[9fans] Nemo book

[9fans] Nemo book

[s s]

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Is there an html version of the nemo book?

http://lsub.org/who/nemo/9.pdf

Want to read it as white text on a black background.

 - Leonard

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Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

IIRC there's a 9.txt.gz, not html, but raw text.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:43 PM, s s <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there an html version of the nemo book?
>
> http://lsub.org/who/nemo/9.pdf
>
> Want to read it as white text on a black background.
>
>  - Leonard
>
>

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

Yes, http://lsub.org/who/nemo/9.txt.gz


On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Francisco J Ballesteros <nemo@lsub.org> wrote:
> IIRC there's a 9.txt.gz, not html, but raw text.
>
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:43 PM, s s <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Is there an html version of the nemo book?
>>
>> http://lsub.org/who/nemo/9.pdf
>>
>> Want to read it as white text on a black background.
>>
>>  - Leonard
>>
>>
>

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[s s]

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On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Francisco J Ballesteros <nemo@lsub.org>wrote:

> Yes, http://lsub.org/who/nemo/9.txt.gz
>
>
Cheers.

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Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[s s]

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On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Francisco J Ballesteros <nemo@lsub.org>wrote:

> Yes, http://lsub.org/who/nemo/9.txt.gz
>
>
Wow is that better.

Too bad there is no css for pdf.  (Or is there?)

Viewing the book now with Firefox/Stylish/Blackify.

http://userstyles.org/styles/2154/blackify

 - Leonard

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Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[hiro]

Or use xpdf -rv
Although I use it for exactly the opposite purpose.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 23:43, s s <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there an html version of the nemo book?
>
> http://lsub.org/who/nemo/9.pdf
>
> Want to read it as white text on a black background.
>
>  - Leonard
>
>

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[s s]

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On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:50 PM, hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Or use xpdf -rv
> Although I use it for exactly the opposite purpose.
>

How come no one likes high-contrast-inverse themes?

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Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[John Floren]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 2:55 PM, s s <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:50 PM, hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Or use xpdf -rv
>> Although I use it for exactly the opposite purpose.
>
> How come no one likes high-contrast-inverse themes?
>
>

Because we like our eyeballs. I think you're going to be pretty
disappointed with the Plan 9 UIs, if you get around to booting it.



John

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[L N]

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On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:57 PM, John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 2:55 PM, s s <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:50 PM, hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Or use xpdf -rv
> >> Although I use it for exactly the opposite purpose.
> >
> > How come no one likes high-contrast-inverse themes?
> >
> >
>
> Because we like our eyeballs. I think you're going to be pretty
> disappointed with the Plan 9 UIs, if you get around to booting it.
>
>
>
> John
>

Right now running Ubuntu, with openbox.

GTK theme is Wii-black.

Tried using wmii, but for some reason sound stopped working, so still using
openbox.

Downloaded p9p and go9p.

Afraid to commit to booting native Plan-9 until I'm sure I can get openbox,
firefox, and chromium-browser working on it.

 - Leonard

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Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[ron minnich]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 3:13 PM, L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote:

> Afraid to commit to booting native Plan-9 until I'm sure I can get openbox,
> firefox, and chromium-browser working on it.

ah, now I see :-)
http://www.clipartguide.com/_named_clipart_images/0511-0701-3117-1335_Skeleton_Behind_a_Business_Desk_clipart_image.jpg

ron

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[L N]

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> ah, now I see :-)
>
> http://www.clipartguide.com/_named_clipart_images/0511-0701-3117-1335_Skeleton_Behind_a_Business_Desk_clipart_image.jpg
>
> ron
>

Maybe.

The web-browser really is a deal-breaker, though.

I really enjoyed reading about Plan 9, first at plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/,
and later at cat-v.org.

As much as I like the design of Plan 9, I also like surfing the web.

It would be nice to boot Plan 9 natively on AMD-64, type startx, and open a
browser.

Unfortunately, I'm not at a level where I can really contribute to getting
Plan 9 to that point.

