[9fans] using sam

[9fans] using sam

[steve_kilbane]

On 24/08/98 20:35:18 Digby Tarvin  wrote:

> Anyone know of any other Plan9 utilities that are available
> for Unix systems? (other than sam, 9term, 9wm and rc?).

Arnold Robbins produced 9menu, which presents menus that exec
commands/scripts in the same style as 8.5/9wm.

Not strictly Plan 9, there is the es shell which adds closures, lexical
scoping, function spoofing, extensibility, etc.

> The mk docs mention Unix compatibility, but I havn't
> come across a Unix version.
I did enquire about mk's availability some years ago; prices were quoted. I
can't find the original discussions (been through too many mailer changes
since then), and as forsyth says, the situation has changed since then.

steve

[9fans] using sam

[Digby]

>
>The old AT&T Toolchest is now Lucent's (see
>www.lucent.com/ssg/html/toolchest.html).  The contents are available
>on a CD for $495.  As of a few months ago, the ultimate source of the
>CD was Unipress at +1 732 287 2100.
>
Forgot to mention - 'mk' does not seem to be amoungst the packages
included. Any chance it is available elsewhere?

Regards,
DigbyT
-- 
Digby R. S. Tarvin                                              digbyt@acm.org
http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk

[9fans] using sam

[Digby]

>
>The old AT&T Toolchest is now Lucent's (see
>www.lucent.com/ssg/html/toolchest.html).  The contents are available
>on a CD for $495.  As of a few months ago, the ultimate source of the
>CD was Unipress at +1 732 287 2100.
>
Great - thanks.

They still carry it, and I have placed my order...

Regards,
DigbyT
-- 
Digby R. S. Tarvin                                              digbyt@acm.org
http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk

[9fans] using sam

[geoff]

The old AT&T Toolchest is now Lucent's (see
www.lucent.com/ssg/html/toolchest.html).  The contents are available
on a CD for $495.  As of a few months ago, the ultimate source of the
CD was Unipress at +1 732 287 2100.

[9fans] using sam

[Gary]

    The default download version appears to be 13.36, but there
    is a 13.41 which presumably a pre-release version.

    Any recomendation which to do for?

Grab 0.13.41, it fixes a few bugs from ...36.

Any more questions about wily, send them to me
<gary@cs.usyd.edu.au> or <wilyfans@jli.com>

    Anyone know of any other Plan9 utilities that are available
    for Unix systems? (other than sam, 9term, 9wm and rc?).
    The mk docs mention Unix compatibility, but I havn't
    come across a Unix version.

That covers most of the nifty user interface bits.

The main thing I miss is the per-process name spaces,
but that's way harder to retro-fit.

It'd be sort of nice to have Alef/Limbo, too.

[9fans] using sam

[forsyth]

>>The mk docs mention Unix compatibility, but I havn't
>>come across a Unix version.

it's a shame that wasn't distributed separately.
at the time, it might have been available in the AT&T Toolchest,
but i don't know what happened to that when AT&T broke up.

[9fans] using sam

[Digby]

>
>> You mean by modifying the source, or is there some sort of
>> key mapping function I havn't found.?
>
>by modifying the source.
>
>> Do you recall where you got wiley from?
>
>the wily home page is: http://www.cs.su.oz.au/~gary/wily/
>
The default download version appears to be 13.36, but there
is a 13.41 which presumably a pre-release version.

Any recomendation which to do for?

Anyone know of any other Plan9 utilities that are available
for Unix systems? (other than sam, 9term, 9wm and rc?).
The mk docs mention Unix compatibility, but I havn't
come across a Unix version.

Regards,
DigbyT
-- 
Digby R. S. Tarvin                                              digbyt@acm.org
http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk

[9fans] using sam

[Digby]

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>From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk
>Message-Id: <199808231601.MAA09644@cse.psu.edu>
>To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
>Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 16:52:34 BST
>Subject: Re: [9fans] using sam
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>
>last night in a hurry i wrote
>
>> up/down movement in non-proportional text is included --
>
>of course i meant proportional (-spaced) text not non-proportional.
>cursor keys make some sense when things are laid out
>on a fixed-sized grid (including menu items),
>which is why they made sense in
>the vt100 and DOS worlds, from which they were imported
>into the bitmapped world.
>
>>my decision was to make it the null selection. there's also
>>the question of which end of the selection to use. i chose to
>>always use q0 (the start), but could see an argument for using
>
>that's what i did when i enabled left/right movement as an
>experiment, to see if it made people happier.
>the world is still a vale of tears, the weather here is worse than ever,
>and i conclude the experiment was a failure.
>
I should probably add that, when I was asking about cursor
movement, I was not really asking for 'arrow' or function keys.

I would use arrow keys in preference to a mouse if I just wanted
to skip over one character in a line, but in general I shun
binding functions to these keys on other editors. I avoid PC
keyboards when I can, so prefer not to assume they exist,
and it is a pain to find arrow/function keys on some laptops.

