Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[rog]

> it is, but you have to throw the n button mouse away.  HOTAS has no
> chording because you don't want to be concentrating on getting the
> chord [i play guitar too] right when you should be concentrating
> on the kill or your own survival.

luckily, in acme, unlike in military fighter jet aeroplanes,
you always have Undo...

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Boyd Roberts]

> sigh, damned Reply-To: headers.  that was meant for boyd only,
> obviously.

this is probably an object lesson in bad user interface design.

windows hides all those headers that _i_ want to see.  one thing
i did do when i wrote a mail user agent was to order the 'important'
headers so they would always appear in the same order in the file
the message was kept.  if you needed the original message, you could
always pull it out of the audit trail, which had a verbatim copy
of the message.

windows also has two reply modes, when it only needs one.

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Boyd Roberts]

> sigh, damned Reply-To: headers.  that was meant for boyd only,
> obviously.

bugger, now i've done it too.

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Boyd Roberts]

> and you try and tell the young people of today that, and they won't believe you.

yeah, i think you booted the 11/34 with:

    173000g

but that was _typed_.  i think at one stage i had a summer job
with an 11/70 and you had to key in some part of the bootstrap.

that 11/70 ran system 4 from time to time!  they had the code too.

got damn itchy feet.  i'm sick of sitting around here cleaning up
one french administrative mess after another.

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[geoff]

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sigh, damned Reply-To: headers.  that was meant for boyd only,
obviously.


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From: Boyd Roberts <boyd@insultant.net>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:32:22 GMT
Message-ID: <9agt80$1hjv$1@news4.isdnet.net>

"Dan Cross" <cross@math.psu.edu> a crit dans le message news:
200104050116.VAA21585@augusta.math.psu.edu...
> Oh, sounds like DDT under ITS.  Where's TECO?  I want my EMACS....

teco?  you were lucky.  when i were a lad ...

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[geoff]

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just came across this again in pruning back my 9fans mail.

aye, we had to use tops-10 `d' and `e' (deposit and examine) commands.
and before that, enter programs in binary through the front panel.
and you try and tell the young people of today that, and they won't believe you.


[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1595 bytes --]

From: Boyd Roberts <boyd@insultant.net>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:32:22 GMT
Message-ID: <9agt80$1hjv$1@news4.isdnet.net>

"Dan Cross" <cross@math.psu.edu> a crit dans le message news:
200104050116.VAA21585@augusta.math.psu.edu...
> Oh, sounds like DDT under ITS.  Where's TECO?  I want my EMACS....

teco?  you were lucky.  when i were a lad ...

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

Colin DeVilbiss wrote:
> Speaking of, what is everybody's favorite way to deal with this in sam
> and acme?  The clearest thing I have come up with is creating a seperate
> ``scratch'' window and putting anything I might need later into it.
> Any other ideas?

Well, you could perhaps filter the selected region via sam's | command
through an external TECO program...

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Colin DeVilbiss]

> TECO was a pretty good text editor (C versions are available
> on the Net).  The main thing it had over, e.g., sam is multiple
> "Q-registers" instead of a single snarf buffer.  There are
> situations where those come in mighty handy.

Speaking of, what is everybody's favorite way to deal with this in sam
and acme?  The clearest thing I have come up with is creating a seperate
``scratch'' window and putting anything I might need later into it.
Any other ideas?

--
Colin DeVilbiss
crdevilb@mtu.edu

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
> *IYOU GOTTA BE KIDDING$EX$$

TECO was a pretty good text editor (C versions are available
on the Net).  The main thing it had over, e.g., sam is multiple
"Q-registers" instead of a single snarf buffer.  There are
situations where those come in mighty handy.

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Boyd Roberts]

"Vadim Vygonets" <vadik-9fans@plan9.vygo.net> a crit dans le message news:
20010406013630.C17281@vygo.net...
> Quoth Boyd Roberts on Wed, Apr 04, 2001:
> >     1) my user agent warned me that it might not work.
>
> s/might/will/ (or is it non-deterministic?)

exactly, hence my comment.

