[9fans] Fossil robustness

[9fans] Fossil robustness

[Adriano Verardo]

Hi all.

I'm building an industrial  application  hosted by several independent
cpu server,
each of them booted from a CFlash on sdD0.

The application doesn't write on sdD0 and there are no redirection on
local files
in the cpurc scripts.

In this particular situation fossil should be actually used read only so
allowing
to use write protected CF and/or to suddenly power off the system without
damaging the file system.

Instead, fossil writes on sdD0 (doesn't boot fom a write protected CF)
and the
power loss destroy the file system more than fifty-fifty.

Unfortunately I cannot guarantee stable/correct operating conditions.

Any suggestion ?

Thanks in advance

adriano

Re: [9fans] Fossil robustness

[maht]

On 20/04/2010 11:45, Adriano Verardo wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I'm building an industrial  application  hosted by several independent
> cpu server,
> each of them booted from a CFlash on sdD0.
>
> The application doesn't write on sdD0 and there are no redirection on
> local files
> in the cpurc scripts.
>
> In this particular situation fossil should be actually used read only
> so allowing
> to use write protected CF and/or to suddenly power off the system without
> damaging the file system.
>
> Instead, fossil writes on sdD0 (doesn't boot fom a write protected CF)
> and the
> power loss destroy the file system more than fifty-fifty.
>
> Unfortunately I cannot guarantee stable/correct operating conditions.
>
> Any suggestion ?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> adriano
>
Fossil is essentially a cache for Venti, the non-Venti special case is
what you are attempting to use.

Perhaps kfs / cws would be a better choice.

Or even booting from a CD.

Re: [9fans] Fossil robustness

[Adriano Verardo]

maht wrote:
> On 20/04/2010 11:45, Adriano Verardo wrote:
>> Hi all.
>>
>> I'm building an industrial  application  hosted by several
>> independent cpu server,
>> each of them booted from a CFlash on sdD0.
>>
>> The application doesn't write on sdD0 and there are no redirection on
>> local files
>> in the cpurc scripts.
>>
>> In this particular situation fossil should be actually used read only
>> so allowing
>> to use write protected CF and/or to suddenly power off the system
>> without
>> damaging the file system.
>>
>> Instead, fossil writes on sdD0 (doesn't boot fom a write protected
>> CF) and the
>> power loss destroy the file system more than fifty-fifty.
>>
>> Unfortunately I cannot guarantee stable/correct operating conditions.
>>
>> Any suggestion ?
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>> adriano
>>
> Fossil is essentially a cache for Venti, the non-Venti special case is
> what you are attempting to use.
>
> Perhaps kfs / cws would be a better choice.
I've made a customized install procedure copying from the standard one.
Where can i find
a procedure for kfs to copy from?  Can kfs be configured to be
absolutely insentive to hard power down ?
>
> Or even booting from a CD.
I've only a CF slot. And, in any case, the environment doesn't allow to
use mechanical devices.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] Fossil robustness

[erik quanstrom]

> I've made a customized install procedure copying from the standard one.
> Where can i find
> a procedure for kfs to copy from?  Can kfs be configured to be
> absolutely insentive to hard power down ?

"absolutely" is too strong.  if one turns off atime with
kfscmd/atime, it is pretty robust.  see mkfs(8) for some
tools.

but really, just get a ups.  you'll be much happier.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Fossil robustness

[Adriano Verardo]

erik quanstrom wrote:
>> I've made a customized install procedure copying from the standard one.
>> Where can i find
>> a procedure for kfs to copy from?  Can kfs be configured to be
>> absolutely insentive to hard power down ?
>>
>
> "absolutely" is too strong.  if one turns off atime with
> kfscmd/atime, it is pretty robust.  see mkfs(8) for some
> tools.
>
> but really, just get a ups.  you'll be much happier.
>
Oh, yes. It's true, but i can't and, in any case I cannot control the
operators :-(
> - erik
>
>
>
>

[9fans] updating 9vx root

[EBo]

what is the procedure for either updating the entire 9vx root, or setting up
and building all the special customizations to build an up to date system?