I think the focus of the Plan 9 community should be just that.

The goal should be a Plan 9 "distro" that runs natively on AMD-64, and can
open a web-browser.

With the announcement of NIX, maybe we are already at that point?

http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/good_bad_ugly/slides/28

 - Leonard

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Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[John Floren]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 3:41 PM, L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ah, now I see :-)
>>
>> http://www.clipartguide.com/_named_clipart_images/0511-0701-3117-1335_Skeleton_Behind_a_Business_Desk_clipart_image.jpg
>>
>> ron
>
> Maybe.
>
> The web-browser really is a deal-breaker, though.
>
> I really enjoyed reading about Plan 9, first at
> plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/, and later at cat-v.org.
>
> As much as I like the design of Plan 9, I also like surfing the web.
>
> It would be nice to boot Plan 9 natively on AMD-64, type startx, and open a
> browser.
>
> Unfortunately, I'm not at a level where I can really contribute to getting
> Plan 9 to that point.
>
> I think the focus of the Plan 9 community should be just that.
>
> The goal should be a Plan 9 "distro" that runs natively on AMD-64, and can
> open a web-browser.
>
> With the announcement of NIX, maybe we are already at that point?
>
> http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/good_bad_ugly/slides/28
>
>  - Leonard

 I think you have seriously misapprehended many things about Plan 9.
We don't have X. We are not Linux compatible, although there's a
rather decent Linux emulator. There is no GTK, no Qt, no Firefox, no
modern C++ compiler.

I think it's time for people to stop telling the "Plan 9 community"
what its goals should be, when these people haven't even booted Plan
9.

John

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

The point is that you can run multiple operating systems,
these days, even on the same machine at the same time.
There's no need to use the same one for everything.

On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 12:54 AM, John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 3:41 PM, L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> ah, now I see :-)
>>>
>>> http://www.clipartguide.com/_named_clipart_images/0511-0701-3117-1335_Skeleton_Behind_a_Business_Desk_clipart_image.jpg
>>>
>>> ron
>>
>> Maybe.
>>
>> The web-browser really is a deal-breaker, though.
>>
>> I really enjoyed reading about Plan 9, first at
>> plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/, and later at cat-v.org.
>>
>> As much as I like the design of Plan 9, I also like surfing the web.
>>
>> It would be nice to boot Plan 9 natively on AMD-64, type startx, and open a
>> browser.
>>
>> Unfortunately, I'm not at a level where I can really contribute to getting
>> Plan 9 to that point.
>>
>> I think the focus of the Plan 9 community should be just that.
>>
>> The goal should be a Plan 9 "distro" that runs natively on AMD-64, and can
>> open a web-browser.
>>
>> With the announcement of NIX, maybe we are already at that point?
>>
>> http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/good_bad_ugly/slides/28
>>
>>  - Leonard
>
>  I think you have seriously misapprehended many things about Plan 9.
> We don't have X. We are not Linux compatible, although there's a
> rather decent Linux emulator. There is no GTK, no Qt, no Firefox, no
> modern C++ compiler.
>
> I think it's time for people to stop telling the "Plan 9 community"
> what its goals should be, when these people haven't even booted Plan
> 9.
>
> John
>
>

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[L N]

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>  I think you have seriously misapprehended many things about Plan 9.
>

What am I misapprehending?


> We don't have X. We are not Linux compatible, although there's a
> rather decent Linux emulator. There is no GTK, no Qt, no Firefox, no
> modern C++ compiler.
>

I don't need X, Linux compatibility, GTK, Qt, Firefox, or C++.

I need an OS that runs a browser.

I was using "startx" in the figurative sense.


>
> I think it's time for people to stop telling the "Plan 9 community"
> what its goals should be,


Are my-two-cents worth a negative amount?


> when these people haven't even booted Plan
> 9.
>

Why should I boot Plan 9, when I know I can't run a browser, and I already
have p9p?

