Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Noah Evans]

----- Original Message -----
From: "boyd, rounin" <boyd@insultant.net>
Date: Monday, March 8, 2004 8:07 am
Subject: Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

> > Yes, but you can't expect people just to forget their cultural
> differences.
> > In Japan, addressing someone with their last name, but without a
> > "politeness" suffix is considered undignifying/rude/offensive 
> (take your
> pick).
> 
> depends on the situation.

Brief description of suffixes(I'm sure you know this boyd, this is for other people, not to patronize you):

sama = gods, really honored folks (i.e. kami[god]-sama)
san = normal polite suffix but inappropriate for teachers and medical doctors(always referred to as just "sensei")
kun = male diminuitive used by superiors to inferiors(e.g. at work I'm "Noah-kun")
chan = female diminuitive also works for boyfriends, children and pets.

using a last name without a suffix is disrespectful because it's something like saying "that guy roberts", meaning that you don't really care for the person. First names, on the other hand, are an indication of familiarity(and can also be rude if used in the wrong context[e.g. to bosses and superiors]). 


Noah

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz]

> kun = male diminuitive used by superiors to inferiors(e.g. at work I'm "Noah-kun")

I thought くん (kun) was also for colleages (for example for a colleage at university)
Kenji what do you say?.

ゴルカ				

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[David Presotto]

Boyd forgot one, -ejit, as in Boyd-ejit

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[boyd, rounin]

> I thought くん (kun) was also for colleages (for example for a colleage at
university)

right, when you're ~ 'equals'.

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[boyd, rounin]

> Boyd forgot one, -ejit, as in Boyd-ejit

aye see you, jimmy!

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[boyd, rounin]

> Brief description of suffixes(I'm sure you know this boyd, this is for
other people, not to patronize you):

you don't know me very well ;)

> sama = gods, really honored folks (i.e. kami[god]-sama)

yes, go-chisousama deshita [de gozaimashita] is a good one
when you leave a restaurant.  freaks 'em out.

kami is also 'divine' and 'paper' (but different kanji).

> chan = female diminuitive also works for boyfriends, children and pets.

forgot about that one.

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[imp123]

q
David Jeffers
mailto: imp123@verizon.net

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Kenji Okamoto]

>> kun = male diminuitive used by superiors to inferiors(e.g. at work I'm "Noah-kun")
> 
> I thought くん (kun) was also for colleages (for example for a colleage at university)
> Kenji what do you say?.

One of my friend in my youth said everybody as xxx-kun indicating some special
friendliness.   However, it depended on his special capability when he said so.
He was always said so with _smile_.   くん is usually attached from a senior 先輩.
It's not easy to use くん here.  You must be very careful when you use it.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Charles Forsyth]

>>I say let's all just use our public key (properly issued) and be done with 
>>all the inscrutable etiquette!

i'm afraid it's a common mistake, encouraged by 'orrible x.509, to suppose
`public key' should be preceded by the definite article.  the second common
mistake relates to `properly issued'; similar cause i think.

a splendid idea that has nearly been ruined by x.*

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Kenji Okamoto]

> I had the impression that Japan was one of those cultures where names are
> of the form 'family given' vs 'given family'.  Is this correct?
> 
> If so,  then it can at times be difficult to know which name is the family
> name and which is the given one [1].  i.e. in the face of some people
> presenting their names in their 'natural' order and some presenting them
> in our 'natural' order.

There is a rule how to distinguish this, for an example, a member of this
list writes his name as
YAMANASHI Takeshi
here, he may be proud of being Japanese and probably wants to express
it by using formal expression of Japanese names.   In this case, please
remember his surname is written using capital letter only.
I write my name KenJi Okamoto, which is de-facto standard from the time
Japan accepted Western calture about 150 years ago.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[9nut]

> and know I'm wondering myself how to _pronounces_
> something all-caps, e.g. when meeting in person...

IGOR: Frederick Frankenstein?
FREDDY: Fron kon steen!
IGOR: Are you putting me on?
FREDDY: No, it's pronounced Fron konsteen.
IGOR: And do you also say Fro dereck?
FREDDY: No, Fred ereck.
IGOR: Why isn't it Frodereck Fronkon steen?
FREDDY: It's not.  It's Fredereck Fronkonsteen.
IGOR: I see.
FREDDY: You must be Igor.
IGOR: No, it's pronounced Aye gor.
FREDDY: But they told me it was Ee gor.
IGOR: Well, they were wrong then, weren't they?

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Wes Kussmaul]

I say let's all just use our public key (properly issued) and be done with 
all the inscrutable etiquette!

><clip> some people
>presenting their names in their 'natural' order and some presenting them
>in our 'natural' order.
>
>So one is sort of left having to use a full name!
>
>DF
>
>[1] Unless of course you recognise one or other of the names as being of a
>     particular type: family vs given

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Derek Fawcus]

On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 09:21:42PM +0100, Axel Belinfante wrote:
> some international groups (communities, circles, whatever)[1] solve
> this ambiguity by customarily using all-caps for the family name.

I remember the imigration form at the Maldives.

"Fill in name,  and underline family name"

DF

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[boyd, rounin]

> Axel BELINFANTE

yup .fr:

    Boyd ROBERTS

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Axel Belinfante]

I wrote:
> some international groups (communities, circles, whatever)[1] solve
> this ambiguity by customarily using all-caps for the family name.

and know I'm wondering myself how to _pronounces_
something all-caps, e.g. when meeting in person...


> Axel BELINFANTE
> 
> [1] I know this at least holds for esperantists
> 
> > I had the impression that Japan was one of those cultures where names are
> > of the form 'family given' vs 'given family'.  Is this correct?
> > 
> > If so,  then it can at times be difficult to know which name is the family
> > name and which is the given one [1].  i.e. in the face of some people
> > presenting their names in their 'natural' order and some presenting them
> > in our 'natural' order.
> > 
> > So one is sort of left having to use a full name!
> > 
> > DF
> > 
> > [1] Unless of course you recognise one or other of the names as being of a
> >     particular type: family vs given

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Axel Belinfante]

some international groups (communities, circles, whatever)[1] solve
this ambiguity by customarily using all-caps for the family name.

Axel BELINFANTE

[1] I know this at least holds for esperantists

> I had the impression that Japan was one of those cultures where names are
> of the form 'family given' vs 'given family'.  Is this correct?
> 
> If so,  then it can at times be difficult to know which name is the family
> name and which is the given one [1].  i.e. in the face of some people
> presenting their names in their 'natural' order and some presenting them
> in our 'natural' order.
> 
> So one is sort of left having to use a full name!
> 
> DF
> 
> [1] Unless of course you recognise one or other of the names as being of a
>     particular type: family vs given

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Derek Fawcus]

On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 03:30:07PM +0900, Kenji Okamoto wrote:
> If neccessary, please use Kenji or Kenji Okamoto, thank you.

I had the impression that Japan was one of those cultures where names are
of the form 'family given' vs 'given family'.  Is this correct?

If so,  then it can at times be difficult to know which name is the family
name and which is the given one [1].  i.e. in the face of some people
presenting their names in their 'natural' order and some presenting them
in our 'natural' order.

So one is sort of left having to use a full name!

DF

[1] Unless of course you recognise one or other of the names as being of a
    particular type: family vs given

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Noah Evans]

:) No biggie, I bought a 3c589 for $3 so I could get the craptop to have network access under Plan 9. 

How different is an audigy from a normal soundblaster 16(like Plan 9 supports)? How hard would it be to do an emu10k1 driver?

Noah

----- Original Message -----
From: "boyd, rounin" <boyd@insultant.net>
Date: Monday, March 8, 2004 11:50 am
Subject: Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

> > Any luck on the 3c574 pcmcia driver? hoshigatteru kara. 
> 
> nope, 'cos if i can't type, i can't hack.  so i don't hack.
> 
> i fixed the kdb stuff once, but ...
> 
> 

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[boyd, rounin]

> Any luck on the 3c574 pcmcia driver? hoshigatteru kara. 

nope, 'cos if i can't type, i can't hack.  so i don't hack.

i fixed the kdb stuff once, but ...

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Noah Evans]

:) Nope. 

Any luck on the 3c574 pcmcia driver? hoshigatteru kara. 