For background, I am running the newest 9vx/vx32 sources and have tried
various combinations of 9vx-0.12 (which is missing libc.a), the full tree that
was based on (a "pull -s /" overloads some customized program and renders the
root unbootable), root extracted from 9aton.iso (which gives me error messages
about not having kfs setup).

Thanks and best regards,

  EBo --

Re: [9fans] updating 9vx root

[Fernan Bolando]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 12:49 PM, EBo <ebo@sandien.com> wrote:
>
> what is the procedure for either updating the entire 9vx root, or setting up
> and building all the special customizations to build an up to date system?
>
> For background, I am running the newest 9vx/vx32 sources and have tried
> various combinations of 9vx-0.12 (which is missing libc.a), the full tree that
> was based on (a "pull -s /" overloads some customized program and renders the
> root unbootable), root extracted from 9aton.iso (which gives me error messages
> about not having kfs setup).
>
> Thanks and best regards,
>
have you tried replica/pull?
I have not used 9vx for sometime since I got my atom motherboard
working natively, But I remember doing a replica/pull to update my 9vx
installation. I did get a bunch of permission problem, if you do a
search in 9fans archive you should see an advice from andrey on how to
fix it.


--
http://www.fernski.com

Re: [9fans] updating 9vx root

[EBo]

Fernan Bolando <fernanbolando@mailc.net> said:

> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 12:49 PM, EBo <ebo@sandien.com> wrote:
> >
> > what is the procedure for either updating the entire 9vx root, or setting up
> > and building all the special customizations to build an up to date system?
> >
> > For background, I am running the newest 9vx/vx32 sources and have tried
> > various combinations of 9vx-0.12 (which is missing libc.a), the full tree that
> > was based on (a "pull -s /" overloads some customized program and renders the
> > root unbootable), root extracted from 9aton.iso (which gives me error messages
> > about not having kfs setup).
> >
> > Thanks and best regards,
> >
> have you tried replica/pull?
> I have not used 9vx for sometime since I got my atom motherboard
> working natively, But I remember doing a replica/pull to update my 9vx
> installation. I did get a bunch of permission problem, if you do a
> search in 9fans archive you should see an advice from andrey on how to
> fix it.

sorry I was not clear with the above.  Yes, but I used glenda's pull script.

I'm looking up andrey's comments now...

Re: [9fans] updating 9vx root

[Fernan Bolando]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 1:29 PM, EBo <ebo@sandien.com> wrote:
> Fernan Bolando <fernanbolando@mailc.net> said:
>
>> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 12:49 PM, EBo <ebo@sandien.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > what is the procedure for either updating the entire 9vx root, or setting up
>> > and building all the special customizations to build an up to date system?
>> >
>> > For background, I am running the newest 9vx/vx32 sources and have tried
>> > various combinations of 9vx-0.12 (which is missing libc.a), the full tree that
>> > was based on (a "pull -s /" overloads some customized program and renders the
>> > root unbootable), root extracted from 9aton.iso (which gives me error messages
>> > about not having kfs setup).
>> >
>> > Thanks and best regards,
>> >
>> have you tried replica/pull?
>> I have not used 9vx for sometime since I got my atom motherboard
>> working natively, But I remember doing a replica/pull to update my 9vx
>> installation. I did get a bunch of permission problem, if you do a
>> search in 9fans archive you should see an advice from andrey on how to
>> fix it.
>
> sorry I was not clear with the above.  Yes, but I used glenda's pull script.
>
> I'm looking up andrey's comments now...
>
>
Around the time Russ first announced 9vx, I remember reading that
updating 9vx was very similar to updating a native installation in
which case it should be through replica. I dont however remember
rendering my 9vx non-bootable after the update, so I am not really
sure what is going on your installation.


-- 
http://www.fernski.com

Re: [9fans] updating 9vx root

[yy]

2010/4/21 EBo <ebo@sandien.com>:
>
> what is the procedure for either updating the entire 9vx root, or setting up
> and building all the special customizations to build an up to date system?

