[9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[cej]

??
++pac
 

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Alexander Sychev]

Hi!

What exactly do you mean?

I use Acme like a full UI without rio under Plan9.
And now I'm developing a new Acme-like window manager for Inferno that  
will support graphics.
I'm doing it very slowly, so results will be as soon as possible...

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:30:27 +0400, <cej@gli.cas.cz> wrote:

> ??
> ++pac
>



-- 
Best regards,
   santucco

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Eric Van Hensbergen]

Have you looked at Omero (part of Plan B)?

       -eric

On 10/23/06, Alexander Sychev <santucco@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> What exactly do you mean?
>
> I use Acme like a full UI without rio under Plan9.
> And now I'm developing a new Acme-like window manager for Inferno that
> will support graphics.
> I'm doing it very slowly, so results will be as soon as possible...
>
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:30:27 +0400, <cej@gli.cas.cz> wrote:
>
> > ??
> > ++pac
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
>    santucco
>

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Alexander Sychev]

Not yet. I'm going to take a look at it. Thanks!

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:56:45 +0400, Eric Van Hensbergen <ericvh@gmail.com>  
wrote:

> Have you looked at Omero (part of Plan B)?
>
>        -eric
>
> On 10/23/06, Alexander Sychev <santucco@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi!
>>
>> What exactly do you mean?
>>
>> I use Acme like a full UI without rio under Plan9.
>> And now I'm developing a new Acme-like window manager for Inferno that
>> will support graphics.
>> I'm doing it very slowly, so results will be as soon as possible...
>>
>> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:30:27 +0400, <cej@gli.cas.cz> wrote:
>>
>> > ??
>> > ++pac
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>>    santucco
>>

-- 
Best regards,
   santucco

RE: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[cej]

Yes, but i dont like cascading windows: why dont we just hide them, exposing their list in one of the 'windows'
BTW, is Omero portable to pure Plan9
i dont know, sorry, never tried,

thanks,
++pac.


-----Original Message-----
From: 9fans-bounces+cej=gli.cas.cz@cse.psu.edu [mailto:9fans-bounces+cej=gli.cas.cz@cse.psu.edu] On Behalf Of Eric Van Hensbergen
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 1:57 PM
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
Subject: Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

Have you looked at Omero (part of Plan B)?

       -eric

On 10/23/06, Alexander Sychev <santucco@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> What exactly do you mean?
>
> I use Acme like a full UI without rio under Plan9.
> And now I'm developing a new Acme-like window manager for Inferno that
> will support graphics.
> I'm doing it very slowly, so results will be as soon as possible...
>
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:30:27 +0400, <cej@gli.cas.cz> wrote:
>
> > ??
> > ++pac
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
>    santucco
>

RE: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[cej]

>What exactly do you mean?

getting rid of menus, and of rio, if possible. wopukld also *love* to see a single command window instead of taglines (maybe my fault, but I can only move to thhe beginning or end, but not really scroll through the tagline)

i had on my mind something like Native Oberon (*NOT* bluebottle ) UI... then, acme window could také the whole screen and windows would become panes uinder acme. onme would get an Ui coupled w/text-editor immediatelly.

now, the ui philosophy semms to me to be a bit split... between rio and acme,
e.g, we must redefine 'cd' to use it under acme ...
(my inspiration was: i would like to write a simple program to do measurements within an image, and send the values (in pixels) to an acme 'pane' (window, if you like). would really like to do that with acme, with commands instead of menus)

thanks,
++pac.

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Ronald G Minnich]

cej@gli.cas.cz wrote:
> 
>>What exactly do you mean?
> 
> 
> getting rid of menus, and of rio, if possible. wopukld also *love* to see a single command window instead of taglines (maybe my fault, but I can only move to thhe beginning or end, but not really scroll through the tagline)


it all sounds great until I realize I'm going to have to deal with tiled 
windows again. That's too depressing to think about on a laptop.

ron

RE: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[cej]

what about if all but one, or two windows are hidden, so we'd get only these tiled windows: command, list-of-hidden, current-working ?
we have some kind of tiled windows in acme, anyway. I don't perceive much problem with acme on laptop, but I might be biased using sxga+ display.

Best regards, 
++pac.


