Re: [9fans] long long warning

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[dmr]

Bushnell writes

 >  ... The cook of a GNU
 >  Free➤€ lunch lets you eat it, stir it into your hair, ...

This last is very much an insider joke.

	Dennis

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[George Michaelson]

> 
> This last is very much an insider joke.
> 
> 	Dennis

I would be regrettable if we all started discussing personal anguish
of various s/w peoples (sex or non-sex) lives on email wouldn't it?

-George

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

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dmr@plan9.bell-labs.com writes:

> Bushnell writes
> 
>  >  ... The cook of a GNU
>  >  Freeâž¾¤Âž  lunch lets you eat it, stir it into your hair, ...
> 
> This last is very much an insider joke.

Eek, I hadn't even intended that, but now that you point it out....
oy.

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[David Gordon Hogan]

> it isn't just 8c, by the way.
> fortunately, the whole set can be done lazily on demand.
> in fact, individual operators can be added lazily to any ?c.

7c (the alpha compiler) already handles ?: for long long --
trivially, as the alpha's registers are 64 bit.  This also means
that the majority of long long operations are handled
inline (the exception being division -- the alpha architecture
has no integer divide).

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[skipt]

Actually, it is more like your cat's hairball. (the software I mean)

At 01:18 PM 3/20/2002 -0500, markp@panix.com wrote:
>| > There may well be if you take the FSF definition of free.
>|
>| So a GNU Freeâ„¢ lunch is one that you are obligated to pass on to
>| others after eating it?  Or perhaps before eating it?
>
>somewhat distressingly, my cats have been known to apply that first
>definition to cat food.

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[markp]

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| > There may well be if you take the FSF definition of free.
|
| So a GNU Freeâ„¢ lunch is one that you are obligated to pass on to
| others after eating it?  Or perhaps before eating it?

somewhat distressingly, my cats have been known to apply that first
definition to cat food.

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[Russ Cox]

> I've coined the term GNU Recipe™ to cover this.

Sorry, but you're too late.  See Open Cola:

www.newscientist.com/hottopics/copyleft/copyleftart.jsp
www.opencola.com/products/3_softdrink/formula.shtml

Russ

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[forsyth]

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well, of course that's supposed to be so [free in the sense of libero not gratuito],
and is intended to be so, but despite FSF's best
efforts to propagate that view, there still seems to be confusion about it.
there was recently a note on the free-software-business list
that included a reference to an interview with Sean Gordon
	http://www.linuxandmain.com/essay/sgordon.html
and perhaps his experience isn't unique.

i suppose they could have called themselves The Liberal Software Foundation,
but then that wouldn't work: the Plan 9 licence is a liberal one, but doesn't
match the ideology demanded, which probably isn't.  i'm think i'm for Reasonable
Software myself, in general.


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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] long long warning
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 09:43:25 GMT
Message-ID: <87wuw8b1qb.fsf@becket.becket.net>

pb@research.bell-labs.com (Peter Bosch) writes:

> > Well, I don't support non-free systems anymore (where "free" has the
> > definition used by the FSF or the Debian Project).  
> 
> There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Ah, but there is such a thing as a libre lunch.

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

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geoff@collyer.net (Geoff Collyer) writes:

> > There may well be if you take the FSF definition of free.
> 
> So a GNU Free➤¢ lunch is one that you are obligated to pass on to
> others after eating it?  Or perhaps before eating it?

Nope.  It's one that you can eat however you want.  The cook of a GNU
Free➤¢ lunch lets you eat it, stir it into your hair, wash your tub,
give parts away to your friends, and to chemical analysis so you can
make more similar lunches elsewhere.  It comes with no restrictions
about where and when you may eat it, who you may eat it with, and the
like.

Thomas

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

pb@research.bell-labs.com (Peter Bosch) writes:

> > Well, I don't support non-free systems anymore (where "free" has the
> > definition used by the FSF or the Debian Project).  
> 
> There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Ah, but there is such a thing as a libre lunch.

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[nigel]

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I think it's that a GNU Free™ lunch is not free in the financial
sense, but if you sell someone lunch, you must also give them the
means to recreate the lunch, and to sell it to other people.  I've
coined the term GNU Recipe™ to cover this.

You can, of course, sell the lunch for outrageous sums.  The lunch
need not be any good either.  But it is Free™.

Yours in horrible anticipation of serious replies to this,

Nigel


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From: Geoff Collyer <geoff@collyer.net>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] long long warning
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 22:55:53 -0800
Message-ID: <20020320065639.7813419A7B@mail.cse.psu.edu>

> There may well be if you take the FSF definition of free.

So a GNU Free™ lunch is one that you are obligated to pass on to
others after eating it?  Or perhaps before eating it?

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[Geoff Collyer]

> There may well be if you take the FSF definition of free.