See: http://9fans.net/archive/2008/07/118

I always start from the tree posted in that message, but you can also
follow the instructions to start from a cd.

--
- yiyus || JGL . 4l77.com

Re: [9fans] updating 9vx root

[EBo]

> > what is the procedure for either updating the entire 9vx root, or setting up
> > and building all the special customizations to build an up to date system?
>
> See: http://9fans.net/archive/2008/07/118
>
> I always start from the tree posted in that message, but you can also
> follow the instructions to start from a cd.

Sorry I was not clear.  http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/~rsc/plan9.tar.bz2 was the
one I was referring to by the full tree.

I have not however overloaded /dist/replica/client and /dist/replica/network
yet from a stock CD.  That is my next step.

  EBo --

Re: [9fans] updating 9vx root

[EBo]

> > See: http://9fans.net/archive/2008/07/118
> >
> > I always start from the tree posted in that message, but you can also
> > follow the instructions to start from a cd.
>
> Sorry I was not clear.  http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/~rsc/plan9.tar.bz2 was the
> one I was referring to by the full tree.
>
> I have not however overloaded /dist/replica/client and /dist/replica/network
> yet from a stock CD.  That is my next step.

update: I got the exact same coredump when I followed the above and replaced
/dist/replica/client and /dist/replica/network as suggested in that email.
The one interesting thing that did happen however, is that the kfs error I was
getting before went away.

Re: [9fans] Fossil robustness

[John Soros]

Hello Adriano,
Have you disabled all snapshotting features? Usiong open -r?
How are you starting fossil, what's your configuration?

--
John Soros


On Tuesday 20 April 2010 12:45:09 Adriano Verardo wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I'm building an industrial  application  hosted by several independent
> cpu server,
> each of them booted from a CFlash on sdD0.
>
> The application doesn't write on sdD0 and there are no redirection on
> local files
> in the cpurc scripts.
>
> In this particular situation fossil should be actually used read only so
> allowing
> to use write protected CF and/or to suddenly power off the system without
> damaging the file system.
>
> Instead, fossil writes on sdD0 (doesn't boot fom a write protected CF)
> and the
> power loss destroy the file system more than fifty-fifty.
>
> Unfortunately I cannot guarantee stable/correct operating conditions.
>
> Any suggestion ?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> adriano

Re: [9fans] Fossil robustness

[Adriano Verardo]

John Soros wrote:
> Hello Adriano,
> Have you disabled all snapshotting features? Usiong open -r?
> How are you starting fossil, what's your configuration?
>
>

Hi, John

fsys main open -AWVP -c 3000
srv fossil
srv -p fscons

on /dev/sdD0/fossil

open -r guarantees that fossil doesn't do physycal write at all or
prevent only user to w/create files ?

After a fatal power down fossil complains about "metadata corruption" or
"lost 386/init" or
or the corruption of some very first logical sectors.

adriano

Re: [9fans] Fossil robustness

[John Soros]

Yes, i've had a lot of problems with fossil when it gets killed. My issue was
with wikifs that had some sort of memory leak i suspect, it would fill up the
memory, and then fossil would crash and/or get corrupted. I had an idea for a
project to use mycroftiv's rootless kernel images and have a script check
whether fossil died or what, and if it did reformat it using latest venti
snapshot and reopen the root, but i don't know how involved that would be.
 I would think -r doesn't modify the filesystem if snapshotting is turned off,
but i am probably the wrong person to be asked...I currently don't even have
my plan9 system installed.
HTH




On Tuesday 20 April 2010 13:39:59 Adriano Verardo wrote:
> John Soros wrote:
> > Hello Adriano,
> > Have you disabled all snapshotting features? Usiong open -r?
> > How are you starting fossil, what's your configuration?
>
> Hi, John
>
> fsys main open -AWVP -c 3000
> srv fossil
> srv -p fscons
>
> on /dev/sdD0/fossil
>
> open -r guarantees that fossil doesn't do physycal write at all or
> prevent only user to w/create files ?
>
> After a fatal power down fossil complains about "metadata corruption" or
> "lost 386/init" or
> or the corruption of some very first logical sectors.
>
> adriano

