come from the same circle of users?

The day I installed Plan 9 for the first time I had not heard of anyone on
this list except Dennis [and I didn't know he was anything to do with it at
the time].

I can't be the only person here that's not from Bell Labs or associated
places.

Is it just me, am I the only outsider?

> You can write all the nifty code you want, if nobody uses it you've wasted
> your effort. A user community equals success, period.

Not true. code for codes sake to scratch any itch you like is a self
contained success

Nobody should *ever* use my irc bot but does that mean it's a failure and
writing it was a mistake?


> After two(!!!) years that's an embarassing statement to make,
> even for me. It didn't take but a little over a year from the
> first time Linus released Linux until the first user groups
> started. I have a hard time explaining in a rational, reasonable
> way to people who have a interest in using Plan 9 why this is. It
> in fact is one of the major turn-offs to get people to even try it.

Are you really telling me that you have met someone that said
"I would use Plan 9 only there aren't enough user groups in my area"

Last time it was the licence that stopped people using it, now it's the user
community.

I think it says more about the people you introduce Plan 9 to than anything
about Plan 9.

Linux filled a niche - a free unix like system.
Plan 9's niche is very different.

Feel free to make your own decisions about what you would like to see but
why the hostility towards those that don't share *YOUR* vision.


> - There are no(!!!) introductory documents for new users (don't
> worry, Hangar 18 is working on that now.

eh? I have a set of manuals & papers here and all the source code. That is
all I needed to get started.
Okay, it's a subset of the ideal set of documentation but it's more than I
got when I bought my car and a damn sight more than you get with Windows

> - The boot process is still one of the most aggravating issues for
> any new Plan 9 user (we're working on that also).

It wasn't the most aggravating issue for me so how can that be true for all
users?


> - The commercial outlet for Plan 9 has zero, nada, nil, null
> programs for fostering user communities.

let's get blogging

honestly,

"we are going to ...", "we are planning to ...", "why aren't you ..."

put up and people will shut up



M