-----Original Message-----
From: 9fans-bounces+cej=gli.cas.cz@cse.psu.edu [mailto:9fans-bounces+cej=gli.cas.cz@cse.psu.edu] On Behalf Of Ronald G Minnich
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 5:09 PM
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
Subject: Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

cej@gli.cas.cz wrote:
> 
>>What exactly do you mean?
> 
> 
> getting rid of menus, and of rio, if possible. wopukld also *love* to see a single command window instead of taglines (maybe my fault, but I can only move to thhe beginning or end, but not really scroll through the tagline)


it all sounds great until I realize I'm going to have to deal with tiled 
windows again. That's too depressing to think about on a laptop.

ron

RE: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Joel Salomon]

> I don't perceive much problem with acme on laptop, but I might be
> biased using sxga+ display.

With the number of open panes acme encourages, I find it painful on a
800×600 monitor, cramped at 1024×768, and just barely comfortable at
1600×1200.  When I win the lotto I’ll buy me one of those 30"
2560×1600 home IMAX theaters ☺.

--Joel

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Russ Cox]

> With the number of open panes acme encourages, I find it painful on a
> 800×600 monitor, cramped at 1024×768, and just barely comfortable at
> 1600×1200.  When I win the lotto I'll buy me one of those 30"
> 2560×1600 home IMAX theaters ☺.

I often run on 1024x768 with a smaller font
and it's entirely workable (lucidasans/euro.8.font
and lucm/unicode.9.font).  I have run with even
smaller fonts in the past (lucidasans/unicode.7.font)
but I decided I liked the bolder two-pixel-width fonts
enough to give up some text visibility.

The best setup I've seen so far is to have acme
on a 1600x1200 or bigger screen by itself and
then have a second screen for all your other windows.
But my dual-1600x1200-LCD laptop hasn't arrived yet.

Russ

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Russ Cox]

While we're talking about pushing editors into
new contexts...

http://swtch.com/jsamterm/  (Firefox only, sorry)

If someone were feeling very macho I bet it would
be possible to make all of samterm run in JavaScript
and communicate using the usual sam protocol
tunnelled through HTTP to a regular sam back end.

Would give a whole new meaning to sam -r.

Russ

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[erik quanstrom]

Witness the power of the Dark Side.

On Wed Oct 25 13:24:08 EDT 2006, rsc@swtch.com wrote:
> While we're talking about pushing editors into
> new contexts...
> 
> http://swtch.com/jsamterm/  (Firefox only, sorry)
> 
> If someone were feeling very macho I bet it would
> be possible to make all of samterm run in JavaScript
> and communicate using the usual sam protocol
> tunnelled through HTTP to a regular sam back end.
> 
> Would give a whole new meaning to sam -r.
> 
> Russ

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Tad Hunt]

Dude,

you have way too much time on your hands

:-)

-Tad

P.S.  Can I chime in with the first bug report?  If I drag a selection 
past the last character on a line, the last character doesn't get 
selected (yes, you would think I have way too much time on my hands too, 
wouldn't you!).



Russ Cox wrote:
> While we're talking about pushing editors into
> new contexts...
> 
> http://swtch.com/jsamterm/  (Firefox only, sorry)
> 
> If someone were feeling very macho I bet it would
> be possible to make all of samterm run in JavaScript
> and communicate using the usual sam protocol
> tunnelled through HTTP to a regular sam back end.
> 
> Would give a whole new meaning to sam -r.
> 
> Russ

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Skip Tavakkolian]

> you have way too much time on your hands

javascript should be declared an attractive nuisance

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Paul Lalonde]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

We just need a javascript/ajax back end for GCC
;-)

Paul

On 25-Oct-06, at 11:07 AM, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:

>> you have way too much time on your hands
>
> javascript should be declared an attractive nuisance
>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin)

iD8DBQFFP6qWpJeHo/Fbu1wRAqX0AKDPvDhVbhhOVvK2Wqr70ea6KYhxqwCgwdNl
04lwKTrwPbRqXGdedbfyEVI=
=sPCK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[erik quanstrom]

first you need a js virtual machine.

- erik

>
> We just need a javascript/ajax back end for GCC
> ;-)
> 
> Paul
> 
> On 25-Oct-06, at 11:07 AM, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
> 
> >> you have way too much time on your hands
> >
> > javascript should be declared an attractive nuisance

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[rog]

> If someone were feeling very macho ...