> >     2) rfc822 was design for 7 bit ascii
> >     3) mime is 4 docs of some 150 pages of unreadable trash
> >        (which i've read)

you had better read rfc 822 and the dates on it (rfc 1123 is necessay
too) and the dates and content of the 150 pages of the 4 mime docs.

> Here the days vary between medium rare and well done lately.

here the days vary between the illinformed and idiots generally.

--
Boyd Roberts        http://www.insultant.net        boyd@insultant.net

What do you know about surfing, Major?  You're from goddamn New Jersey.

    -- Lt. Colonel Kilgore

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Ozan Yigit]

rog@vitanuova.com writes:

> > Hands On Throttle And Stick:  all the useful stuff is at your fingertips
>
> that sounds like an argument *for* chording, rather than against.  "all
> the useful stuff is at your fingertips" is just how it feels with to me
> with the acme-style mouse chording...

what concerns me about the chord interface is that the stress issue
is overlooked. i avoid chord-related RSI by carefully avoiding too much
chording on wily. that slows me down, but avoids a much worse situation.
[i gave up emacs years ago because of left-hand control-stress.]

i also wanted to say earlier that sam is fine the way it is. its
popup menu is nearly as fast as chords, and does not appear to
induce stress.

oz
--
www.cs.yorku.ca/~oz	 | the factual burden of a science varies inversely
york u. computer science | with its degree of maturity. -- peter medawar

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Boyd Roberts]

<presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com> a crit dans le message news:
20010405164113.6511719A51@mail.cse.psu.edu...
> *IYOU GOTTA BE KIDDING$EX$$

nice one dave, but i ain't used teco in ~25 years:

    <insert>
    YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING
    <end text input>
    <exit with write>
    <end text input>
    <execute>

fixed a buggy teco port to a unix '11 once.
witten in '11 assembler, of course.  last
time i'd seen teco.

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Boyd Roberts]

<rog@vitanuova.com> a crit dans le message news:
20010405163938.64C15199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu...
> > Hands On Throttle And Stick:  all the useful stuff is at your fingertips
>
> that sounds like an argument *for* chording, rather than against.  "all
> the useful stuff is at your fingertips" is just how it feels with to me
> with the acme-style mouse chording...

it is, but you have to throw the n button mouse away.  HOTAS has no
chording because you don't want to be concentrating on getting the
chord [i play guitar too] right when you should be concentrating
on the kill or your own survival.

> isn't it possible for a successful experiment to turn into a useful
> piece of technology?

yes.  CDMA used by the GPS and soon (if not already used) by civilian
mobiles/cellsphone.

CDMA = Code Division Multiple Access

military tech, just like IP.

but i'm just a dumbass flamer...

--
Boyd Roberts        http://www.insultant.net        boyd@insultant.net

What do you know about surfing, Major?  You're from goddamn New Jersey.

    -- Lt. Colonel Kilgore

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Dan Cross]

In article <9agt80$1hjv$1@news4.isdnet.net> you write:
>"Dan Cross" <cross@math.psu.edu> a crit dans le message news:
>200104050116.VAA21585@augusta.math.psu.edu...
>> Oh, sounds like DDT under ITS.  Where's TECO?  I want my EMACS....
>
>teco?  you were lucky.  when i were a lad ...

Lucky?  I'm not so sure....  What follows is a recent unabridged
TECO editing session.  I don't remember TECO.  TECO defeated me
soundly.

: pipeline 22; ./te ~/.xsession-errors
*IYOUGOTTABEKIDDING$EX$$

?  No file for output
*ex$$

?  No file for output
*quit$$

?  Invalid insert arg
*dne$$

?  Pointer off page
*done$$

?  Pointer off page
*exit$$

?  No file for output
*x$$

?  Invalid Q-reg name
*stop$$

?  Search failure "top"
*please quite^H$$

?  No file for output
*please please quit$$

?  No file for output
*go away$$

?  Y command suppressed
*dear god no$$

?  Pointer off page
*^C^C: pipeline 23;

Perhaps it's best to leave these editor macros to the Linux crowd....