John
>

 - Leonard

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Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[hiro]

Plan 9 is an OS, p9p is less.
If all you need from Plan 9 is in p9p no need to boot Plan 9.
We have a browser, but not one with all the newest craze (no html5,
js, flash, gl).

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[ron minnich]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 4:30 PM, hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Plan 9 is an OS, p9p is less.
> If all you need from Plan 9 is in p9p no need to boot Plan 9.
> We have a browser, but not one with all the newest craze (no html5,
> js, flash, gl).
>
>

Although for my money abaco is still really neat ...

ron

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[Akshat Kumar]

abaco is free.

:-)

> Although for my money abaco is still really neat ...
>
> ron

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[hiro]

invest some time then.

On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 01:43, Akshat Kumar <akumar@mail.nanosouffle.net> wrote:
> abaco is free.
>
> :-)
>
>> Although for my money abaco is still really neat ...
>>
>> ron
>
>

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[L N]

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On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 7:33 PM, ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> Although for my money abaco is still really neat ...
>
> ron
>
>
I wonder if I can get abaco to display pages with a high-contrast-inverse
theme.  :]

 - Leonard

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Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[ron minnich]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 4:19 PM, L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote:

> Why should I boot Plan 9, when I know I can't run a browser, and I already
> have p9p?

um, precisely. You should not. So use p9p. Let's get back to trying to
figure out where the Ted Stevens quote is in the NIX source.

thanks

ron

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[Nick LaForge]

Since you're on Ubuntu, why don't you start learning the ropes of the
Plan 9 programming environment by compiling/running 9vx on Ubuntu and
then hitting the papers?  That way you can easily continue to use
Mozilla and invest minimal time before being able to actually get
something out of Plan 9 (you'll need to write some file servers as
well as thoroughly appreciate the concurrency model).

You'll find 9vx is also a great utility for more effectively using Linux.

Inside 9vx, you should also see 'man 1 abaco' and decide if you really
need Mozilla.

Nick

On 9/14/11, L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>  I think you have seriously misapprehended many things about Plan 9.
>>
>
> What am I misapprehending?
>
>
>> We don't have X. We are not Linux compatible, although there's a
>> rather decent Linux emulator. There is no GTK, no Qt, no Firefox, no
>> modern C++ compiler.
>>
>
> I don't need X, Linux compatibility, GTK, Qt, Firefox, or C++.
>
> I need an OS that runs a browser.
>
> I was using "startx" in the figurative sense.
>
>
>>
>> I think it's time for people to stop telling the "Plan 9 community"
>> what its goals should be,
>
>
> Are my-two-cents worth a negative amount?
>
>
>> when these people haven't even booted Plan
>> 9.
>>
>
> Why should I boot Plan 9, when I know I can't run a browser, and I already
> have p9p?
>
> John
>>
>
>  - Leonard
>

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[dexen deVries]

On Thursday 15 of September 2011 00:54:11 John Floren wrote:
> (...)
>  I think you have seriously misapprehended many things about Plan 9.
> We don't have X. We are not Linux compatible, although there's a
> rather decent Linux emulator. There is no GTK, no Qt, no Firefox, no
> modern C++ compiler.
> 
> I think it's time for people to stop telling the "Plan 9 community"
> what its goals should be, when these people haven't even booted Plan
> 9.

I'm one of the `never even booted Plan 9' folks, and I agree with John 100%.

Let Plan 9 do things the Plan 9 way, for better or worse. And let the real 
needs influence what gets implemented first and what later on. If there's 
pressing need for /native/ full-blown browser, some of the likes of Abaco will 
be improved to that point.

If Plan 9 tries hard to emulate Linux first and innovate second, it'll become 
stagnant and irrelevant.

-- 
dexen deVries

[[[↓][→]]]

For example, if the first thing in the file is:
   <?kzy irefvba="1.0" rapbqvat="ebg13"?>
an XML parser will recognize that the document is stored in the traditional 
ROT13 encoding.

(( Joe English, http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/faq-not.txt ))

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:41:29 -0400
L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote:

> The goal should be a Plan 9 "distro" that runs natively on AMD-64, and can
> open a web-browser.