On emacs, I am happy with control-f/control-b/crontrol-p/control-n,
and on modal editors like vi, I usr hjkl to move around.

Perhaps I could get by with something like having ESC take me
to the sam window, from which I could move my cursor and then
return. That would still be easier than trying to align a mouse
pointer on a laptop in a bumpy train...

(although the lack of a standard for positioning things like escape,
tab, control etc is another source of frustration :-/)

Regards,
DigbyT
-- 
Digby R. S. Tarvin                                              digbyt@acm.org
http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk

[9fans] using sam

[Digby]

>
>> You mean by modifying the source, or is there some sort of
>> key mapping function I havn't found.?
>
>by modifying the source.
>
>> Do you recall where you got wiley from?
>
>the wily home page is: http://www.cs.su.oz.au/~gary/wily/
>
Thanks, I will give it a try.

Regards,
DigbyT
-- 
Digby R. S. Tarvin                                              digbyt@acm.org
http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk

[9fans] using sam

[forsyth]

last night in a hurry i wrote

> up/down movement in non-proportional text is included --

of course i meant proportional (-spaced) text not non-proportional.
cursor keys make some sense when things are laid out
on a fixed-sized grid (including menu items),
which is why they made sense in
the vt100 and DOS worlds, from which they were imported
into the bitmapped world.

>my decision was to make it the null selection. there's also
>the question of which end of the selection to use. i chose to
>always use q0 (the start), but could see an argument for using

that's what i did when i enabled left/right movement as an
experiment, to see if it made people happier.
the world is still a vale of tears, the weather here is worse than ever,
and i conclude the experiment was a failure.

[9fans] using sam

[Elliott.Hughes]

> You mean by modifying the source, or is there some sort of
> key mapping function I havn't found.?

by modifying the source.

> Do you recall where you got wiley from?

the wily home page is: http://www.cs.su.oz.au/~gary/wily/

-- 
http://users.ch.genedata.com/~enh/

[9fans] using sam

[forsyth]

>>I really havn't looked at acme. Assumed it was some sort of
>>integrated edit/compile environment that is so popular in the
>>DOS/Windows world, so avoided it. Sounds like maybe I should

no, acme is an integrating environment -- even ingratiating --
not an `integrated' one, and an acme-like environment is not found in the DOS/Windows world as far
as i know (outside the Oberon environment).

>What you really want is acme's chorded cut & paste. It's the One
>True Way. Didn't Plan 9 sam have this? 8.5 did, I'm sure.

mark wilkinson did made the acme-style chording available (nearly)
in sam; the changes should be somewhere on the plan9/sam
lists. 8-1/2 does already implement them.
acme users often have used them in 8-1/2 without realising
they are there -- they have become second nature.

elliott is right that i don't think all that much of adding
cursor keys to a mouse-based system: certainly once
up/down movement in non-proportional text is included --
the rules used by
the systems i've seen that combine them seem unpredictable to me.
i'm more neutral about left/right
movement (but what do you do with the selection?).

beginning to edit with the mouse is a bit like learning to drive:
at first it might seem strange and perhaps even dangerous
to have to move your hand away from the wheel to shift gears --
that's a common complaint (especially with manual transmission) --
but it's simple, and effective once you get the hang of it.
at some point you cease to notice and focus on the task at hand,
the road ahead.  when editing with the mouse, there's no doubt that
the acme chording rules make it much smoother and more
natural.

are there better, more natural approaches to editing?
almost certainly, but i suspect they don't involve
cursor keys, though they might require something quite
different from a mouse.

[9fans] using sam

[Digby]

>
>> The mouse paradigm works really well when I want to do
>> something that involves selecting arbitrary blocks of
>> text, but I find that I keep having to reach for the mouse
>> when I want do simple things like move the cursor, which I
>> find slows down my editing.
>
>It was easy to add the left and right cursor keys to acme. forsyth
>had a problem with this (and reckoned that rob did too) but I didn't
>much care. When others asked me for this, I added it. It turned
>out that I didn't use it much myself. Now I use wily (which has
>cursor keys by default) I find I cursor about a bit more. I can't
>fully explain this discrepancy.
>
You mean by modifying the source, or is there some sort of
key mapping function I havn't found.?

>> Cut and paste is a bit more tedious than just using vi in
>> combination with X's swipe and paste with middle button.
>> I guess I am looking for an 'insert highlighted text at
>> cursor' key or menu option.
>
>What you really want is acme's chorded cut & paste. It's the One
>True Way. Didn't Plan 9 sam have this? 8.5 did, I'm sure.
>
>> Perhaps I should be leaving myself in the sam window more?
>
>Try acme. I used to have my profile start acme rather than 8.5, and
>would only quit to use mothra or 5s ;-)
>

I really havn't looked at acme. Assumed it was some sort of
integrated edit/compile environment that is so popular in the
DOS/Windows world, so avoided it. Sounds like maybe I should
give it a look. I certainly havn't been converted to 8.5
yet.