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Vadim Vygonets]

Quoth Boyd Roberts on Wed, Apr 04, 2001:
>     1) my user agent warned me that it might not work.

s/might/will/ (or is it non-deterministic?)

>     2) rfc822 was design for 7 bit ascii
>     3) mime is 4 docs of some 150 pages of unreadable trash
>        (which i've read)

But your MUA still chose not to use MIME.  IMO sending a message
in a format which can not transmit all the symbols in the message
is a bad thing for an MUA to do.

>     4) don't lecture me about character sets

I won't.

>     5) did you read what i wrote?

Yes, and?

>     6) another 'rare' day in paris

Here the days vary between medium rare and well done lately.

Vadik.

--
The ill-formed Orange
Fails to satisfy the eye:
Segmentation fault.

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[rog]

> Hands On Throttle And Stick:  all the useful stuff is at your fingertips

that sounds like an argument *for* chording, rather than against.  "all
the useful stuff is at your fingertips" is just how it feels with to me
with the acme-style mouse chording...

isn't it possible for a successful experiment to turn into a useful
piece of technology?

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[presotto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 29 bytes --]

*IYOU GOTTA BE KIDDING$EX$$

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1683 bytes --]

From: Boyd Roberts <boyd@insultant.net>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:32:22 GMT
Message-ID: <9agt80$1hjv$1@news4.isdnet.net>

"Dan Cross" <cross@math.psu.edu> a crit dans le message news:
200104050116.VAA21585@augusta.math.psu.edu...
> Oh, sounds like DDT under ITS.  Where's TECO?  I want my EMACS....

teco?  you were lucky.  when i were a lad ...

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Boyd Roberts]

<rog@vitanuova.com> a crit dans le message news:
20010405113524.462F919A1E@mail.cse.psu.edu...

> > read up on HOTAS.
>
> some sort of joystick?

Hands On Throttle And Stick:  all the useful stuff is at your fingertips
so that when it goes 'fangs out' you have everything you need and can fly
the a/c at the same time.

the F-16 uses it and IIRC the F15, except the E model has a RIO/GIB/WO.

i think the pilot with RIO/GIB/WO is a good idea, 'cos it divides up
the workload and you have another pair of eyes; essential in a dogfight.
most kills occur within visual range or the ROEs force visual id.

it may not be well done (as i don't know the F-16 that well) but the
principle is sound.

don't get me started on the Tornado IDS and those two fools who were
turned into heroes after a monumental clusterfuck.  just to get the
bombs 'off the rack' and _maybe_ on the target it takes 23 switches,
on the Tornado -- what a piece of junk.

--
Boyd Roberts        http://www.insultant.net        boyd@insultant.net

What do you know about surfing, Major?  You're from goddamn New Jersey.

    -- Lt. Colonel Kilgore

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[rog]

> read up on HOTAS.

some sort of joystick?

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Boyd Roberts]

"Randolph Fritz" <randolph@panix.com> a crit dans le message news:
slrn9cnov0.ki9.randolph@panix3.panix.com...
> But keep in mind that some people (like me) cannot safely use a
> three-button chording mouse.  And of course people with serious hand
> disabilities cannot use more than one mouse button at all.

chording indicates a 'lack of foresight' or an experiment.

when i saw acme being written it was an experiment.  if
i'm wrong i'm sure rob will rip into me.

read up on HOTAS.

--
Boyd Roberts        http://www.insultant.net        boyd@insultant.net

What do you know about surfing, Major?  You're from goddamn New Jersey.

    -- Lt. Colonel Kilgore

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Boyd Roberts]

"Dan Cross" <cross@math.psu.edu> a crit dans le message news:
200104050116.VAA21585@augusta.math.psu.edu...
> Oh, sounds like DDT under ITS.  Where's TECO?  I want my EMACS....

teco?  you were lucky.  when i were a lad ...