... and it probably wouldn't be larger than the kind
of stuff that many people are using for AJAX these days.

i'd quite like to see a 9p/styx client in javascript.
assuming one can do that kind of two way stateful communication,
you could presumably do a little cpu client too (exporting /dev/cons
only, and maybe access to some local browser state.)
cryptographic libraries in javascript, anyone?
of course, it would be totally disgusting, but might be quite useful.

on the subject of samterm and acme, it'd be really nice to
have an equivalent of samterm for acme (mouse interaction
can be really sluggish when using drawterm or equivalent).
lots of work though.

i seem to remember rob mentioning a year or so back that he was working on
something similar (maybe a new editor) and that there were
three, maybe four, primitives in the protocol. a challenge i never
did solve... it'd be nice to know what they were, and whether
it might ever come to anything.

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Skip Tavakkolian]

> cryptographic libraries in javascript, anyone?

there are several. here's one.  i had reason to look into it recently.

http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/javascrypt.html

Re: Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[David Leimbach]

> The best setup I've seen so far is to have acme
> on a 1600x1200 or bigger screen by itself and
> then have a second screen for all your other windows.
> But my dual-1600x1200-LCD laptop hasn't arrived yet.
>
I make a rectangular window with winwatch, and start rio sessions,
named appropriately for different tasks and namespaces.  Then by
clicking on winwatch I have virtual desktops of a sort and only
sacrifice a bit of real estate for winwatch.

It's all started by scripts that run from my lib/profile too, so I
don't have to do any manual work beyond logging in.

Dealing with different screen resolutions kind of sucks though, it
could be that it's my rc scripting and understanding of the rio
control namespace isn't very good yet.



> Russ
>

Re: Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Sascha Retzki]

> 
> Dealing with different screen resolutions kind of sucks though, it
> could be that it's my rc scripting and understanding of the rio
> control namespace isn't very good yet.
> 
> 

Did you consider stealing some bits from glenda/-magic? There is some screenresolution-magic in lib/profile (and possible other places which I don't recall) to handle different screen resolution

Re: Re: Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[David Leimbach]

On 10/26/06, Sascha Retzki <sretzki@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> >
> > Dealing with different screen resolutions kind of sucks though, it
> > could be that it's my rc scripting and understanding of the rio
> > control namespace isn't very good yet.
> >
> >
>
> Did you consider stealing some bits from glenda/-magic? There is some screenresolution-magic in lib/profile (and possible other places which I don't recall) to handle different screen resolution
>
>

Good idea... I'll take a look.

Re: Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[rog]

> Dealing with different screen resolutions kind of sucks though, it
> could be that it's my rc scripting and understanding of the rio
> control namespace isn't very good yet.

possibly the first program i wrote when i first started using
plan 9 was to deal with this issue. i've attached it - it's tiny.
all it does is convert proportional coordinates [0..1] to screen
coords [0..max].

for instance,
	winpos 0.6 0.0 0.4 100p
gives a 100 pixel high rectangle that covers the right
40% of the screen.

i use it like this:

	window -r `{winpos 0 0.05 1 1} acme -l acme.dump

perhaps this might help?


#include <u.h>
#include <libc.h>

int makecoord(char*, int, int);
int getscreensize(int*, int*, int*, int*);

void
main(int argc, char **argv)
{
	int scrminx, scrminy, scrmaxx, scrmaxy;
	int minx, miny, sizex, sizey, maxx, maxy;
	/* usage: winpos xorg yorg xsize ysize */
	if (argc != 5) {
		fprint(2, "usage: winpos xorg yorg xsize ysize\n");
		exits("usage");
	}
	if (getscreensize(&scrminx, &scrminy, &scrmaxx, &scrmaxy) == -1) {
		fprint(2, "winpos: couldn't get screen size: %r\n");
		exits("no screen");
	}
	minx = makecoord(argv[1], scrminx, scrmaxx);
	miny = makecoord(argv[2], scrminy, scrmaxy);
	sizex = makecoord(argv[3], scrminx, scrmaxx);
	sizey = makecoord(argv[4], scrminy, scrmaxy);
	if (sizex > (scrmaxx - scrminx))
		sizex = scrmaxx - scrminx;
	if (sizey > (scrmaxy - scrminy))
		sizey = scrmaxy - scrminy;
	if (minx + sizex > scrmaxx)
		minx = scrmaxx - sizex;
	if (miny + sizey > scrmaxy)
		miny = scrmaxy - sizey;
	maxx = minx + sizex;
	maxy = miny + sizey;
	print("%d %d %d %d\n", minx, miny, maxx, maxy);
	exits(0);
}

int
makecoord(char *spec, int min, int max)
{
	if (spec[0] == 0)
		return 0;
	if (spec[strlen(spec) - 1] == 'p')
		return atoi(spec);
	return atof(spec) * (max - min) + min;
}

int
getscreensize(int *minx, int *miny, int *maxx, int *maxy)
{
	char buf[12*12+1];
	int fd;

	buf[sizeof(buf) - 1] = 0;
	fd = open("#i/draw/new", OREAD);
	if(fd < 0)
		return -1;
	if(read(fd, buf, sizeof buf - 1) != sizeof buf - 1){
		close(fd);
		return -1;
	}
	close(fd);
	*minx = atoi(buf+4*12);
	*miny = atoi(buf+5*12);
	*maxx = atoi(buf+6*12);
	*maxy = atoi(buf+7*12);
	return 0;
}