>> Once there, I find I frequently have trouble getting it to accept
>> commands. Half the time it just accepts my command as text to be
>> stored in the buffer, so somehow I need a quick way of getting my
>> cursor to the end of the buffer where presumably commands will be
>> accepted (preferably without more mouse reaching)...
>
>There's the "Send" command on the menu. Write your command
>where you like, select it and "Send". Or select it using button 3 in
>acme.
>

Ah - had forgotten about send - thanks.

>> Is all of this normal behaviour, or is there a problem with
>> my sam setup?
>
>It's all fairly normal. sam and acme both require a certain amount
>of "user adjustment" (as does much of Plan 9) but, at least for
>acme, it's certainly worth it. I couldn't live without wily on Unix
>having gotten used to acme on Plan 9. Never really had much
>time for sam, but then I never explored structural regexps which
>were, I suppose, it's real advantage.
>
Do you recall where you got wiley from? I will have to set it
up and give it a try. It is still much easier to familiarise
myself with these things on a Unix machine, as that is what
I use when working.. and if I take the time to learn something,
I like to have it avialble in all my usual environments..

Thanks for your thoughts.

Regards,
DigbyT
-- 
Digby R. S. Tarvin                                              digbyt@acm.org
http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk

[9fans] using sam

[Elliott.Hughes]

> The mouse paradigm works really well when I want to do
> something that involves selecting arbitrary blocks of
> text, but I find that I keep having to reach for the mouse
> when I want do simple things like move the cursor, which I
> find slows down my editing.

It was easy to add the left and right cursor keys to acme. forsyth
had a problem with this (and reckoned that rob did too) but I didn't
much care. When others asked me for this, I added it. It turned
out that I didn't use it much myself. Now I use wily (which has
cursor keys by default) I find I cursor about a bit more. I can't
fully explain this discrepancy.

> Cut and paste is a bit more tedious than just using vi in
> combination with X's swipe and paste with middle button.
> I guess I am looking for an 'insert highlighted text at
> cursor' key or menu option.

What you really want is acme's chorded cut & paste. It's the One
True Way. Didn't Plan 9 sam have this? 8.5 did, I'm sure.

> Perhaps I should be leaving myself in the sam window more?

Try acme. I used to have my profile start acme rather than 8.5, and
would only quit to use mothra or 5s ;-)

> Once there, I find I frequently have trouble getting it to accept
> commands. Half the time it just accepts my command as text to be
> stored in the buffer, so somehow I need a quick way of getting my
> cursor to the end of the buffer where presumably commands will be
> accepted (preferably without more mouse reaching)...

There's the "Send" command on the menu. Write your command
where you like, select it and "Send". Or select it using button 3 in
acme.

> Is all of this normal behaviour, or is there a problem with
> my sam setup?

It's all fairly normal. sam and acme both require a certain amount
of "user adjustment" (as does much of Plan 9) but, at least for
acme, it's certainly worth it. I couldn't live without wily on Unix
having gotten used to acme on Plan 9. Never really had much
time for sam, but then I never explored structural regexps which
were, I suppose, it's real advantage.

-- 
http://users.ch.genedata.com/~enh/

[9fans] using sam

[Digby]

I am making an effort to feel more comfortable in a native
Plan9 environment by using SAM under X on my unix system.

There are a couple of things which I find a bit awkward,
which keep tempting me back to vi or emacs, which I assume
are probably symtematic of my not using sam optimally.
I would appreciate any tips from sam experts out there.
(And yes - I have read Rob Pike's article in the plan9
documents, and also the tutorial which comes with it..)

The mouse paradigm works really well when I want to do
something that involves selecting arbitrary blocks of
text, but I find that I keep having to reach for the mouse
when I want do simple things like move the cursor, which I
find slows down my editing.

Is there an easy way to move backwards or forwards (or up/down)
in a file using the keyboard? The arrow keys seem to jump whole
screens of information.

Cut and paste is a bit more tedious than just using vi in
combination with X's swipe and paste with middle button.
I guess I am looking for an 'insert highlighted text at
cursor' key or menu option.

Perhaps I should be leaving myself in the sam window more?
Is there a way to get to and from the sam window without using the mouse?
Once there, I find I frequently have trouble getting it to accept
commands. Half the time it just accepts my command as text to be
stored in the buffer, so somehow I need a quick way of getting my
cursor to the end of the buffer where presumably commands will be
accepted (preferably without more mouse reaching)...

Is all of this normal behaviour, or is there a problem with
my sam setup?

Any tips gratefully received.

Thanks,
DigbyT
-- 
Digby R. S. Tarvin                                              digbyt@acm.org
http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk