[9fans] what a surprise

[9fans] what a surprise

[ron minnich]

"It looks like more issues with  Vista drains notebook batteries.
Using the Aero interface really eats into your notebooks battery life.
"

amazing. You build up a cpu-hungry interface and it is ... cpu hungry.
Ah, what a shock.

I keep touting the rio 'stone age GUI' to people, showing them my
laptop with linux and rio, but they do want their pretty pictures.

ron

Re: [9fans] what a surprise

[erik quanstrom]

some things look good because the work good.

- erik

> "It looks like more issues with  Vista drains notebook batteries.
> Using the Aero interface really eats into your notebooks battery life.
> "
> 
> amazing. You build up a cpu-hungry interface and it is ... cpu hungry.
> Ah, what a shock.
> 
> I keep touting the rio 'stone age GUI' to people, showing them my
> laptop with linux and rio, but they do want their pretty pictures.

Re: [9fans] what a surprise

[Paul Lalonde]

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I've been trying to think of ways to evangelize rio and acme.  It's a  
tough sell - there is no "new user" subset.
In particular, to be at all effective with rio (and especially acme)  
you need to be a capable command-line user and understand how to  
compose those primitives.  This means that no beginner will be able  
to pick up our beloved interface and get work done, even after giving  
them the 3-button low-down.  There just aren't any training wheels,  
and these days even expert users use the training wheels when in  
parts of the system they aren't familiar with.

I think it's a losing battle.

Paul



On May 4, 2007, at 12:17 PM, ron minnich wrote:

> "It looks like more issues with  Vista drains notebook batteries.
> Using the Aero interface really eats into your notebooks battery life.
> "
>
> amazing. You build up a cpu-hungry interface and it is ... cpu hungry.
> Ah, what a shock.
>
> I keep touting the rio 'stone age GUI' to people, showing them my
> laptop with linux and rio, but they do want their pretty pictures.
>
> ron

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Re: [9fans] what a surprise

[lucio]

> This means that no beginner will be able  
> to pick up our beloved interface and get work done, even after giving  
> them the 3-button low-down.

I've been thinking that Abaco looks just like the acme of the future.
Add tags across the top (I really find tags in FireFox helpful) and I
think rio, sam and acme can be rolled into a single GUI that others
would learn to appreciate.

But the target market is hardly going to be the multimedia or
game-playing home user.  Or the clerk in some faceless organisation.

++L

Re: [9fans] what a surprise

[Russ Cox]

> I've been thinking that Abaco looks just like the acme of the future.
> Add tags across the top (I really find tags in FireFox helpful) and I
> think rio, sam and acme can be rolled into a single GUI that others
> would learn to appreciate.

i've been playing with wmii and thinking the same thing
(probably minus the keyboard shortcuts).  it frustrates me
that the acme mouse gestures mean different things to 
wmii, but the general idea seems right.

russ

Re: [9fans] what a surprise

[lucio]

> i've been playing with wmii and thinking the same thing
> (probably minus the keyboard shortcuts).  it frustrates me
> that the acme mouse gestures mean different things to 
> wmii, but the general idea seems right.

I found wmii counter-intuitive, but that was way back, I have no idea
what it looks like today.  Abaco seemed nearer to my existing habits.
Again, I have not made extensive use of it, but the impression was
quite strong.

What I think swings my choice to Abaco is that it is Plan 9 native.
Others may well feel the exact opposite.

++L

Re: [9fans] what a surprise

[Steve Simon]

> In particular, to be at all effective with rio (and especially acme)  
> you need to be a capable command-line user and understand how to  
> compose those primitives.

I think this is true, however I do think there is a class of user who writes
applescript macros and Windows BAT or even VB who can relate to rc scripts
and acme/sam/rio.

Mainstream computer users who can appreciate the plan9 GUI environment are
not common but they do exist.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] what a surprise

[Kris Maglione]

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On Fri, May 04, 2007 at 03:58:49PM -0400, Russ Cox wrote:
>i've been playing with wmii and thinking the same thing
>(probably minus the keyboard shortcuts).  it frustrates me
>that the acme mouse gestures mean different things to 
>wmii, but the general idea seems right.

Yes, it frustrates many people, including myself. I'm working on it, and 
it's gotten closer in the -test branch. The grab boxes should work as 
expectes shortly.

-- 
Kris Maglione

A budget is a plan that falls apart when the plumber
has to make an emergency visit.

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Re: [9fans] what a surprise

[W B Hacker]

Steve Simon wrote:
>> In particular, to be at all effective with rio (and especially acme)  
>> you need to be a capable command-line user and understand how to  
>> compose those primitives.
> 
> I think this is true, however I do think there is a class of user who writes
> applescript macros and Windows BAT or even VB who can relate to rc scripts
> and acme/sam/rio.
> 
> Mainstream computer users who can appreciate the plan9 GUI environment are
> not common but they do exist.
> 
> -Steve
> 

Counterpoint:

I'll take the first as stipulated - IF qualifed with:

'... and have learned in, or adapted to, the acme/rio environment.'

IOW 'the appropriate sort of' capable CLI user..


But IMNSHO, the exact opposite applies to paragraph two!

- the more familiar with *any other* CLI environment, (possible exception of 
Oberon/Aos) the *more difficult* it is to adapt to acme/rio.

Or to accept the need to do, or value of, so doing. It just isn't immjediately 
obvious as to WHY SO.

A person with no significant CLI 'habits' to alter/unlearn would generally have 
an easier time learning acme/rio from a cold start than your exemplary 
'exeprienced' CLI'er. As was once the stregth of a Mac vs a 'pee sea'.

Too much to 'shed' before learning a new paradigm.

I don't think acme/rio vs, for example the comparably text-based, cut 'n paste 
to-execute 'commands-from anywhere usage' in native Oberon / Aos are anywhere 
near as different as Chinese and English (which are processed by entirely 
different parts of the brain - written OR spoken)..

BUT .. the *apparent* 'wrong handedness' of acme/rio vs 'all others' is a 
barrier, even to natively ambidextrous folk (ich).

Learning 9'ish mouse-chording and the rest of acme/rio just to explore 'plumber' 
and such may constitute as important and necessary step to a better productivity 
'fit' for Plan9 [1] as adapting to RPN was for forth ... but barrier these are 
to the newbie.

As with Chinese, English, Arabic, or Finnish - small children seem to have no 
problem learning at about the same age. So it isn't about what we can or cannot 
learn, or even about works or doesn't work.

It is about what best fits the local environment.

;-)

JM2CW

Bill Hacker

[1] I have come to view acme/rio & chording as an IDE suite specific to 
productive 9'ish devel - on which score I am not able to fault it - nor care to try.

Re: [9fans] what a surprise

[Bruce Ellis]

i have never corded. i just need a mouse that has 3 buttons to do my work.
i grabbed a couple in paris at FNAC 'cause they were obviosly stuff they
couldn't sell.  they were a few euros each.

chord away.  it's a personal choice.