Re: Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Joel Salomon]

On 10/26/06, rog@vitanuova.com <rog@vitanuova.com> wrote:
> int
> getscreensize(int *minx, int *miny, int *maxx, int *maxy)
> {
>         char buf[12*12+1];
>         int fd;
>
>         buf[sizeof(buf) - 1] = 0;
>         fd = open("#i/draw/new", OREAD);
>         if(fd < 0)
>                 return -1;
>         if(read(fd, buf, sizeof buf - 1) != sizeof buf - 1){
>                 close(fd);
>                 return -1;
>         }
>         close(fd);
>         *minx = atoi(buf+4*12);
>         *miny = atoi(buf+5*12);
>         *maxx = atoi(buf+6*12);
>         *maxy = atoi(buf+7*12);
>         return 0;
> }

How would I get rio's size rather than the screen size, for example
for use in a rio subwindow?

--Joel

Re: Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Paul Hebble]

On Mon, Oct 30, 2006 at 02:05:02PM -0500, Joel Salomon wrote:
> How would I get rio's size rather than the screen size, for example
> for use in a rio subwindow?

Check the first 48 bytes of /dev/window and /dev/screen.

-- 
	Paul

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Ronald G Minnich]

so can you just post your neat setup?

thanks

ron

Re: Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[David Leimbach]

I guess you're referring to me.  I'll post it in a minute when I clean
it up a bit ;-).  It's one of those I stopped after lots of trial and
error things...

Dave

On 10/26/06, Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote:
> so can you just post your neat setup?
>
> thanks
>
> ron
>

RE: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[cej]

> But my dual-1600x1200-LCD laptop hasn't arrived yet.

do you mean 1600*1200 built-in LCD, or just support of external monitor of that resolution, like T23 does?? In case you know about 1600 or better internal LCD laptop, i would be pleased to know about the model, thanks,

++pac.

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Bruce Ellis]

i have a year and a half old dell insprion 6000 which fits the bill.

the 6500 is better.  but you buy when you buy.

brucee

On 10/27/06, cej@gli.cas.cz <cej@gli.cas.cz> wrote:
>
> > But my dual-1600x1200-LCD laptop hasn't arrived yet.
>
> do you mean 1600*1200 built-in LCD, or just support of external monitor of that resolution, like T23 does?? In case you know about 1600 or better internal LCD laptop, i would be pleased to know about the model, thanks,
>
> ++pac.
>
>

RE: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[erik quanstrom]

stinkpads like the a31p (avaliable cheep on ebay) had a 1600x1200 screen.

- erik

On Fri Oct 27 03:01:47 EDT 2006, cej@gli.cas.cz wrote:
> do you mean 1600*1200 built-in LCD, or just support of external monitor of that resolution, like T23 does?? In case you know about 1600 or better internal LCD laptop, i would be pleased to know about the model, thanks,
> 
> ++pac.

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Russ Cox]

> > But my dual-1600x1200-LCD laptop hasn't arrived yet.
>
> do you mean 1600*1200 built-in LCD

The newest Thinkpad T series high-end models
have 1600x1200 LCDs.  They're marginally larger
than the T23 was, but not significantly, and not nearly
so big as the A series.

But I said dual-1600x1200 LCD laptop,
meaning *two* built-in 1600x1200 LCDs.

Russ

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Paweł Lasek]

On 10/27/06, cej@gli.cas.cz <cej@gli.cas.cz> wrote:
>
> > But my dual-1600x1200-LCD laptop hasn't arrived yet.
>
> do you mean 1600*1200 built-in LCD, or just support of external monitor of that resolution, like T23 does?? In case you know about 1600 or better internal LCD laptop, i would be pleased to know about the model, thanks,

Eurocom (http://www.eurocom.com) Mobile Workstation line has 17.1"
1920x1200 widescreen model, the rest has 1680x1050 widescreen. I don't
know how they will work with Plan9 - I could buy a *new* car (and
pretty good one...) for a price of fully equipped Eurocom mobile
workstation ..... (However, I'd choose that D900K F-Bomb over Macbook
Pro 17" any time.... - their price is nearly identical in my case...)