So a GNU Free™ lunch is one that you are obligated to pass on to
others after eating it?  Or perhaps before eating it?

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[Dan Cross]

> it's trivial by comparison (hello, dhog).

Hmm, I thought I saw dhog on the New York City subway a couple of days.
There was a tall, bald Australian standing near me talking to a really
short blond woman, but no tattoos.  Still, I did a triple take.  Which
I think freaked this poor guy out.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[Dan Cross]

> > Are you volunteering to port gcc?
> 
> Well, I don't support non-free systems anymore (where "free" has the
> definition used by the FSF or the Debian Project).  

It depends on what the meaning of ``is'' is.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[nigel]

There may well be if you take the FSF definition of free.

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[Peter Bosch]

> Well, I don't support non-free systems anymore (where "free" has the
> definition used by the FSF or the Debian Project).  

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[forsyth]

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>>i already mentioned lcc. :) actually, fixing 8c may be easier than
>>porting anything else...

it's trivial by comparison (hello, dhog).   lcc itself is fine but generating
assembly code is not particularly helpful, or indeed sensible, and it takes
a little work to generate the right form of binary input for the linkers,
for all platforms.  (early versions of lcc implemented the Plan 9 extensions
but that was removed years ago.  i used it once to compile the file server kernel
for a new platform, just for fun, after repairing its implementation of the extensions...)

it isn't just 8c, by the way.
fortunately, the whole set can be done lazily on demand.
in fact, individual operators can be added lazily to any ?c.


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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] long long warning
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:49:15 GMT
Message-ID: <vi41yehu1fr.fsf@blue.cs.yorku.ca>

Thomas Bushnell, BSG:

> presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com writes:
> 
> > We really could use a compiler with long long
> > implemented as inline ops.  
> 
> Fortunately, if you're not against things written elsewhere; that is,
> if you don't suffer from NIH syndrome, there is a well-regarded free C
> compiler out there that does implement long long properly.

i already mentioned lcc. :) actually, fixing 8c may be easier than
porting anything else...

oz
---
Qoylu' vIneHpu'be'chugh vIjatlhpu'be' - Klingon Proverb.

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[ozan s yigit]

Thomas Bushnell, BSG:

> presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com writes:
> 
> > We really could use a compiler with long long
> > implemented as inline ops.  
> 
> Fortunately, if you're not against things written elsewhere; that is,
> if you don't suffer from NIH syndrome, there is a well-regarded free C
> compiler out there that does implement long long properly.

i already mentioned lcc. :) actually, fixing 8c may be easier than
porting anything else...

oz
---
Qoylu' vIneHpu'be'chugh vIjatlhpu'be' - Klingon Proverb.

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

skipt@real.com writes:

> Are you volunteering to port gcc?

Well, I don't support non-free systems anymore (where "free" has the
definition used by the FSF or the Debian Project).  

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[skipt]

Are you volunteering to port gcc?

At 05:37 PM 3/18/2002 +0000, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote:
>Fortunately, if you're not against things written elsewhere; that is,
>if you don't suffer from NIH syndrome, there is a well-regarded free C
>compiler out there that does implement long long properly.

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[Thomas Bushnell, BSG]

presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com writes:

> We really could use a compiler with long long
> implemented as inline ops.  

Fortunately, if you're not against things written elsewhere; that is,
if you don't suffer from NIH syndrome, there is a well-regarded free C
compiler out there that does implement long long properly.

Thomas

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[ozan s. yigit]

presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com:

> We really could use a compiler with long long
> implemented as inline ops.

i wonder if lcc4 could be ported over as a secondary plan9 compiler; i do not
know how hard this would be; i assume there were versions in the past that
worked on plan9, due to fraser's time in the labs. its strictness may come
handy as well, in porting etc.

oz
---
The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head. -- terry pratchett

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[presotto]

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no

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From: Scott Schwartz <schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] long long warning
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:20:33 -0500
Message-ID: <20020315162033.23848.qmail@g.bio.cse.psu.edu>

| We really could use a compiler with long long
| implemented as inline ops.

Doesn't the linker inline them?

Re: [9fans] long long warning

[Scott Schwartz]

| We really could use a compiler with long long
| implemented as inline ops.

Doesn't the linker inline them?

[9fans] long long warning

[presotto]

Danger Will Robinson! Danger, Danger!

The Plan 9 long long implementation is at best a
convenience.  Because every op results in a subroutine
call, the performance is an order of magnitude worse than
it could be.  If you have the odd long operation to do,
it's useful.  Trying to do compute intensive work with
it is not playable.  For example, the extended arithmetic
package, libmp, does everything with unsigned longs.

We really could use a compiler with long long
implemented as inline ops.  I'ld volunteer but
my stack is already too deep.  Maybe in six
months.  If anyone could do it sooner, and make
the corners like ?: work, it would be appreciated.