That "goal" is a target moving at approximately the speed of light. Specifically, the "open a web browser" part of it is.

A virtualizer running on Plan 9 would waste far less time than implementing enough Linux syscalls to run a Linux distro new enough to run any browser newer than Opera 9.

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[ron minnich]

On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Ethan Grammatikidis
<eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:41:29 -0400
> L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The goal should be a Plan 9 "distro" that runs natively on AMD-64, and can
>> open a web-browser.
>
> That "goal" is a target moving at approximately the speed of light. Specifically, the "open a web browser" part of it is.
>
> A virtualizer running on Plan 9 would waste far less time than implementing enough Linux syscalls to run a Linux distro new enough to run any browser newer than Opera 9.

That's a very interesting point. Implementing lguest on Plan 9 would
require something like 13 "system calls". Far easier than doing the
near-400 system calls of linux correctly.

ron

[9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2011, ron minnich wrote:

> <eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> A virtualizer running on Plan 9 would waste far less time than implementing enough Linux syscalls to run a Linux distro new enough to run any browser newer than Opera 9.

> That's a very interesting point. Implementing lguest on Plan 9 would
> require something like 13 "system calls". Far easier than doing the
> near-400 system calls of linux correctly.

But all of these 'solutions' mean running a foreign binary under some sort
of emulation.  None of these integrate with the native environment.  I.e.
I can't plumb a URL to Firefox running under the linuxulator.  (Can I? If
there's a way I can't find it.)  And that being the case, how are these
emulated browsers any different from cranking up vncv to an external host
and running the browser there?  (I fully expect Eric to leap in here and
point out he has nothing other than Plan9 running :-)  Anyone else?)

While it's mildly annoying, I still manage quite well with vncv and
Firefox running on a UNIX host.  Said host has u9fs and mounts under /n on
the Plan9 hosts, so it's not that difficult to save things and copy them
into a permanent home on the file server.  And it's trivial to code up an
rc script that uses ssh to pass URLs to a remote browser instance.

Wouldn't we be better off rewriting the Plan 9 kernel in Javascript?

--lyndon

Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P

[ron minnich]

But doing the lguest bit might be fun for someone.

ron

Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> But doing the lguest bit might be fun for someone.

No doubt, but please don't sully the idea of doing something for the sheer
pleasure of learning with the idea that life without the web isn't worth
living. (Wait, that just might have solved the problem ...)

On a slightly related note, I did spend a bit of time poking around the
W3C source code archives.  If someone consumed enough mescaline there's a
chance the core libraries could be ported, leading to a lynx-like native
client.  And a graphics-free browser is still a (mostly) viable option
these days.  I'm living on the boat right now, behind an insanely
expensive 3G data stick, so I run Firefox with graphics turned off. I've
only had to enable graphics for one site that simply won't function
without its GIF buttons. I don't think there's any hope of getting away
without Javascript anymore, though :-P

--lyndon

Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P

[erik quanstrom]

> and running the browser there?  (I fully expect Eric to leap in here and
> point out he has nothing other than Plan9 running :-)  Anyone else?)

i'm running a few embedded oses, too, and as of 5 minutes ago, nix.

- erik

Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P

[Bruce Ellis]

If you can't run your holy grail (back off about badgers) - a web
browser - and plan9 on the same cheap ass machine (or two if you
insist on a native bunny) then I believe you can apply to the United
Nations for Whining Remedial Sillyman Assistance - and get off my
grass.

brucee

On 16 September 2011 11:21, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
>> and running the browser there?  (I fully expect Eric to leap in here and
>> point out he has nothing other than Plan9 running :-)  Anyone else?)
>
> i'm running a few embedded oses, too, and as of 5 minutes ago, nix.
>
> - erik
>
>



-- 
Don't meddle in the mouth -- MVS (0416935147, +1-513-3BRUCEE)

[9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> If you can't run your holy grail (back off about badgers) - a web
> browser

What do you mean?  The badgers are better conversationalists.

Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P

[Bruce Ellis]

Than you? I agree.

On 16 September 2011 12:46, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote:
>> If you can't run your holy grail (back off about badgers) - a web
>> browser
>
> What do you mean?  The badgers are better conversationalists.
>
>



-- 
Don't meddle in the mouth -- MVS (0416935147, +1-513-3BRUCEE)

Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 12:13:50 +1000
Bruce Ellis <bruce.ellis@gmail.com> wrote:

> If you can't run your holy grail (back off about badgers) - a web
> browser - and plan9 on the same cheap ass machine

Speaking of cheap-ass machines, 9vx is stable enough for me on my Atom
netbook. Gv aside, it's given me less trouble than the Linux kernel
underneath. I'm currently using Ron's 9vx tree.

Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P

[Anthony Sorace]

On Sep 15, 2011, at 17:31, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote:

> None of these integrate with the native environment.  I.e. I can't plumb a URL to Firefox running under the 

Not out of the box, no. But the plumber's remarkably flexible, and especially if someone had p9p running inside your virtual environment, I'd be shocked if that sort of cross-VM plumbing (pardon the terminology overloading) couldn't be done in an hour. I've done it between OS X and Plan 9 via drawterm in about 20 minutes, and while I do think that's a bit of an easier target, not by more than an order of magnitude.

Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P

[Aram Hăvărneanu]

> None of these integrate with the native environment.  I.e. I
> can't plumb a URL to Firefox running under the linuxulator.

I think adding a few interoperability devices in Linux's /dev would be
about an hour of work. And I don't believe in full linux environments
in lguest, in general, a kernel plus a single static binary, like a
browser would be enough. And it could use 9p directly, no need for a
local virtual disk.

-- 
Aram Hăvărneanu

Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:11:00 +0300
Aram Hăvărneanu <aram.h@mgk.ro> wrote:

> And I don't believe in full linux environments
> in lguest, in general, a kernel plus a single static binary, like a
> browser would be enough.

I don't think a browser can even be a static binary any more. I'm not
going to try to recall exactly which bits won't statically linked; I
suspect I'd get very depressed if I remembered.

Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P

[tlaronde]

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 03:56:18PM +0100, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:11:00 +0300
> Aram H?v?rneanu <aram.h@mgk.ro> wrote:
>
> > And I don't believe in full linux environments
> > in lguest, in general, a kernel plus a single static binary, like a
> > browser would be enough.
>
> I don't think a browser can even be a static binary any more. I'm not
> going to try to recall exactly which bits won't statically linked; I
> suspect I'd get very depressed if I remembered.
>

Last time I tried, I had to give up due to the dependencies of
dependencies of dependencies... of the X11 and above dynamically
shared libraries.

If simplicity is the shortest path to the truth, I'm afraid I'm not
convinced some people are on the right track to the truth...
--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P

[Bruce Ellis]

I will personally give a cheap-ass machine to the winner of the challenge.

brucee@pus-box:~$ uname -a
Linux pus-box 2.6.26-2-686 #1 SMP Sat Jun 11 14:54:10 UTC 2011 i686 GNU/Linux

It's the black thing in the corner.

It is strange that all this muck got stirred up again by the neat work
perpetrated by Ron et al and nemo's cool book.

Note that you are not covered by my medical insurance if you end up
like rob's happy hacker.

brucee

On 17 September 2011 01:17,  <tlaronde@polynum.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 03:56:18PM +0100, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:11:00 +0300
>> Aram H?v?rneanu <aram.h@mgk.ro> wrote:
>>
>> > And I don't believe in full linux environments
>> > in lguest, in general, a kernel plus a single static binary, like a
>> > browser would be enough.
>>
>> I don't think a browser can even be a static binary any more. I'm not
>> going to try to recall exactly which bits won't statically linked; I
>> suspect I'd get very depressed if I remembered.
>>
>
> Last time I tried, I had to give up due to the dependencies of
> dependencies of dependencies... of the X11 and above dynamically
> shared libraries.
>
> If simplicity is the shortest path to the truth, I'm afraid I'm not
> convinced some people are on the right track to the truth...
> --
>        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
>                      http://www.kergis.com/
> Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
>
>
>



-- 
Don't meddle in the mouth -- MVS (0416935147, +1-513-3BRUCEE)

Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P

[stephano zanzin]

Things are becoming very complex. Chromium even process C++ in the
client-side, civilization is dying.