> ++pac.



-- 
Paul Lasek

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Alexander Sychev]

Hi!

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:55:46 +0400, <cej@gli.cas.cz> wrote:

>
>
>> What exactly do you mean?
>
> getting rid of menus, and of rio, if possible. wopukld also *love* to  
> see a single command window instead of taglines (maybe my fault, but I  
> can only move to thhe beginning or end, but not really scroll through  
> the tagline)
>
> i had on my mind something like Native Oberon (*NOT* bluebottle ) UI...  
> then, acme window could také the whole screen and windows would become  
> panes uinder acme. onme would get an Ui coupled w/text-editor  
> immediatelly.
>
> now, the ui philosophy semms to me to be a bit split... between rio and  
> acme,
> e.g, we must redefine 'cd' to use it under acme ...

For what? If you would like to use a terminal, you should use 'win'.
I'm afraid I will fail your wishes.
I think Acme has a quite consistent UI with lot of wonderful ideas, I'm  
just going to add a graphics support and make some usability improvements  
I suppose are helpful (like a fullscreen mode, rows, maybe multiline tags,  
etc. ).
The backward compatibility with Acme is going to be stored as far as  
possible.

> (my inspiration was: i would like to write a simple program to do  
> measurements within an image, and send the values (in pixels) to an acme  
> 'pane' (window, if you like). would really like to do that with acme,  
> with commands instead of menus)

I think a such kind of things will be implemented.
>
> thanks,
> ++pac.
>



-- 
Best regards,
   santucco

RE: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[cej]

thanks for your explanation of your point. however, don't you feel that a single big command window with probably some king of addressing the commands where to go would be more elegant that the taglines? maybe one could open her/his guidefile in the cmd-window using them from there, not via snarf-paste into the proper tagline... maybe i'm a bit biased by using long pipelines of commands that sometime don't fit within the tagline, scrolling there is somewhat problematic. also, having opened 20+files, taglines are almost equivalent to a (non-scrollable) list of open windows.
Not to make you confused: I like acme very much, just trying to share some ideas that may finally render as idiotic/unnecessarry/inconsistent/whatever...

thanks, regards,
++pac.


-----Original Message-----
From: 9fans-bounces+cej=gli.cas.cz@cse.psu.edu [mailto:9fans-bounces+cej=gli.cas.cz@cse.psu.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Sychev
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 5:26 PM
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
Subject: Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

Hi!

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:55:46 +0400, <cej@gli.cas.cz> wrote:

>
>
>> What exactly do you mean?
>
> getting rid of menus, and of rio, if possible. wopukld also *love* to  
> see a single command window instead of taglines (maybe my fault, but I  
> can only move to thhe beginning or end, but not really scroll through  
> the tagline)
>
> i had on my mind something like Native Oberon (*NOT* bluebottle ) UI...  
> then, acme window could také the whole screen and windows would become  
> panes uinder acme. onme would get an Ui coupled w/text-editor  
> immediatelly.
>
> now, the ui philosophy semms to me to be a bit split... between rio and  
> acme,
> e.g, we must redefine 'cd' to use it under acme ...

For what? If you would like to use a terminal, you should use 'win'.
I'm afraid I will fail your wishes.
I think Acme has a quite consistent UI with lot of wonderful ideas, I'm  
just going to add a graphics support and make some usability improvements  
I suppose are helpful (like a fullscreen mode, rows, maybe multiline tags,  
etc. ).
The backward compatibility with Acme is going to be stored as far as  
possible.

> (my inspiration was: i would like to write a simple program to do  
> measurements within an image, and send the values (in pixels) to an acme  
> 'pane' (window, if you like). would really like to do that with acme,  
> with commands instead of menus)

I think a such kind of things will be implemented.
>
> thanks,
> ++pac.
>



-- 
Best regards,
   santucco

RE: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> however, don't you feel that 
> a single big command window with probably some king of addressing the 
> commands where to go would be more elegant that the taglines?

And thus begat Windows :-(

Acme is good at what it is good for.  It sucks at other things.  It will 
always suck at other things.  Just like other things will always suck at 
Acme.