----- Original Message -----
From: "boyd, rounin" <boyd@insultant.net>
Date: Monday, March 8, 2004 11:22 am
Subject: Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

> > Brief description of suffixes(I'm sure you know this boyd, this 
> is for
> other people, not to patronize you):
> 
> you don't know me very well ;)
> 
> > sama = gods, really honored folks (i.e. kami[god]-sama)
> 
> yes, go-chisousama deshita [de gozaimashita] is a good one
> when you leave a restaurant.  freaks 'em out.
> 
> kami is also 'divine' and 'paper' (but different kanji).
> 
> > chan = female diminuitive also works for boyfriends, children 
> and pets.
> 
> forgot about that one.
> 
> 

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Noah Evans]

It works that way too, but it implies a great deal of familiarity. But YMMV and Kenji will certainly give you a better explaination. 

Noah

----- Original Message -----
From: Gorka Guardiola Múzquiz <paurea@lsub.org>
Date: Monday, March 8, 2004 9:09 am
Subject: Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

> > kun = male diminuitive used by superiors to inferiors(e.g. at 
> work I'm "Noah-kun")
> 
> I thought ?? (kun) was also for colleages (for example for a 
> colleage at university)
> Kenji what do you say?.
> 
> ???                        	
> 
>

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[boyd, rounin]

Victim of Dinsdale: "He was a cruel man, but fair."

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[boyd, rounin]

> I was wondering if Okamoto-san would be acceptable?

normally, yes.

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[boyd, rounin]

> Yes, but you can't expect people just to forget their cultural
differences.
> In Japan, addressing someone with their last name, but without a
> "politeness" suffix is considered undignifying/rude/offensive (take your
pick).

depends on the situation.

one kenji got all pissed off when i used -kun.

you could try 'omae' ;)

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[boyd, rounin]

> Seriously, I would think it onerous to expect everyone to live by *my*
> rules of etiquette or culture, given that this is an international
> medium and this forum has participants from all over the globe.

exactly.  adapting to a culture is hard.  living it is harder.

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Geoff Collyer]

mkconv converted makefiles to mkfiles and was distributed with old
versions of Unix mk.  You can find an rc version of it at
/sys/src/cmd/mk/mkconv.

mk -m used to generate a makefile from the current mkfile too.

An advantage of rewriting makefiles into mkfiles is that you can use
inclusion with '<' to drastically shorten the mkfile.  This is the
entire mkfile for the v7 shell:
---
</$objtype/mkfile

TARG=v7sh
OFILES=args.$O builtin.$O cmd.$O ctype.$O error.$O expand.$O fault.$O io.$O \
	macro.$O main.$O msg.$O name.$O print.$O service.$O stak.$O string.$O \
	word.$O xec.$O
HFILES=ctype.h defs.h mac.h mode.h name.h stak.h sym.h timeout.h
BIN=$home/bin/$objtype
CFLAGS = -w -DPLAN9 -D_POSIX_SOURCE -D_BSD_EXTENSION
CC=pcc -c
LD=pcc

</sys/src/cmd/mkone
---

Given that, `mk installall' will build it and install it for all your
supported architectures.

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Keith Nash]

>     This is not LINUX!  This is Plan 9.  There are rules.  -boyd/walter

Victim of Dinsdale: "...and then he nailed my head to the floor.  There was nothing else he could do, to be fair.  He told me I'd broken the unwritten rule."
Interviewer: "What was that?"
Victim of Dinsdale: "He wouldn't tell me."

RE: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[lucio]

> Or, if you like Dr. Okamoto.
> 
That's perfectly fine by me.  I don't think I'm likely to forget the
correct title.  Now if Kenji Arisawa were to state his preference, I
for one would be happy to put the issue to sleep.

++L

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[9nut]

> Awawawa,

What does this mean?
Thanks.

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[9nut]

>>> i followed your instructions to Okamoto almost exactly (had to fix for
>>> the botched URL you gave him).
>> 
>> Andrey, as I said before, I don't want to be called just Okamoto.
>> Here in Japan, it means you are downlooking me.  If neccessary,
>> please use Kenji or Kenji Okamoto, thank you.
>> 
>> Kenji
> 
> Looks like two strikes:
> 
> 	https://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2003-June/024901.html
> 
> One more and i'm out.
> 
> I'm sincerely sorry I'm not well acquainted with Japanese culture.
> I'd like to remedy that in the future.  For now, please cope with me.
> 
> andrey

Andrey, you can call me anything you want so long as you don't call me late
for dinner ☺

Seriously, I would think it onerous to expect everyone to live by *my*
rules of etiquette or culture, given that this is an international
medium and this forum has participants from all over the globe.

RE: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Kenji Okamoto]

>> I was wondering if Okamoto-san would be acceptable?
> 
> I love Kenji, here.

Or, if you like Dr. Okamoto.☺☺

Kenji

RE: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Kenji Okamoto]

> I was wondering if Okamoto-san would be acceptable?

I love Kenji, here.

Kenji

RE: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Tiit Lankots]

> >> Awawawa,

(a) oh dear?
(b) whoopsy-daisies?

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Kenji Okamoto]

> Also, what's its kanji? ☺

(utf-8) "あわわわ", there is no kanji for it.
It comes deep from Japanese, can write only by Kana.

Kenji

RE: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Tiit Lankots]

> I was wondering if Okamoto-san would be acceptable?

My guess would be that it covers from K. Okamoto to mr. Okamoto.
The problem with Japanese is that it does not quite map to
English. To me, as I'm talking a language considerably different from English,
too, it's sometimes easier :)

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Kenji Okamoto]

>> Awawawa,

got into panic by facing unexpected response.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Charles Forsyth]

there is an ancient Unix sh program somewhere that helps convert makefiles
to mkfiles.  unfortunately, i've lost it, but it might turn up.  i'm not sure it would be much
help anyhow with `modern' gmake/nmake/imake/whymake mkfiles.
someone else might have it though, which is why i mention it.

RE: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[lucio]

> Yes, but you can't expect people just to forget their cultural differences.
> In Japan, addressing someone with their last name, but without a
> "politeness" suffix is considered undignifying/rude/offensive (take your pick).
> 
I was wondering if Okamoto-san would be acceptable?

++L

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Charles Forsyth]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 245 bytes --]

>> perhaps, but this way we get all the architectures

i was referring to your (useful) use of ape/pcc not gcc;
had you used gcc it wouldn't have given a port to other
plan 9 architectures.  in other words, i think you did the right thing!

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2244 bytes --]

From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:37:12 +0400 (AMT)
Message-ID: <200403080837.i288bCDa084442@adat.davidashen.net>

> perhaps, but this way we get all the architectures

I will do the 'normal' port, that is, with mk (but still pcc).
I just wanted to realize what's needed. I didn't find an make->mk
automation tool, and am going to write it. Is it against the
religion too?

RE: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Tiit Lankots]

> > Seriously, I would think it onerous to expect everyone to 
> live by *my*
> > rules of etiquette or culture, given that this is an international
> > medium and this forum has participants from all over the globe.

Yes, but you can't expect people just to forget their cultural differences.
In Japan, addressing someone with their last name, but without a
"politeness" suffix is considered undignifying/rude/offensive (take your pick).

So a Japanese reader will, while perfrectly understanding that this wasn't
the westerner's intent, still feel disturbed. This kind of problem can be avoided.

Tiit

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[David Tolpin]

> perhaps, but this way we get all the architectures

I will do the 'normal' port, that is, with mk (but still pcc).
I just wanted to realize what's needed. I didn't find an make->mk
automation tool, and am going to write it. Is it against the
religion too?

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Charles Forsyth]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 349 bytes --]

it's usually not too hard and once set up it's usually
fairly easy to maintain.  it has the advantage that all
architectures can be generated at once (ie, not just 386).

that's far from saying that you must be the one to do it;
i don't see why you should if it's not important to you.
if it's that useful someone else will do it eventually.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2392 bytes --]

From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 09:48:40 +0400 (AMT)
Message-ID: <200403080548.i285meSD083604@adat.davidashen.net>

>      This is not LINUX!  This is Plan 9.  There are rules.  -boyd/walter

Now, when the code is working, either  the poster of the remark,
or any other volunteer, is welcome to re-arrange and rewrite the
make process. 

What would be the non-religious part of benefit of doing that?
Would it help to merge with new versions of graphviz (the current
is 1.12, post on March 1st)

David

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Charles Forsyth]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 52 bytes --]

perhaps, but this way we get all the architectures

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1895 bytes --]

From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 21:51:22 -0700
Message-ID: <d0e27d8c6e585688353d0ebd23c96d91@plan9.ucalgary.ca>

> ape/psh
> 9configure
> 9make

for non-gui stuff you can also download the gcc 3.0 port and use
gnu/gsh.  graphviz used to compile relatively fine with it a year ago and
configure scripts kind of work with it.  would've saved you some time.

andrey

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[lucio]

> Seriously, I would think it onerous to expect everyone to live by *my*
> rules of etiquette or culture, given that this is an international
> medium and this forum has participants from all over the globe.

I share the feeling, at the same time I believe that explicitly
expressed requests should be accepted or equally explicitly rejected.

The specific instance where there are two Kenjis but the surname (?)
may not be used alone to differentiate them, is just one of those
coincidences one would gladly do without :-)

++L

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Fco.J.Ballesteros]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 29 bytes --]

Also, what's its kanji? ☺

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1663 bytes --]

From: 9nut@9netics.com
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 01:22:25 -0800
Message-ID: <235a6d52779a7bee6b29ac3ef70b75dd@9netics.com>

> Awawawa,

What does this mean?
Thanks.

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Kenji Okamoto]

Awawawa,

I didn't expect such a comment, Andrey.
I just wanted to let you and others know, please don't call me
just Okamoto, if you are not intending to lookdown myself.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Kenji Okamoto]

> i followed your instructions to Okamoto almost exactly (had to fix for
> the botched URL you gave him).

Andrey, as I said before, I don't want to be called just Okamoto.
Here in Japan, it means you are downlooking me.  If neccessary,
please use Kenji or Kenji Okamoto, thank you.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[David Tolpin]

>
> The problem is that you assumed your configure will work
> on Plan 9 environment with/without ape, but it was not written
> for it, which means it doesn't work.   Do you really have working
> version for Plan 9?

Yes, I do. I never assumed that it would work without ape.
You have to launch ape/psh before invoking the scripts.

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Kenji Okamoto]

I have no offense to you, however,....

> 1) I wanted to know how well ape works.
> 2) I didn't want dependencies between ports.
> 3) That would definitely make transition to native tools
> more remote.

Probably, you'd know there may be many more powerful
persons around the world, and also here...   This may be
the point what I've been feeling why you speaks so much.

The problem is that you assumed your configure will work
on Plan 9 environment with/without ape, but it was not written
for it, which means it doesn't work.   Do you really have working
version for Plan 9?

Kenji

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[David Tolpin]

> Should you rewrite scan.l in lex, too? Yes. 
>
> Or at least remove cleaning it from the makefile so
> you don't screw your users.

OK. Added to TODO list.

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[David Tolpin]

> > What would be the non-religious part of benefit of doing that?
> > Would it help to merge with new versions of graphviz (the current
> > is 1.12, post on March 1st)
>
> firstly you replace:

Not how, what for?

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[David Tolpin]

> btw, should we send you bug reports on this list?

You can send them to me directly.

> i have this problem compiling it:
>
> 	# 9make
> 	No suffix or % pattern list.
> 	make  all-recursive
> 	No suffix or % pattern list.
> 	Making all in cdt
> 	Making all in agraph
> 	105: lex /tmp/graphviz-1.10/agraph/scan.l

What for did you run 'make distclean'?  scan.l is written
in flex. AT&T includes scan.c into the distribution on purpose.

Unless scan.l is rewritten in lex, scan.c is needed.

Or, flex should be properly ported to Plan9.

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[David Tolpin]

> > ape/psh
> > 9configure
> > 9make
>
> for non-gui stuff you can also download the gcc 3.0 port and use
> gnu/gsh.  graphviz used to compile relatively fine with it a year ago and
> configure scripts kind of work with it.  would've saved you some time.

1) I wanted to know how well ape works.
2) I didn't want dependencies between ports.
3) That would definitely make transition to native tools
more remote.

David

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[David Tolpin]

> > Now, when the code is working, either  the poster of the remark,
> > or any other volunteer, is welcome to re-arrange and rewrite the
> > make process. 
>
> the code isn't working.

Only because you run 'make clean'.  graphviz distribution includes
scan.c generated from scan.l (from research.att.com, not my port),
because scan.l requires flex, not lex. Should I rewrite scan.l
in lex too?

> secondly you replace:

In what respect will it make the program better?

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[dbailey27]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 130 bytes --]

Should you rewrite scan.l in lex, too? Yes. 

Or at least remove cleaning it from the makefile so
you don't screw your users.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2914 bytes --]

From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:12:48 +0400 (AMT)
Message-ID: <200403080612.i286CmXb083675@adat.davidashen.net>

> > Now, when the code is working, either  the poster of the remark,
> > or any other volunteer, is welcome to re-arrange and rewrite the
> > make process. 
>
> the code isn't working.

Only because you run 'make clean'.  graphviz distribution includes
scan.c generated from scan.l (from research.att.com, not my port),
because scan.l requires flex, not lex. Should I rewrite scan.l
in lex too?

> secondly you replace:

In what respect will it make the program better?

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[dbailey27]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 38 bytes --]

then you replace
	pcc

with:
	8c

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3168 bytes --]

From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 22:08:37 -0700
Message-ID: <7a682bfdaa722f04b826e3b3851a7a28@plan9.ucalgary.ca>

>>      This is not LINUX!  This is Plan 9.  There are rules.  -boyd/walter
> 
> Now, when the code is working, either  the poster of the remark,
> or any other volunteer, is welcome to re-arrange and rewrite the
> make process. 

the code isn't working.

> 
> What would be the non-religious part of benefit of doing that?
> Would it help to merge with new versions of graphviz (the current
> is 1.12, post on March 1st)

firstly you replace:

	ape/psh
	9configure
	9make

with:

	plan9% mk

secondly you replace:
	
	source='refstr.c' object='refstr.lo' libtool=yes  depfile='.deps/refstr.Plo' 
          tmpdepfile='.deps/refstr.TPlo'  depmode=none /bin/sh /tmp/graphviz-1.10/depcomp  /bin/sh 
          ../libtool --mode=compile cc -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I/tmp/graphviz-1.10/agraph -I..  
          -I/tmp/graphviz-1.10/cdt  -I/usr/local/include  -D_BSD_EXTENSION=1 -A -c -o refstr.lo `test 
          -f refstr.c || echo '/tmp/graphviz-1.10/agraph/'`refstr.c

with:

	pcc -I. -Ijpeg -Ipng -Izlib -B -p -c -DPLAN9 -DHAVE_CONFIG_H af_unix.c

andrey

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[David Tolpin]

>      This is not LINUX!  This is Plan 9.  There are rules.  -boyd/walter

Now, when the code is working, either  the poster of the remark,
or any other volunteer, is welcome to re-arrange and rewrite the
make process. 

What would be the non-religious part of benefit of doing that?
Would it help to merge with new versions of graphviz (the current
is 1.12, post on March 1st)

David

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[andrey mirtchovski]

>> i followed your instructions to Okamoto almost exactly (had to fix for
>> the botched URL you gave him).
> 
> Andrey, as I said before, I don't want to be called just Okamoto.
> Here in Japan, it means you are downlooking me.  If neccessary,
> please use Kenji or Kenji Okamoto, thank you.
> 
> Kenji

Looks like two strikes:

	https://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/2003-June/024901.html

One more and i'm out.

I'm sincerely sorry I'm not well acquainted with Japanese culture.
I'd like to remedy that in the future.  For now, please cope with me.

andrey

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[andrey mirtchovski]

> Should you rewrite scan.l in lex, too? Yes. 
> 
> Or at least remove cleaning it from the makefile so
> you don't screw your users.

<bart>but, but but but but!</bart>

configure is there exactly for that purpose, right?  to catch if the
damn thing is there or not!  otherwise why go through the pain of
running it at all?

have you noticed how the configure script takes longer to
complete than the compilation phase?  :)

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[David Tolpin]

> by the way, configure doesn't work for me.

configure is a bourne shell script.

> complains wrong executable suffix...

It needs psh.

hget://www.graphviz.org/pub/graphviz/ARCHIVE/graphviz-1.10.tar.gz|gunzip|tar x
cd graphviz-1.10
hget http://ftp.davidashen.net/misc/graphviz-9patch.tbz|bunzip2|tar xT
ape/psh
9configure
9make

to build the binaries,

dotneato/dot -Tps graphs/directed/crazy.dot -o crazy.ps
page crazy.ps

To view the result.