On 9/16/11, tlaronde@polynum.com <tlaronde@polynum.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 03:56:18PM +0100, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:11:00 +0300
>> Aram H?v?rneanu <aram.h@mgk.ro> wrote:
>>
>> > And I don't believe in full linux environments
>> > in lguest, in general, a kernel plus a single static binary, like a
>> > browser would be enough.
>>
>> I don't think a browser can even be a static binary any more. I'm not
>> going to try to recall exactly which bits won't statically linked; I
>> suspect I'd get very depressed if I remembered.
>>
>
> Last time I tried, I had to give up due to the dependencies of
> dependencies of dependencies... of the X11 and above dynamically
> shared libraries.
>
> If simplicity is the shortest path to the truth, I'm afraid I'm not
> convinced some people are on the right track to the truth...
> --
>         Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
>                       http://www.kergis.com/
> Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
>
>
>


--
S.

Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P

[Steve Simon]

> I can't plumb a URL to Firefox running under the linuxulator.

I haven't tried this, but in theroy it would be easy enough
to write a plan9 dbus client and a plumbing rule which would
do exactly this.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 17:31:32 -0700 (PDT)
Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote:

> But all of these 'solutions' mean running a foreign binary under some sort
> of emulation.  None of these integrate with the native environment.  I.e.
> I can't plumb a URL to Firefox running under the linuxulator.  (Can I? If
> there's a way I can't find it.)

I've always assumed a plumber on one system could be made to talk to a
plumber on another; in particular between p9p and p9 with one of the
systems in a VM. I never actually got around to seeing how it might be
done, or if it was really practical.

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[Jens Staal]

2011/9/16 ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com>:
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Ethan Grammatikidis
> <eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:41:29 -0400
>> L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The goal should be a Plan 9 "distro" that runs natively on AMD-64, and can
>>> open a web-browser.
>>
>> That "goal" is a target moving at approximately the speed of light. Specifically, the "open a web browser" part of it is.
>>
>> A virtualizer running on Plan 9 would waste far less time than implementing enough Linux syscalls to run a Linux distro new enough to run any browser newer than Opera 9.
>
> That's a very interesting point. Implementing lguest on Plan 9 would
> require something like 13 "system calls". Far easier than doing the
> near-400 system calls of linux correctly.
>
> ron
>
>

Just out of interest, has anyone made a cross compiler either for the
32-bit Plan9 or 64-bit Nix target?

I have been looking a bit into the possibility of packaging the old
GCC 3.0 as a cross compiler on Arch linux. At the moment my builds
fail miserably since the build assumes that you build on a Plan9 host
(hard links in the binutils build to i386-lucent-plan9-ar etc). A
newer version (>4.6) would be cooler since it also supports the plan9
dialect of C. On the other hand, the cross compiler would just be a
neat way to build legacy stuff without having to worry about having
all the GNU tools on the target machine.

Alternatively - would a newlib approach be a better bet to get
binutils/gcc going? I have been trying to read up on it and to try to
locate the syscall information I need from plan9 libc. If anyone got
any pointers on how to do this, it would be appreciated :)

I am a total nooob on this though (unfortunately with very little
time, so my efforts are sporadic)

Ps.