But the last weeks list conversations have stirred a sense of nostalgia. 
Are there still-working versions of Oberon out there?

--lyndon

RE: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Joel Salomon]

> getting rid of menus, and of rio, if possible. wopukld also *love* to  
> see a single command window instead of taglines (maybe my fault,
> but I can only move to thhe beginning or end, but not really scroll
> through the tagline)

Seems you want to add graphics to sam, not acme.

--Joel

RE: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[cej]

> Seems you want to add graphics to sam, not acme.

>  --Joel

Unfortunately, I still don't see a reason why sam and acme couldn't be merged and be turned to a universal UI (with editing capabilities).
But, it is just my ignorance. Perhaps, someone could explain, please?

Thanks,
++pac

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Paul Lalonde]

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Because some people like the tag/command line per window (acme) and  
others like the single command window (sam)?

I occasionally use sam as a stream editor, but I couldn't imagine  
doing all my work in it.  The cut and paste mechanic feels so awkward  
compared to acme's.  Say...Does anyone know of a patch for OS X that  
makes chording work?  Then I could bind to copy and paste properly.

Paul

On 29-Oct-06, at 10:23 PM, <cej@gli.cas.cz> wrote:

>
>
>
>> Seems you want to add graphics to sam, not acme.
>
>>  --Joel
>
> Unfortunately, I still don't see a reason why sam and acme couldn't  
> be merged and be turned to a universal UI (with editing capabilities).
> But, it is just my ignorance. Perhaps, someone could explain, please?
>
> Thanks,
> ++pac
>

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Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[erik quanstrom]

there's either a define or a global in the p9p samterm that allows one to use acme 
chording.  i believe it's called CHORDING but i don't have p9p handy.

- erik

On Mon Oct 30 01:42:34 EST 2006, plalonde@telus.net wrote:
> Because some people like the tag/command line per window (acme) and  
> others like the single command window (sam)?
> 
> I occasionally use sam as a stream editor, but I couldn't imagine  
> doing all my work in it.  The cut and paste mechanic feels so awkward  
> compared to acme's.  Say...Does anyone know of a patch for OS X that  
> makes chording work?  Then I could bind to copy and paste properly.
> 
> Paul

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Russ Cox]

> Because some people like the tag/command line per window (acme) and
> others like the single command window (sam)?

You certainly won't see sam and acme merged into a single UI
that satisfies everyone.

> I occasionally use sam as a stream editor, but I couldn't imagine
> doing all my work in it.  The cut and paste mechanic feels so awkward
> compared to acme's.

It's just different.  I started out using sam and only switched to acme
to get button 3 while editing HTML, or for editing very large files,
and then I got hooked.  Even so, these days I do probably 50% acme on
local files, 50% sam -r on faraway files, and I don't notice the cut and
paste issue in sam.  (It probably helps that I type ESC to cut, so my
middle button menu is usually on paste already.)

I have toyed with the idea of building up some sam protocol tools,
including a multiplexor and a version of acme that uses a remote
sam as a back end.

> Say...Does anyone know of a patch for OS X that
> makes chording work?  Then I could bind to copy and paste properly.

See #define chording in
http://swtch.com/usr/local/plan9/src/cmd/samterm/main.c

Some people have seen it cause deadlocks.  Others apparently
use it all the time without problem.  I can't understand how it
could cause a deadlock if the non-chording code is correct,
but maybe the non-chording code avoids whatever race is
going on because there are fewer clicks flying around.

Russ

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Gabriel Diaz]

Hello

 > I have toyed with the idea of building up some sam protocol tools,
> including a multiplexor and a version of acme that uses a remote
> sam as a back end.
>

I will love this one, if that's a motivation to do it :-)

gabi

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Paul Lalonde]

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On 30-Oct-06, at 7:16 AM, Russ Cox wrote:
>> Say...Does anyone know of a patch for OS X that
>> makes chording work?  Then I could bind to copy and paste properly.
>
> See #define chording in
> http://swtch.com/usr/local/plan9/src/cmd/samterm/main.c

That will work for sam; I'm curious to know if there is an OS X tool  
that will let me bind mouse chords to mouse and keyboard actions.  It  
would be great if the reaction to a right click while dragging was to  
copy-current, and middle was to paste, in all of OS X.  I'll root  
around some today and see if I can find the right hooks.

