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From: Steve Kilbane <steve@whitecrow.demon.co.uk>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Rant (was Re: Plan9 and Ada95?)
Date: Thu,  8 Nov 2001 07:16:08 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <200111080716.HAA18670@localhost.localdomain> (raw)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 07 Nov 2001 16:34:47 EST." <20011107213502.4E8371998A@mail.cse.psu.edu>

I don't see tools like Perl or Python bringing more people into Plan 9,
particularly when faced with the mass of Windows users. Plan 9 is
about doing things a different way, with the implied assumption that the
difference arises from an attempt to improve things. If potential users
need their comfy feature set to attract them, then they're the wrong user
set. Plan 9 is implicitly targeted at people who are willing to try changing
how they work.

This is also one reason why concepts from Plan 9 (which includes manner of
thought as well as software models) has less impact on the outside world:
both the *nix worlds and the Windows worlds are significantly larger user
bases that are more into evolutionary change than revolutionary change.
Windows XP has only just dropped DOS; Linux and GNU are basically copies of
30-year-old systems. Such large user bases are inherently resistant to
change.

This is also one reason why gcc is the crufty behemoth it is, and ?c
isn't: gcc had to accept and deal with problems on many systems, while
?c could assume they'd go away, by being fixed elsewhere. As forsyth says,
portable compilers aren't inherently that nasty, but gcc itself has become
a large system, dealing with many scenarios, and thus encouraging evolution
rather than revolution. That's why it's a platypus.