I have an experimental PKGBUILD for nix on my machine. The basic idea
I got with that one is:
- static root at /opt/vx32/nix/root
- changes at /opt/vx32/nix/changes
- /usr/glenda moved to /home/glenda, user "glenda" added to system
(directory /opt/vx32/nix/usr removed)
- union mount /opt/nix/vx32/nix/root and /opt/nix/vx32/nix/changes at /mnt/nix
- mount /home at /mnt/nix/usr

It is not ready for public consumption yet however.
- One thing I wonder there about 9vx is - can you add a command line
argument to start a script in the plan9 that boots?
Right now building/packaging nix requires manual intervention in the
booted plan9 environment during packaging.
Also, it would be nice to have a "firstrun" part in the startup script
for a user so that the system executes /sys/lib/newuser.

This in combination with a cross compiler would turn playing with
Plan9 far easier and more fun :)

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[yy]

2011/9/16 Jens Staal <staal1978@gmail.com>:
> - One thing I wonder there about 9vx is - can you add a command line
> argument to start a script in the plan9 that boots?

Yes. See 9vxp in 9vx(1). Also, have a look at acmevx in the bin
directory as inspiration.


--
- yiyus || JGL .

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[ron minnich]

On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 8:46 PM, Jens Staal <staal1978@gmail.com> wrote:

> Alternatively - would a newlib approach be a better bet to get
> binutils/gcc going? I have been trying to read up on it and to try to
> locate the syscall information I need from plan9 libc. If anyone got
> any pointers on how to do this, it would be appreciated :)

I was unsure of the cross compiler idea. Was this to run on linux to
create plan 9 binaries?

If you really want to do that, just go ahead and port the plan 9 c
compilers etc. to unix. I did the amd64 linker in about 10 minutes.
It's very straightforward C code, far easier to port than the sort of
stuff you find in the GNU world -- someone once complained on this
list that Plan  9 C code was some sort of "old usage" or something --
they did not realize that was a *virtue*. The ?c would be a bit longer
to do but probably not much. Then you can compile all Plan 9 code on
Unix-like systems to target Plan 9.

That may not be what you meant.

ron

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[Jens Staal]

2011/9/19 ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com>:
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 8:46 PM, Jens Staal <staal1978@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Alternatively - would a newlib approach be a better bet to get
>> binutils/gcc going? I have been trying to read up on it and to try to
>> locate the syscall information I need from plan9 libc. If anyone got
>> any pointers on how to do this, it would be appreciated :)
>
> I was unsure of the cross compiler idea. Was this to run on linux to
> create plan 9 binaries?
>
> If you really want to do that, just go ahead and port the plan 9 c
> compilers etc. to unix. I did the amd64 linker in about 10 minutes.
> It's very straightforward C code, far easier to port than the sort of
> stuff you find in the GNU world -- someone once complained on this
> list that Plan  9 C code was some sort of "old usage" or something --
> they did not realize that was a *virtue*. The ?c would be a bit longer
> to do but probably not much. Then you can compile all Plan 9 code on
> Unix-like systems to target Plan 9.
>
> That may not be what you meant.
>
> ron
>
>


Actually it was the complete opposite that I wanted :)
The aim I had was basically to compile legacy lunix applications for
Plan9 on a lunix host. For hobby development such a cross compiler +
9vx could be a really nice environment to cut your teeth on while
figuring out the right way to do things.

I have been playing with trying to compile some legacy lunix
applications under APE with or without the old gcc (anyone else
experience a crashed 9vx when you try to use gcc?). Often stuff fail
due to configure scripts expecting GNU sed, autoconf etc (the gmake
port works nicely!)... I guess the "right" way would be to try to dig
through what they want to do and make a real mk file to compile it
instead, but I hoped for a lazier approach ;)

So what I was thinking (perhaps naively) was first to "just" compile
the ported gcc/binutils (/n/sources/extra/gcc) (which should have all
the executeable information for Plan9 in it) + the GCC-ified APE libs
on Linux as a cross compiler for Plan9 (and thus NOT have to worry
about porting all of GNU to APE first...).

After trying to learn about cross compilers I saw this thing about
newlib, where it seems like you can make a cross compiler suspiciously
easily [1, 2]. But as I said previously. I am a complete noob on this
and unfortunately very limited time to actually make it work, but if
someone got something similar done before (I suppose the initial GCC
port was cross compiled from a lunix host of some kind?), it would be
interesting to get it working (and preferrably on an "as modern"
version of GCC as possible).