Paul

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Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Ronald G Minnich]

cej@gli.cas.cz wrote:

> Unfortunately, I still don't see a reason why sam and acme couldn't be merged and be turned to a universal UI (with editing capabilities).
> But, it is just my ignorance. Perhaps, someone could explain, please?

well, rather than they explain why you can't do it, why don't you just 
go ahead and do it and show it to us?

thanks

ron

RE: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[cej]

>> Unfortunately, I still don't see a reason why sam and acme couldn't be merged and be turned to a universal UI (with editing capabilities).
>> But, it is just my ignorance. Perhaps, someone could explain, please?

>well, rather than they explain why you can't do it, why don't you just 
>go ahead and do it and show it to us?

it's *far* beyond my capabilities :-(((
++pac.

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Ronald G Minnich]

cej@gli.cas.cz wrote:
> 
>>> Unfortunately, I still don't see a reason why sam and acme couldn't be merged and be turned to a universal UI (with editing capabilities).
>>> But, it is just my ignorance. Perhaps, someone could explain, please?
> 
>> well, rather than they explain why you can't do it, why don't you just 
>> go ahead and do it and show it to us?
> 
> it's *far* beyond my capabilities :-(((


well, maybe you are selling yourself short.

Or, maybe it is not a sensible thing to do.

I wouldn't just say you can't do it.

ron

RE: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[cej]

>>>> Unfortunately, I still don't see a reason why sam and acme couldn't be merged and be turned to a universal UI (with editing capabilities).
>>>> But, it is just my ignorance. Perhaps, someone could explain, please?
>> 
>>> well, rather than they explain why you can't do it, why don't you just 
>>> go ahead and do it and show it to us?
>> 
>> it's *far* beyond my capabilities :-(((


>well, maybe you are selling yourself short.
>Or, maybe it is not a sensible thing to do.


Maybe. I'm not a UI designer. Even not a programmer. I might be a visioneer, or a fool. I'll first try to present my ideas, to know whether  they're not completely wrong. I'll send a link when the document is ready. Thanks for the attention you all gave me.

>I wouldn't just say you can't do it.
Thanks for a compliment ;-]
++pac.

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Tony Lainson]

The development branch of wmii (http://wmii.suckless.org) was I think 
moving in that direction last time I looked at it (I stopped caring a 
few months ago).

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[lucio]

> ??

I think that's a marvellous idea, but not for faint-hearted people
like me.  Count me in anyway.

++L

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Sascha Retzki]

I always wanted to do that, because I like the tagline-concept. I think it would be interesting if the tag would accept \n, spawn a newline, get a scroll-bar, and accept maximal three lines, but maybe that's just me.

My idea was to make something along the lines of 'win', like 'guiwin'. It would be in normal textmode till somebody opens /dev/draw, then switch to 'graphical mode', in which it just relays the picture to its own (acmes) /dev/draw - I have no idea how much things I must rewrite in acme for that, tho :-)

It sounds simple, tho - its just acme needs a few calls so that the application it runs can tell acme it is 'graphical', and arrange some things so that it can read a picture and display it. Acme tells the window its that x this pixels huge, and there we go.

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Sascha Retzki]

> My idea was to make something along the lines of 'win', like 'guiwin'.

On a similar note, is there any reason why raw console mode is not supported by win?

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Paul Lalonde]

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Is there something wrong with the current multi-line tag system?  It  
takes \n and makes the tag bigger, up and down arrow close and open  
the tag to/from one line.  I use this all the time to drop editing  
commands and various "menu bar" features.  And I can close it up when  
that window isn't in use (it closes when you maximize another window,  
too, which is right handy).

Paul

On 25-Oct-06, at 11:04 AM, Sascha Retzki wrote:

> I always wanted to do that, because I like the tagline-concept. I  
> think it would be interesting if the tag would accept \n, spawn a  
> newline, get a scroll-bar, and accept maximal three lines, but  
> maybe that's just me.
>
> My idea was to make something along the lines of 'win', like  
> 'guiwin'. It would be in normal textmode till somebody opens /dev/ 
> draw, then switch to 'graphical mode', in which it just relays the  
> picture to its own (acmes) /dev/draw - I have no idea how much  
> things I must rewrite in acme for that, tho :-)
>
> It sounds simple, tho - its just acme needs a few calls so that the  
> application it runs can tell acme it is 'graphical', and arrange  
> some things so that it can read a picture and display it. Acme  
> tells the window its that x this pixels huge, and there we go.
>

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Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[erik quanstrom]

that's p9p only.