steve




  parent reply	other threads:[~2001-11-08  7:16 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 198+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2001-11-07 21:34 anothy
2001-11-08  5:30 ` Lucio De Re
2001-11-08  5:43   ` George Michaelson
2001-11-08  7:07     ` Jim Choate
2001-11-08  7:40     ` Lucio De Re
2001-11-08 10:40       ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-11-08 20:15       ` Quinn Dunkan
2001-11-08  5:59   ` Andrey A Mirtchovski
2001-11-08  7:16 ` Steve Kilbane [this message]
2001-11-29  4:44 ` Boyd Roberts
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2003-03-10 13:13 [9fans] E attribute in libsec/port/x509.c Claude BONFANTI
2003-03-11 17:41 ` Eric Grosse
2003-03-12  9:33   ` [9fans] hardware support for the fs kernel Conor Williams
2003-03-12  9:52     ` Geoff Collyer
2003-03-12 10:01     ` Lucio De Re
2003-03-12 10:12       ` Geoff Collyer
2003-03-12 10:28         ` Lucio De Re
2003-03-12 17:15           ` Russ Cox
2003-03-13  7:59             ` Lucio De Re
2003-03-13 15:45               ` Russ Cox
2003-03-14  5:06                 ` Lucio De Re
2003-03-12 10:52         ` James A. Robinson
2003-03-12 11:11           ` Lucio De Re
2003-03-12 22:59             ` Geoff Collyer
2003-03-12 23:20               ` Jack Johnson
2002-09-21  2:01 [9fans] 9 in the news matt
2002-09-21 11:16 ` Lucio De Re
2002-09-21 15:21   ` Arnaud SAHUGUET
2002-09-21 15:57   ` Jack Johnson
2002-09-21 16:01   ` Ronald G Minnich
2002-09-21 21:55   ` Steve Kilbane
2002-10-01 12:45 ` matt
2002-10-03  1:47 ` [9fans] did a replica/pull, now "mk 'CONF='pc" fails? Eric Dorman
2002-03-27 20:12 [9fans] sam and ssh Geoff Collyer
2002-03-27 20:18 ` Lucio De Re
2002-03-27 20:31   ` Scott Schwartz
     [not found] <lucio@proxima.alt.za>
2001-04-23  5:53 ` [9fans] PGP Lucio De Re
2001-04-23  6:01   ` Scott Schwartz
2001-04-23 16:13     ` Dan Cross
2002-03-27 18:14 ` [9fans] sam and ssh Lucio De Re
2002-03-27 19:08   ` Scott Schwartz
2002-03-28  1:28   ` Micah Stetson
2002-03-27 20:15     ` Lucio De Re
2002-03-27 20:22       ` Lucio De Re
2002-03-27 20:36         ` Lucio De Re
2002-03-27 20:41           ` Lucio De Re
2002-04-08 12:47           ` peter huang
2002-03-10 23:59 [9fans] samuel Alex Danilo
2002-03-11  0:07 ` Alexander Viro
2002-03-11  7:44   ` Steve Kilbane
2002-03-11  0:45 ` Andrew Simmons
2002-03-11 10:10   ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-11-11 16:32 [9fans] Rant (was Re: Plan9 and Ada95?) presotto
2001-11-12 10:44 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-11-10 10:15 forsyth
2001-11-09 22:54 David Gordon Hogan
2001-11-09 22:46 David Gordon Hogan
2001-11-09 22:37 David Gordon Hogan
2001-11-09 22:26 David Gordon Hogan
2001-11-10  0:10 ` William Josephson
2001-11-10  8:29   ` Matthew Hannigan
2001-11-10  8:39     ` Andrey A Mirtchovski
2001-11-11  1:38       ` Steve Kilbane
2001-11-11  3:34         ` Dan Cross
2001-11-11 11:20           ` Steve Kilbane
2001-11-11 17:30             ` Dan Cross
2001-11-12 10:42           ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-11-11  8:25         ` paurea
2001-11-11 17:31           ` Dan Cross
2001-11-09 22:11 David Gordon Hogan
2001-11-12 10:41 ` martin.m.dowie
2001-11-09 14:01 forsyth
2001-11-09 13:54 forsyth
2001-11-12 10:32 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-11-09  7:41 Russ Cox
2001-11-09 17:27 ` Dan Cross
2001-11-08 18:03 anothy
2001-11-09 21:01 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-11-08 15:09 forsyth
2001-11-09 10:17 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-11-08 15:06 forsyth
2001-11-08 15:00 presotto
2001-11-08 12:49 rob pike
2001-11-09 10:09 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-11-12 10:34 ` Andrew Simmons
2001-11-13 10:26   ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-11-08 12:30 bwc
2001-11-08 12:58 ` Re[2]: " Matt
2001-11-09  0:06   ` Noah Diewald
2001-11-09  9:51 ` Taj Khattra
2001-11-08 12:05 nigel
2001-11-09 10:08 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-11-09 13:43   ` Andrey A Mirtchovski
2001-11-08  8:51 Russ Cox
2001-11-08  9:22 ` Lucio De Re
2001-11-08  6:45 anothy
2001-11-08  8:05 ` Lucio De Re
2001-11-08 10:36   ` Christopher Nielsen
2001-11-08 10:39 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-11-08 21:22   ` Matthew Hannigan
2001-11-09  0:30 ` Steve Kilbane
2001-11-09  7:02   ` George Michaelson
2001-11-09 15:52     ` Caffienator
2001-11-09 21:06     ` Boyd Roberts
2001-11-08  1:57 okamoto
2001-11-09  0:22 ` Dan Cross
2001-11-07 19:58 forsyth
2001-11-07 20:18 ` Lucio De Re
2001-11-07 19:25 forsyth