brucee

On 5/5/07, W B Hacker <wbh@conducive.org> wrote:
> Steve Simon wrote:
> >> In particular, to be at all effective with rio (and especially acme)
> >> you need to be a capable command-line user and understand how to
> >> compose those primitives.
> >
> > I think this is true, however I do think there is a class of user who writes
> > applescript macros and Windows BAT or even VB who can relate to rc scripts
> > and acme/sam/rio.
> >
> > Mainstream computer users who can appreciate the plan9 GUI environment are
> > not common but they do exist.
> >
> > -Steve
> >
>
> Counterpoint:
>
> I'll take the first as stipulated - IF qualifed with:
>
> '... and have learned in, or adapted to, the acme/rio environment.'
>
> IOW 'the appropriate sort of' capable CLI user..
>
>
> But IMNSHO, the exact opposite applies to paragraph two!
>
> - the more familiar with *any other* CLI environment, (possible exception of
> Oberon/Aos) the *more difficult* it is to adapt to acme/rio.
>
> Or to accept the need to do, or value of, so doing. It just isn't immjediately
> obvious as to WHY SO.
>
> A person with no significant CLI 'habits' to alter/unlearn would generally have
> an easier time learning acme/rio from a cold start than your exemplary
> 'exeprienced' CLI'er. As was once the stregth of a Mac vs a 'pee sea'.
>
> Too much to 'shed' before learning a new paradigm.
>
> I don't think acme/rio vs, for example the comparably text-based, cut 'n paste
> to-execute 'commands-from anywhere usage' in native Oberon / Aos are anywhere
> near as different as Chinese and English (which are processed by entirely
> different parts of the brain - written OR spoken)..
>
> BUT .. the *apparent* 'wrong handedness' of acme/rio vs 'all others' is a
> barrier, even to natively ambidextrous folk (ich).
>
> Learning 9'ish mouse-chording and the rest of acme/rio just to explore 'plumber'
> and such may constitute as important and necessary step to a better productivity
> 'fit' for Plan9 [1] as adapting to RPN was for forth ... but barrier these are
> to the newbie.
>
> As with Chinese, English, Arabic, or Finnish - small children seem to have no
> problem learning at about the same age. So it isn't about what we can or cannot
> learn, or even about works or doesn't work.
>
> It is about what best fits the local environment.
>
> ;-)
>
> JM2CW
>
> Bill Hacker
>
> [1] I have come to view acme/rio & chording as an IDE suite specific to
> productive 9'ish devel - on which score I am not able to fault it - nor care to try.
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] what a surprise

[erik quanstrom]

> - the more familiar with *any other* CLI environment, (possible exception of 
> Oberon/Aos) the *more difficult* it is to adapt to acme/rio.

i doubt this is the case.  it wasn't for me.

- erik

Re: [9fans] what a surprise

[lucio]

>> - the more familiar with *any other* CLI environment, (possible exception of 
>> Oberon/Aos) the *more difficult* it is to adapt to acme/rio.
> 
> i doubt this is the case.  it wasn't for me.

Not even as bad as getting used to VI. There lies a benchmark, if
there was one.  And the fact that VI can become second nature is
enough to persuade me that icon-lovers will simply never know what
they are missing on the other side of the fence.

But the real crux lies in measurement and no one has yet suggested
what it is that ought to be measured here, nevermind how to measure
it.  If we could set down some criteria against which one rates a user
interface (I seriously doubt that popularity should be such a
criterion), at least we'd have the option of a meaningful discussion.
But I suspect that we are all voicing subjective opinions on some very
personal idea of "comfort".

++L

Re: [9fans] what a surprise

[W B Hacker]

lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:
>>> - the more familiar with *any other* CLI environment, (possible exception of 
>>> Oberon/Aos) the *more difficult* it is to adapt to acme/rio.
>> i doubt this is the case.  it wasn't for me.
> 
> Not even as bad as getting used to VI. There lies a benchmark, if
> there was one.

ACK,

Best fixed with replacement of /bin/vi with the binary of an editor.

Any editor. Even those that lisp...

;-)


 >  And the fact that VI can become second nature is

I think the legal profession calls those 'repeat offenders', psychologists 
'masochists'.

:-)

> enough to persuade me that icon-lovers will simply never know what
> they are missing on the other side of the fence.
>

..'alternative lifestyle' for that one...

I don't really care one way or the other about 'icons', and I do see the merits 
of some of the initially off-putting anomalies - IF one cares to stay around 
long enough, read and listen - to find out the 'why' of them.

But by no means all of them make equal sense, even after research...

It would be 'nice', for example, to have a screen that defaulted to scrolling UP 
as it filled instead of printing off the bottom of the view window....

Or a slider-bar on the same side of the window as the mouse and cursor manip 
keys *commonly* sit.

Or an (optional?) CLi history buffer.

And even a hardware TTY is smarter than to run its paper bass ackwards, hiding 
what I haven't yet read while preserving what I have already read....

..have yet to grok the 'why' of that one...

Mind - not because these things are right, wrong, sideways, or mandated by the 
Gods somehow.

But because, like flush toilets, most folks *expect* them to act a certain way.