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Randolph Fritz]

On Wed, 4 Apr 2001 17:50:29 GMT, Russ Cox <rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com> wrote:
>	chording?  that just leads to morse code.
>
>I don't know.  Then we could set things up so
>that if you hold down F4, you can use the
>left and middle mouse buttons to toggle in
>commands to an in-memory kernel debugger.
>
>(Two-button mouse users would use Shift-F4
>and left and right mouse buttons.)
>

:-)

But keep in mind that some people (like me) cannot safely use a
three-button chording mouse.  And of course people with serious hand
disabilities cannot use more than one mouse button at all.

My hand and wrist tendonitis is mostly under control these days, but
Plan 9 (if I am anything less than scrupulously careful) can bring it
back; the only mouse clicks that are safe for me are the ones made
with two fingers. :-(

Randolph

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Dan Cross]

In article <20010404173459.116F519A09@mail.cse.psu.edu> you write:
>I don't know.  Then we could set things up so
>that if you hold down F4, you can use the
>left and middle mouse buttons to toggle in
>commands to an in-memory kernel debugger.
>
>(Two-button mouse users would use Shift-F4
>and left and right mouse buttons.)

Oh, sounds like DDT under ITS.  Where's TECO?  I want my EMACS....

	- Dan C.

;-P

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Russ Cox]

	chording?  that just leads to morse code.

I don't know.  Then we could set things up so
that if you hold down F4, you can use the
left and middle mouse buttons to toggle in
commands to an in-memory kernel debugger.

(Two-button mouse users would use Shift-F4
and left and right mouse buttons.)

Russ

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Boyd Roberts]

"Vadim Vygonets" <vadik-9fans@plan9.vygo.net> a crit dans le message news:
20010404001801.A26404@vygo.net...
> Quoth Boyd Roberts on Mon, Apr 02, 2001:
> > maybe you can read this, i don't know but it's on my keyboard:
> >     ?
> > the euro symbol.
>
> No, sorry.  You sent your message as ASCII (in fact, no MIME
> headers at all), so all I got is a question sign.
>
> The Euro symbol appears in ISO8859-15 (IIRC), which is the same
> as ISO8859-1 *except* it has the Euro symbol instead of some
> other character.
>
> Vadik.
>
> --
> To err is human, to moo bovine.

word up, pal.

    1) my user agent warned me that it might not work.
    2) rfc822 was design for 7 bit ascii
    3) mime is 4 docs of some 150 pages of unreadable trash
       (which i've read)
    4) don't lecture me about character sets
    5) did you read what i wrote?
    6) another 'rare' day in paris

--
Boyd Roberts        http://www.insultant.net        boyd@insultant.net

What do you know about surfing, Major?  You're from goddamn New Jersey.

    -- Lt. Colonel Kilgore

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Boyd Roberts]

"Randolph Fritz" <randolph@panix.com> a crit dans le message news:
slrn9chgv5.pdh.randolph@panix6.panix.com...

> Since you're working on the keyboard driver, allow me to suggest that
> you consider support for using keyboard/mouse chording.


chording?  that just leads to morse code.

    ... .- -.. ........ ... .- --

other problem is that if you can't type the characters you
can't work on it.

--
Boyd Roberts        http://www.insultant.net        boyd@insultant.net

What do you know about surfing, Major?  You're from goddamn New Jersey.

    -- Lt. Colonel Kilgore

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Vadim Vygonets]

Quoth Boyd Roberts on Mon, Apr 02, 2001:
> maybe you can read this, i don't know but it's on my keyboard:
>     ?
> the euro symbol.

No, sorry.  You sent your message as ASCII (in fact, no MIME
headers at all), so all I got is a question sign.

The Euro symbol appears in ISO8859-15 (IIRC), which is the same
as ISO8859-1 *except* it has the Euro symbol instead of some
other character.

Vadik.

--
To err is human, to moo bovine.