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[boyd, rounin]

> Of couse, s/wright/right/ you know, as usual.☺

wakatta

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[andrey mirtchovski]

> What for did you run 'make distclean'?  scan.l is written
> in flex. AT&T includes scan.c into the distribution on purpose.

i followed your instructions to Okamoto almost exactly (had to fix for
the botched URL you gave him).

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Kenji Okamoto]

> Of course, those two lines are wright!

Of couse, s/wright/right/ you know, as usual.☺

Kenji

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Kenji Okamoto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 93 bytes --]

Of course, those two lines are wright!
However, still remains a phrase "however".

Kenji

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2235 bytes --]

From: "boyd, rounin" <boyd@insultant.net>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 06:09:37 +0100
Message-ID: <049c01c404cb$8e9e2ea0$67844051@SOMA>

code it in ken C.

as for money:  we all need to pay the rent.

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[boyd, rounin]

code it in ken C.

as for money:  we all need to pay the rent.

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[andrey mirtchovski]

>>      This is not LINUX!  This is Plan 9.  There are rules.  -boyd/walter
> 
> Now, when the code is working, either  the poster of the remark,
> or any other volunteer, is welcome to re-arrange and rewrite the
> make process. 

the code isn't working.

> 
> What would be the non-religious part of benefit of doing that?
> Would it help to merge with new versions of graphviz (the current
> is 1.12, post on March 1st)

firstly you replace:

	ape/psh
	9configure
	9make

with:

	plan9% mk

secondly you replace:
	
	source='refstr.c' object='refstr.lo' libtool=yes  depfile='.deps/refstr.Plo' 
          tmpdepfile='.deps/refstr.TPlo'  depmode=none /bin/sh /tmp/graphviz-1.10/depcomp  /bin/sh 
          ../libtool --mode=compile cc -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I/tmp/graphviz-1.10/agraph -I..  
          -I/tmp/graphviz-1.10/cdt  -I/usr/local/include  -D_BSD_EXTENSION=1 -A -c -o refstr.lo `test 
          -f refstr.c || echo '/tmp/graphviz-1.10/agraph/'`refstr.c

with:

	pcc -I. -Ijpeg -Ipng -Izlib -B -p -c -DPLAN9 -DHAVE_CONFIG_H af_unix.c

andrey

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[George Michaelson]

I'm yet to feel (a) either insulted, or (b) that the insult was not justified
when people tell me to piss off.

speaking as a non-plan9 contributer...

-George

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Kenji Okamoto]

>      This is not LINUX!  This is Plan 9.  There are rules.  -boyd/walter

I know what you want to say, I believe.
However, it has passed more than several years, and we got very few
native programms for Plan 9.    Furthermore, you demand cash based
on a older business model of open-source movements.  If we could
get money, it's better of course.   Anyway, I think your post includes
very important and deep thought point against the today's movement.
However, I'll repeat again, you are targetting wrong!

Kenji

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[boyd, rounin]

> Don't insult a person who has contributed to Plan 9 community, boyd.

i got the 1st ammendment & la liberté d'expression on my side, so ...

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[andrey mirtchovski]

btw, should we send you bug reports on this list?

i have this problem compiling it:

	# 9make
	No suffix or % pattern list.
	make  all-recursive
	No suffix or % pattern list.
	Making all in cdt
	Making all in agraph
	105: lex /tmp/graphviz-1.10/agraph/scan.l
	(Warning) Invalid request %x comment
	106: (Warning) Invalid request %x qstring
	108: (Warning) Undefined start condition comment
	108: (Warning) Undefined start condition qstring
	110: (Warning) Undefined start condition comment
	123: (Warning) Non-portable Character Class
	123: (Warning) Non-portable Character Class
	124: (Warning) Non-portable Character Class
	126: (Warning) Undefined start condition qstring
	127: (Warning) Undefined start condition qstring
	128: (Warning) Undefined start condition qstring
	(Error) Too many transitions 
	Try using %a num
	*** Error code 1
	
	Stop.
	*** Error code 1
	
	Stop.
	*** Error code 1
	
	Stop.
	# 

andrey


>> by the way, configure doesn't work for me.
> 
> configure is a bourne shell script.
> 
>> complains wrong executable suffix...
> 
> It needs psh.
> 
> hget://www.graphviz.org/pub/graphviz/ARCHIVE/graphviz-1.10.tar.gz|gunzip|tar x
> cd graphviz-1.10
> hget http://ftp.davidashen.net/misc/graphviz-9patch.tbz|bunzip2|tar xT
> ape/psh
> 9configure
> 9make
> 
> to build the binaries,
> 
> dotneato/dot -Tps graphs/directed/crazy.dot -o crazy.ps
> page crazy.ps
> 
> To view the result.