Re: [9fans] Fossil robustness

[erik quanstrom]

On Tue Apr 20 06:46:54 EDT 2010, a.verardo@tecmav.com wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I'm building an industrial  application  hosted by several independent
> cpu server, each of them booted from a CFlash on sdD0.
>
> The application doesn't write on sdD0 and there are no redirection on
> local files in the cpurc scripts.
>
> In this particular situation fossil should be actually used read only so
> allowing to use write protected CF and/or to suddenly power off the system without
> damaging the file system.
>
> Instead, fossil writes on sdD0 (doesn't boot fom a write protected CF)
> and the power loss destroy the file system more than fifty-fifty.
>
> Unfortunately I cannot guarantee stable/correct operating conditions.

paqfs(4) seems ideal for this situation.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Fossil robustness

[Anthony Sorace]

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Both fossil and kfs seem like the wrong tool for your job. In
addition to the robustness questions, they (especially fossil)
include features you're not going to get anything out of in
your environment. If you use something like paqfs(4) or
sacfs(4) (not sure which is more appropriate) you'll get
safer operation and have a smaller system as well.


[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 201 bytes --]

[9fans] 9vx crashing

[EBo]

Just an FYI.  I've been working on getting 9vx running on a TinyCoreLinux USB
stick, and I have been having 9vx crash in odd ways and wanted to post a note
about it.

For starters, I am building 9vx from hg source and using the root from 9vx's
2008/7/1 release 9vx-0.12.  There are three points of possible interest:

1) the base root does not have libc.a which means that I can compile program,
but not link them.

2) I installed Erik's find utility and running it gave the error:

     find 2062: suicide: sys: trap: invalid opcode pc=0x00005001

   from inside 9vx, and:

     invalid opcode ff ff ba at eip 00005001

   in the linux terminal that spawned it.

3) I was able to resolve both problems by replace the Plan 9 root with one
copied from a recent 9atom.iso, however I am not finished testing that though.

  EBo --

Re: [9fans] 9vx crashing

[erik quanstrom]

> 2) I installed Erik's find utility and running it gave the error:
>
>      find 2062: suicide: sys: trap: invalid opcode pc=0x00005001
>
>    from inside 9vx, and:
>
>      invalid opcode ff ff ba at eip 00005001
>
>    in the linux terminal that spawned it.

that pc is in the floating point code.  clearly bogus.
as find doesn't do any floating point.

/sys/src/libc/port/strtod.c:139
 134					continue;
 135				}
 136				break;
 137			case 'e':
 138			case 'E':
>139				if(state == S2 || state == S4) {
 140					state = S5;
 141					continue;
 142				}
 143				break;
 144			}

- erik

Re: [9fans] 9vx crashing

[EBo]

> that pc is in the floating point code.  clearly bogus.
> as find doesn't do any floating point.

I have no idea why this is happening, only that it is and it is failing
consistently.

While I could spend time trying to tracing through the code to figure out what
is going on, I have opted for the moment to update the base root I am using as
the old one is just shy of two years old, and the newer one seem to run
correctly so far.  If this problem creeps up again I'll start debugging it in
earnest.

  EBo --

Re: [9fans] 9vx crashing

[Balwinder S Dheeman]

On 04/20/2010 11:46 PM, EBo wrote:
>> that pc is in the floating point code.  clearly bogus.
>> as find doesn't do any floating point.
>
> I have no idea why this is happening, only that it is and it is failing
> consistently.
>
> While I could spend time trying to tracing through the code to figure out what
> is going on, I have opted for the moment to update the base root I am using as
> the old one is just shy of two years old, and the newer one seem to run
> correctly so far.  If this problem creeps up again I'll start debugging it in
> earnest.