Hard to get onboard with a different - possibly better - way of working if the 
first thing the new environment does is confuse a person with contrarian responses.

Shouldn't be rocket science to provide a less hostile tolset, if only for 
transition.

Yet it seems to not have been done, lo thjese many years.

And the 'why' of THAT is even harder to grok...

> But the real crux lies in measurement and no one has yet suggested
> what it is that ought to be measured here,

Presence of waste motion. or NOT.

Excessive mental/physical 'context switching' in wetware. or NOT.

 >  nevermind how to measure
> it.

'Therbligs' applied to swapping mouse-kbd-mouse, hands for starters.

The 'mental side is harder... possibly a suite of diverse tasks to key-up - 
timed tasks exercising a wide range of input techniques.

But these would need to be such as can be done with *potentially* the same total 
key / click / drag count in either the Plan9 way AND various 'other' ways, not a 
test of 'plumbing' vs ifconfig _ /etc/<??> edits, NFS / SMBFS mounts & such.

Those measure the OS architecture and toolset, not the 'hmi'.

And, sorry - they are not really 'married' to each other.
If they were, shell scripts would not exist.

> If we could set down some criteria against which one rates a user
> interface (I seriously doubt that popularity should be such a
> criterion),

Not sure. 'Popular' designs got that way by being generally learnable/acceptable 
to a great many 'casual' users, not 'coz the 'pro' particulalrly cared for them. 
And at least part of that relates to manual dexterity or lack thereof.

Really 'focused' users very often prefer methods that the general public 
consider weird, 'coz there is a payoff  - center-mounted accelerator pedals on 
race cars for either-foot heeel-and-to control, for example.

And acme/rio have some of that sort of flavor - for coders anyway.

> at least we'd have the option of a meaningful discussion.
> But I suspect that we are all voicing subjective opinions on some very
> personal idea of "comfort".
> 
> ++L
> 

Doubt that part would *ever* change - regardless of testing. Habits die hard.
After all - people are still buying cigarettes. And worse.

While it could *be* tested, (Google 'therblig' and 'Industrial Engineering'), 
there is probably no gain in going there.

It isn't that hard to 'go thou and do *otherwise*'.

Love acme/rio and use it as-is or simple replace or re-code it to something you 
like better.

Personalization is one of the neater things about software...

Bill

Re: [9fans] what a surprise

[Roman Shaposhnik]

On Fri, 2007-05-04 at 12:17 -0700, ron minnich wrote:
> "It looks like more issues with  Vista drains notebook batteries.
> Using the Aero interface really eats into your notebooks battery life.
> "
> 
> amazing. You build up a cpu-hungry interface and it is ... cpu hungry.
> Ah, what a shock.
> 
> I keep touting the rio 'stone age GUI' to people, showing them my
> laptop with linux and rio, but they do want their pretty pictures.

  Speaking of pretty pictures I have the following question for you
all: it seems quite evident that as human beings we need a bare minimum
of possessions in our apartments/houses to have a normal life. Yet,
we tend to be quite fond of all sorts of objects of art. They are
completely useless as far as any task at hand is concerned but
they are omnipresent. Why? 

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: [9fans] what a surprise

[Federico Benavento]

because people with no pragmatic criteria give them to us in our birthdays.

On 5/6/07, Roman Shaposhnik <rvs@sun.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-05-04 at 12:17 -0700, ron minnich wrote:
> > "It looks like more issues with  Vista drains notebook batteries.
> > Using the Aero interface really eats into your notebooks battery life.
> > "
> >
> > amazing. You build up a cpu-hungry interface and it is ... cpu hungry.
> > Ah, what a shock.
> >
> > I keep touting the rio 'stone age GUI' to people, showing them my
> > laptop with linux and rio, but they do want their pretty pictures.
>
>   Speaking of pretty pictures I have the following question for you
> all: it seems quite evident that as human beings we need a bare minimum
> of possessions in our apartments/houses to have a normal life. Yet,
> we tend to be quite fond of all sorts of objects of art. They are
> completely useless as far as any task at hand is concerned but
> they are omnipresent. Why?
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
>


-- 
Federico G. Benavento