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Randolph Fritz]

On Mon, 2 Apr 2001 08:49:28 GMT, Boyd Roberts <boyd@planete.net> wrote:
>
>yep, plan 9 is too qwerty centric.  the typing of the accent
>before the character is how french keyboards work -- weird,
>cos you don't write it (by hand) like that.
>

It's a reflection of mechanical typewriter technology, like most
keyboard strangenessess; they're called dead keys.  The accent mark
would go down on paper, the paper carriage (as in carriage return)
would stay in place, and then the letter would go down and the
carriage would move to make space for the next letter.  Used, I
believe, thoughout Europe.

Since you're working on the keyboard driver, allow me to suggest that
you consider support for using keyboard/mouse chording.

Randolph

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Boyd Roberts]

<presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com> a crit dans le message news:
20010330135042.51CAA199F3@mail.cse.psu.edu...
> Not really, if your keyboard is producing latin1, then kbd.c in the kernel
> is going to screw it up because it'll mask off the hight bit and run the
> characters through kbtab in kbd.c.  Got a pointer to what one really
produces?

what they do is that the scan codes are standard and then they change the
keytops
and use s/w to map the scan code to latin-1.

i'd send along the scan code to rune mapping i did a while back if my laptop
hadn't died mysteriously last night.

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Boyd Roberts]

<presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com> a crit dans le message :
20010330135042.51CAA199F3@mail.cse.psu.edu...
> Not really, if your keyboard is producing latin1, then kbd.c in the kernel
> is going to screw it up because it'll mask off the hight bit and run the
> characters through kbtab in kbd.c.  Got a pointer to what one really
produces?

yep, plan 9 is too qwerty centric.  the typing of the accent
before the character is how french keyboards work -- weird,
cos you don't write it (by hand) like that.

i was doing fine with charles' code until 0x80 was 'special'
in the driver.  to type # i have to go:

    alt-graphic-3

3 = the 3 key.

maybe you can read this, i don't know but it's on my keyboard:

    ?

the euro symbol.

internationalisation is hard.  you need two people for each language.
both have to be native speakers and speak, write and know the other's
culture.

Re: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[presotto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 345 bytes --]

Not really, if your keyboard is producing latin1, then kbd.c in the kernel
is going to screw it up because it'll mask off the hight bit and run the
characters through kbtab in kbd.c.  Got a pointer to what one really produces?
If its a standard, we should just put both mappings in kbd.c and have a plan9.ini
parameter switch between them.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1648 bytes --]

From: Boyd Roberts <boyd@planete.net>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 08:37:40 GMT
Message-ID: <9a0394$r2d$1@news2.isdnet.net>

David Rubin <dlrubin@hotmail.com> a crit dans le message :
3AC22B4C.25F0953@hotmail.com...
>
> http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/presotto/kbdmap.c
>

has this been tested on a latin-1 keyboard where
you can type 8 bit chars?

[9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[David Rubin]

Boyd Roberts wrote:
> 
> David Rubin <dlrubin@hotmail.com> a crit dans le message :
> 3AC22B4C.25F0953@hotmail.com...
> >
> > http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/presotto/kbdmap.c
> >
> 
> has this been tested on a latin-1 keyboard where
> you can type 8 bit chars?

Not by me. Go for it.

	david

-- 
FORTRAN was the language of choice
for the same reason that three-legged races are popular.
	-- Ken Thompson, "Reflections on Trusting Trust"

[9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[Boyd Roberts]

David Rubin <dlrubin@hotmail.com> a crit dans le message :
3AC22B4C.25F0953@hotmail.com...
>
> http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/presotto/kbdmap.c
>

has this been tested on a latin-1 keyboard where
you can type 8 bit chars?

[9fans] Re: Keyboard mapping

[David Rubin]

ramon@tau.removeme.uab.es wrote:

>         The question is, is there any way to remap the keyboard layout,
> as I'm using a spanish layout keyboard?

Look at

http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/presotto/kbdmap.c

AFAIK, this can do it, although I haven't tried.

	david

-- 
FORTRAN was the language of choice
for the same reason that three-legged races are popular.
	-- Ken Thompson, "Reflections on Trusting Trust"