- erik

On Wed Oct 25 14:19:32 EDT 2006, plalonde@telus.net wrote:
> Is there something wrong with the current multi-line tag system?  It  
> takes \n and makes the tag bigger, up and down arrow close and open  
> the tag to/from one line.  I use this all the time to drop editing  
> commands and various "menu bar" features.  And I can close it up when  
> that window isn't in use (it closes when you maximize another window,  
> too, which is right handy).
> 
> Paul

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Paul Lalonde]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Eek!  The patch should be portable; I don't recall any platform- 
specific stuff in my original hack, and Russ' version was even cleaner.

Paul

On 25-Oct-06, at 11:23 AM, erik quanstrom wrote:

> that's p9p only.
>
> - erik
>
> On Wed Oct 25 14:19:32 EDT 2006, plalonde@telus.net wrote:
>> Is there something wrong with the current multi-line tag system?  It
>> takes \n and makes the tag bigger, up and down arrow close and open
>> the tag to/from one line.  I use this all the time to drop editing
>> commands and various "menu bar" features.  And I can close it up when
>> that window isn't in use (it closes when you maximize another window,
>> too, which is right handy).
>>
>> Paul

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Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[erik quanstrom]

portable or not it's in the p9p version it is not in the plan9 version.

- erik

On Wed Oct 25 16:17:12 EDT 2006, plalonde@telus.net wrote:
> Eek!  The patch should be portable; I don't recall any platform- 
> specific stuff in my original hack, and Russ' version was even cleaner.
> 
> Paul
> 
> On 25-Oct-06, at 11:23 AM, erik quanstrom wrote:
> 
> > that's p9p only.
> >
> > - erik
> >
> > On Wed Oct 25 14:19:32 EDT 2006, plalonde@telus.net wrote:
> >> Is there something wrong with the current multi-line tag system?  It

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Tim Wiess]

> portable or not it's in the p9p version it is not in the plan9 version.

    i don't think portability was the issue.  there are a couple bugs
    in the implementation and last time i talked about it with Russ,
    he wanted to wait until those were resolved before merging the
    changes in P9.

Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Paul Lalonde]

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The remaining bugs, if I recall correctly, relate to font changes  
leading to mis-sized borders between windows.  I've not noticed them  
lately, so I'm wondering if they got fixed or if I just stopped  
noticing :-0

Paul

On 25-Oct-06, at 1:57 PM, Tim Wiess wrote:

>> portable or not it's in the p9p version it is not in the plan9  
>> version.
>
>     i don't think portability was the issue.  there are a couple bugs
>     in the implementation and last time i talked about it with Russ,
>     he wanted to wait until those were resolved before merging the
>     changes in P9.
>

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Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Sascha Retzki]

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Is there something wrong with the current multi-line tag system?  

Despite I did not know it even exists,... ^^

I can just do \n in /dev/acme/tag, right? Trying to press enter in the tag itsself (in the GUI) does not change a thing.

> It  
> takes \n and makes the tag bigger, 

Tagsize actually does not change for me.

> up and down arrow close and open  
> the tag to/from one line. 

Confirmed. That's cool. I must have missed that in the manpage :-/

>  I use this all the time to drop editing  
> commands and various "menu bar" features.  And I can close it up when  
> that window isn't in use (it closes when you maximize another window,  
> too, which is right handy).
> 
> Paul
> 
> On 25-Oct-06, at 11:04 AM, Sascha Retzki wrote:
> 
>> I always wanted to do that, because I like the tagline-concept. I  
>> think it would be interesting if the tag would accept \n, spawn a  
>> newline, get a scroll-bar, and accept maximal three lines, but  
>> maybe that's just me.
>>
>> My idea was to make something along the lines of 'win', like  
>> 'guiwin'. It would be in normal textmode till somebody opens /dev/ 
>> draw, then switch to 'graphical mode', in which it just relays the  
>> picture to its own (acmes) /dev/draw - I have no idea how much  
>> things I must rewrite in acme for that, tho :-)
>>
>> It sounds simple, tho - its just acme needs a few calls so that the  
>> application it runs can tell acme it is 'graphical', and arrange  
>> some things so that it can read a picture and display it. Acme  
>> tells the window its that x this pixels huge, and there we go.
>>
> 
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Re: [9fans] Anyone to try to convert Acme to full UI (w/graphics)

[Paul Lalonde]

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On 25-Oct-06, at 11:25 AM, Sascha Retzki wrote:

>
> Confirmed. That's cool. I must have missed that in the manpage :-/

Now that's a legitimate gripe - I didn't write a patch for manpage ;-(




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