2001-11-07 20:14 ` Lucio De Re
2001-11-08 10:38 ` Caffienator
2001-11-07 18:56 David Gordon Hogan
2001-11-07 19:33 ` Lucio De Re
2001-11-08  1:43 ` Dan Cross
2001-11-29  5:01 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-11-07 17:54 [9fans] Re: Plan9 and Ada95? David Gordon Hogan
2001-11-07 18:26 ` [9fans] Rant (was Re: Plan9 and Ada95?) Lucio De Re
2001-11-08 10:39   ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-10-09 13:18 Plan 9 annoyances (was: Re: [9fans] mv vs cp) bwc
2001-10-10  8:57 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-10-10 10:02   ` Browsers (was: Re: Plan 9 annoyances (was: Re: [9fans] mv vs cp)) Lucio De Re
2001-10-10 18:38     ` Steve Kilbane
2001-10-11  8:31       ` John Murdie
2001-10-11 17:26         ` Steve Kilbane
2001-10-12  6:31         ` [9fans] Re: Browsers Boyd Roberts
2001-10-07 16:23 [9fans] mv vs cp jmk
2001-10-08  4:28 ` Lucio De Re
2001-10-08  4:49   ` Alexander Viro
2001-10-08  6:10     ` George Michaelson
2001-10-08  6:34       ` Alexander Viro
2001-10-08  6:49         ` George Michaelson
2001-10-08  7:00           ` Lucio De Re
2001-10-08  7:13             ` George Michaelson
2001-10-08  7:44               ` Alexander Viro
2001-10-08  7:28             ` Alexander Viro
2001-10-08  6:54       ` Lucio De Re
2001-10-08  7:10         ` George Michaelson
2001-10-08  8:28           ` Lucio De Re
2001-10-08  9:51     ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-10-08 10:30       ` Alexander Viro
2001-10-09  9:03         ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-10-09  9:33           ` Alexander Viro
2001-10-09 15:58             ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-10-09 16:43               ` davel
2001-10-10  8:49                 ` Ralph Corderoy
2001-10-10  8:49                 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-10-10  9:48                   ` davel
2001-10-11  9:10                     ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-10-11 10:54                       ` davel
2001-10-12  9:19                         ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-10-09 16:46               ` Alexander Viro
2001-10-10  8:50                 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-10-10 10:29                   ` Alexander Viro
2001-10-10  1:05               ` erik quanstrom
2001-10-10  2:15                 ` david presotto
2001-10-10  4:54                   ` Skip Tavakkolian
2001-10-10  8:30                 ` davel
2001-10-08 10:34       ` Boyd Roberts
2001-10-08  9:50   ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-10-08 11:13     ` Lucio De Re
2001-10-08  9:42 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-10-08 17:43 ` [9fans] rewriting paths [was: mv vs cp] Richard Uhtenwoldt
2001-08-18  7:38 [9fans] Sam question nigel
2001-08-18  8:31 ` Steve Kilbane
2001-08-20  8:57   ` Luis Fernandes
2001-08-20 11:10     ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-18 11:06 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-19  6:57 ` Lucio De Re
2001-08-19 10:54   ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-19 11:13     ` Lucio De Re
2001-08-19 12:02       ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-19 12:23         ` Lucio De Re
2001-08-19 16:17           ` Steve Kilbane
2001-08-19 20:57 ` Dan Cross
2000-11-13 20:19 [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ? anothy
2000-11-14  9:58 ` Wladimir Mutel
     [not found]   ` <mwg@alkar.net>
2000-11-14 22:33     ` Tom Duff
2000-11-14 22:41       ` Boyd Roberts
2000-11-14 22:41       ` Alexander Viro
2000-11-14 22:51         ` Boyd Roberts
     [not found]           ` <boyd@planete.net>
2000-11-14 23:02             ` Tom Duff
2000-11-20 10:55           ` Chris Locke
2000-11-20 10:56           ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2000-11-20 13:24             ` Boyd Roberts
     [not found]         ` <viro@math.psu.edu>
2000-11-14 23:00           ` Tom Duff
2000-11-14 23:15             ` Alexander Viro
2000-11-14 23:54           ` Tom Duff
2000-11-15  0:31             ` Alexander Viro
2000-11-15  0:38               ` Boyd Roberts
2000-11-01 20:47 [9fans] /n/smtp Russ Cox
2000-11-01 21:48 ` Boyd Roberts
2000-11-01 22:02   ` Boyd Roberts
2000-11-01 22:10     ` Scott Schwartz
2000-11-01 22:23       ` Boyd Roberts
2000-07-12  9:04 [9fans] file server problems ianb
2000-07-13  1:33 ` Eric Dorman
2000-07-13  2:28   ` Eric Dorman
2000-07-13  4:15     ` Lucio De Re
2000-07-13  4:33       ` Scott Schwartz
2000-07-13 12:19         ` Lucio De Re

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