Try http://werc.homelinux.net/hacks/nano9/

Hope that helps,
--
Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman        Registered Linux User: #229709
Anu'z Linux@HOME (Unix Shoppe)        Machines: #168573, 170593, 259192
Chandigarh, UT, 160062, India         Plan9, T2, Arch/Debian/FreeBSD/XP
Home: http://werc.homelinux.net/      Visit: http://counter.li.org/

Re: [9fans] 9vx crashing

[ron minnich]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 1:39 AM, Balwinder S Dheeman
<bsd.SANSPAM@cto.homelinux.net> wrote:

> Try http://werc.homelinux.net/hacks/nano9/

That's neat, I'm going to have to try it now :-)

ron

Re: [9fans] 9vx crashing

[erik quanstrom]

> > While I could spend time trying to tracing through the code to figure out what
> > is going on, I have opted for the moment to update the base root I am using as
> > the old one is just shy of two years old, and the newer one seem to run
> > correctly so far.  If this problem creeps up again I'll start debugging it in
> > earnest.
>
> Try http://werc.homelinux.net/hacks/nano9/

what bug does this fix that you think you've
fixed that addresses this particular bug?

- erik

Re: [9fans] 9vx crashing

[Balwinder S Dheeman]

On 04/21/2010 05:05 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:
>>> While I could spend time trying to tracing through the code to figure out what
>>> is going on, I have opted for the moment to update the base root I am using as
>>> the old one is just shy of two years old, and the newer one seem to run
>>> correctly so far.  If this problem creeps up again I'll start debugging it in
>>> earnest.
>>
>> Try http://werc.homelinux.net/hacks/nano9/
>
> what bug does this fix that you think you've
> fixed that addresses this particular bug?

Sorry, forget to mention that I also spend a lot of time on figuring out
why newly build 9vx from hg was crashing both on FreeBSD and Linux, but
all in a vain (currently don't have access to an OS/X machine).

I'm not sure, if it was a correct fix, but removing -melf_i386 option
did the trick; hence a patch:

 diff -r 8184025094f4 src/Makefrag
--- a/src/Makefrag	Mon Oct 05 02:53:41 2009 -0400
+++ b/src/Makefrag	Fri Mar 12 22:16:57 2010 +0530
@@ -21,7 +21,7 @@
 # VX32_AR		:= vx32-ar
 # VX32_OBJCOPY	:= vx32-objcopy
 VX32_CC		:= gcc -m32
-VX32_LD		:= ld -melf_i386
+VX32_LD		:= ld
 VX32_AR		:= ar
 VX32_OBJCOPY	:= objcopy


I have GCC 4.4.3 and ld 2.20, both on FreeBSD 8.0-RELEASE and Debian
5.0.4 as well.

--
Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman        Registered Linux User: #229709
Anu'z Linux@HOME (Unix Shoppe)        Machines: #168573, 170593, 259192
Chandigarh, UT, 160062, India         Plan9, T2, Arch/Debian/FreeBSD/XP
Home: http://werc.homelinux.net/      Visit: http://counter.li.org/

Re: [9fans] 9vx crashing

[EBo]

> Sorry, forget to mention that I also spend a lot of time on figuring out
> why newly build 9vx from hg was crashing both on FreeBSD and Linux, but
> all in a vain (currently don't have access to an OS/X machine).
>
> I'm not sure, if it was a correct fix, but removing -melf_i386 option
> did the trick;

Without the -melf_i386 option I get the the following error:

ld  -o vxa/zlib/ezlib -Llibvxc -L/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.4/32/ -g
-L.  libvxc/vx32/crt0.o vxa/zlib/ezlib.vo vxa/zlib/compress.vo
vxa/zlib/deflate.vo vxa/zlib/trees.vo vxa/zlib/adler32.vo vxa/zlib/crc32.vo
vxa/zlib/zutil.vo -lc -lgcc
ld: skipping incompatible libvxc/libc.a when searching for -lc
ld: errno: TLS definition in /lib64/libc.so.6 section .tbss mismatches non-TLS
reference in vxa/zlib/ezlib.vo

Removing both the -melf_i386 and -mfp-ret-in-387 resulted in the same.

I'm using GCC 4.3.4 and ld 2.18 on Gentoo updated/synchronized daily.