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[boyd, rounin]

> Don't insult a person who has contributed to Plan 9 community, boyd.

contributed?  cat /dev/noise

no,

     This is not LINUX!  This is Plan 9.  There are rules.  -boyd/walter

"the nail that sticks up will be hammered down" -- not in this lifetime,
homes.

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[andrey mirtchovski]

> ape/psh
> 9configure
> 9make

for non-gui stuff you can also download the gcc 3.0 port and use
gnu/gsh.  graphviz used to compile relatively fine with it a year ago and
configure scripts kind of work with it.  would've saved you some time.

andrey

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[Kenji Okamoto]

> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Tolpin" <dvd@davidashen.net>
>> To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
>> Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 11:23 PM
>> Subject: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port
> 
> yup, 100% agreement.

Don't insult a person who has contributed to Plan 9 community, boyd.

Yes, it's better to write native programs for Plan 9.
It, however, usually use up his/her full-time work, because it's harder
to learn new ideas than to use such well known ones.

Your gun should target other kind of persons...

by the way, configure doesn't work for me.
complains wrong executable suffix...

Kenji

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[David Tolpin]

> check the links on additional software.

Thank you for the link; one correction, if possible.  I am not David
Ashen, I am David Tolpin. Davida-shen (accent on the last syllable)
means in Armenian 'built by David', that's why the domain name. And
no, i'm not Armenian, just happen to live here.

David Tolpin

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[David Presotto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 39 bytes --]

check the links on additional software.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2835 bytes --]

From: David Tolpin <dvd@davidashen.net>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Cc: dvd@adat.davidashen.net
Subject: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:30:01 +0400 (AMT)
Message-ID: <200403052230.i25MU198066662@adat.davidashen.net>

I'm sorry for the empty message, have done something wrong.

Hi,

I've made an ape port of graphviz. dot and neato are working (the generated
Postscript and SVG is the same as on other platforms, just better). I am
not sure it won't be affected by setup discrepancies, but have done my best
to make building easy.

Execute

hget://www.graphviz.org/pub/graphviz/ARCHIVE/graphviz-1.10.tar.gz|gunzip|tar x
cd graphviz-1.10
hget http://ftp.davidashen.net/misc/graphviz-9patch.tbz|bunzip2|tar xT
ape/psh
9configure
9make

to build the binaries,

dotneato/dot -Tps graphs/directed/crazy.dot -o crazy.ps
page crazy.ps

To view the result.

graphviz-plan9-diff.ed

contains differences between original grapviz-1.10 and the ported
version. I tried to touch as little as possible. 


David Tolpin
http://davidashen.net/

Re: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[boyd, rounin]

----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Tolpin" <dvd@davidashen.net>
> To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 11:23 PM
> Subject: [9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

yup, 100% agreement.

[9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[David Tolpin]

I'm sorry for the empty message, have done something wrong.

Hi,

I've made an ape port of graphviz. dot and neato are working (the generated
Postscript and SVG is the same as on other platforms, just better). I am
not sure it won't be affected by setup discrepancies, but have done my best
to make building easy.

Execute

hget://www.graphviz.org/pub/graphviz/ARCHIVE/graphviz-1.10.tar.gz|gunzip|tar x
cd graphviz-1.10
hget http://ftp.davidashen.net/misc/graphviz-9patch.tbz|bunzip2|tar xT
ape/psh
9configure
9make

to build the binaries,

dotneato/dot -Tps graphs/directed/crazy.dot -o crazy.ps
page crazy.ps

To view the result.

graphviz-plan9-diff.ed

contains differences between original grapviz-1.10 and the ported
version. I tried to touch as little as possible. 


David Tolpin
http://davidashen.net/

[9fans] graphviz-1.10 port

[David Tolpin]