I should also note that my hardware is an AMD x86_64

  EBo --

Re: [9fans] 9vx crashing

[ron minnich]

randomly changing build options is one approach to debugging but not
always effective :-)

ron

Re: [9fans] 9vx crashing

[EBo]

ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> said:

> randomly changing build options is one approach to debugging but not
> always effective :-)

true, true ;-)  I'm still waking up! <and in my best NASCAR announcers
voice-over>: Gentlemen, Start your tea-pot/coffee-makers! <and the crowd goes
wild>

Re: [9fans] 9vx crashing

[EBo]

> randomly changing build options is one approach to debugging but not
> always effective :-)

I also forgot to mention that the reason I tried that is that I noticed both
of those switches were missing from one of the Makefrag files I was reading
recently, so it was not completely random ;-)

Re: [9fans] 9vx crashing

[lucio]

> Try http://werc.homelinux.net/hacks/nano9/
>
> Hope that helps,

How does one install the stuff in that directory?  Specifically, what
handles *.xz files?

++L

Re: [9fans] 9vx crashing

[EBo]

lucio@proxima.alt.za said:

> > Try http://werc.homelinux.net/hacks/nano9/
> >
> > Hope that helps,
>
> How does one install the stuff in that directory?  Specifically, what
> handles *.xz files?

I tripped over that one too...  This might help with the *.xz files:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xz

I forget what all else I did when trying nano.  I ended up focusing back on
9atom, and Erik had just patched the source so that a "mk all" would compile
everything.  See ftp://ftp.quanstro.net/other/9atom.iso.bz2 if interested.
That is one of the source trees I'm playing with for setting up 9vx on
TinyCoreLinux and Gentoo.

hope that helps.

  EBo --

Re: [9fans] 9vx crashing

[lucio]

> I forget what all else I did when trying nano.  I ended up focusing back on
> 9atom, and Erik had just patched the source so that a "mk all" would compile
> everything.  See ftp://ftp.quanstro.net/other/9atom.iso.bz2 if interested.
> That is one of the source trees I'm playing with for setting up 9vx on
> TinyCoreLinux and Gentoo.
>
> hope that helps.

Sounds like something that ought to be on the wiki (where I seldom
look, I have to confess).  Do you think you could add an entry when
you're done?  And maybe let us or just me know?

++L

Re: [9fans] 9vx crashing

[EBo]

> > I forget what all else I did when trying nano.  I ended up focusing back on
> > 9atom, and Erik had just patched the source so that a "mk all" would compile
> > everything.  See ftp://ftp.quanstro.net/other/9atom.iso.bz2 if interested.
> > That is one of the source trees I'm playing with for setting up 9vx on
> > TinyCoreLinux and Gentoo.
>
> Sounds like something that ought to be on the wiki (where I seldom
> look, I have to confess).  Do you think you could add an entry when
> you're done?  And maybe let us or just me know?

sure.  what specifically would you like to see?

This is some of the background work for my GSoC and thesis work, so if any of
my proposals are accepted for GSoC then I'll be working on various aspects of
this.  If some reason that none of the proposals get excepted, then my thesis
research will need this for rudimentary toolchain.

  EBo --

Re: [9fans] 9vx crashing

[lucio]

> sure.  what specifically would you like to see?

Well, of course, the bit about xz would not go amiss.  I note that
Ubuntu doesn't offer xz utilities, so as soon as I have copies for my
installation (plan 9, ubuntu, netbsd 3.1) I'll let you know so you can
put that on the wiki as well.

I'll see later what else may be useful, haven't got very far yet :-)

++L

Re: [9fans] 9vx crashing

[Balwinder S Dheeman]

On 04/26/2010 09:52 AM, lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:
>> Try http://werc.homelinux.net/hacks/nano9/
>>
>> Hope that helps,
>
> How does one install the stuff in that directory?  Specifically, what
> handles *.xz files?

See http://tukaani.org/xz/

--
Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman        Registered Linux User: #229709
Anu'z Linux@HOME (Unix Shoppe)        Machines: #168573, 170593, 259192
Chandigarh, UT, 160062, India         Plan9, T2, Arch/Debian/FreeBSD/XP
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