[1] http://wiki.osdev.org/Porting_Newlib
[2] http://wiki.osdev.org/Boomstick

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[Charles Forsyth]

i thought it was great that something called "newlib" would still have
to implement a function called "isatty"

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[tlaronde]

On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 06:50:01PM +0100, Charles Forsyth wrote:
> i thought it was great that something called "newlib" would still have
> to implement a function called "isatty"

This has always been the problem with "new": it doesn't last... Same
goes for something dated "today"...
--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[erik quanstrom]

On Mon Sep 19 14:08:02 EDT 2011, tlaronde@polynum.com wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 06:50:01PM +0100, Charles Forsyth wrote:
> > i thought it was great that something called "newlib" would still have
> > to implement a function called "isatty"
>
> This has always been the problem with "new": it doesn't last... Same
> goes for something dated "today"...

doing is always dated today.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[Richard Miller]

> just go ahead and port the plan 9 c
> compilers etc. to unix

Already done.  The inferno distribution contains, in /utils, all
the Plan 9 xa, xc, xl (for x in [012568kv]) compilable by gcc.

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[Jens Staal]

2011/9/19 Richard Miller <9fans@hamnavoe.com>:
>> just go ahead and port the plan 9 c
>> compilers etc. to unix
>
> Already done.  The inferno distribution contains, in /utils, all
> the Plan 9 xa, xc, xl (for x in [012568kv]) compilable by gcc.

Would this be possible to use for a cross compiler with a Plan9
target? A kencc port (preferably including the APE pcc) as a cross
compiler on a lunix host could potentially also be interesting if it
would work. I guess this port [1] might be a good starting point?

Any pointers on how it would be done?

[1] http://code.google.com/p/ken-cc/

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[Richard Miller]

>> Already done.  The inferno distribution contains, in /utils, all
>> the Plan 9 xa, xc, xl (for x in [012568kv]) compilable by gcc.
>
> Would this be possible to use for a cross compiler with a Plan9
> target?

This *is* a cross compiler with a Plan 9 target.  It generates
Plan 9 binaries, which may be commands (to run under Plan 9 or 9vx)
or bootable files (e.g. kernels for Plan 9 or inferno, or stand-alone
programs for embedded hardware).

> I guess this port [1] might be a good starting point?
>
> [1] http://code.google.com/p/ken-cc/

That isn't a "port", it's just the same xa,xc,xl utils referred
to above, removed from the inferno distribution and placed in
their own self-contained package.

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[Steve Simon]

> That's a very interesting point. Implementing lguest on Plan 9 would
> require something like 13 "system calls". Far easier than doing the
> near-400 system calls of linux correctly.

At the cost of running an entire linux kernel on plan9...

cinap's linuxem (with my hacks) implements 139 syscalls and
seems to run most things. I haven't tried opera recently but my test
environment is in-sync with the stable Debian release (squeeze).

-Steve

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[erik quanstrom]

> That's a very interesting point. Implementing lguest on Plan 9 would
> require something like 13 "system calls". Far easier than doing the
> near-400 system calls of linux correctly.

i believe there's at least 2 and they're working on 3 abi for each system call.
it's like FAR and HUGE pointers are back from the dead.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[L N]

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On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 8:02 PM, Ethan Grammatikidis <eekee57@fastmail.fm>wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:41:29 -0400
> L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The goal should be a Plan 9 "distro" that runs natively on AMD-64, and
> can
> > open a web-browser.
>
> That "goal" is a target moving at approximately the speed of light.
> Specifically, the "open a web browser" part of it is.
>
> A virtualizer running on Plan 9 would waste far less time than implementing
> enough Linux syscalls to run a Linux distro new enough to run any browser
> newer than Opera 9.
>

Is running Opera on Plan 9 an option?

Also, I don't know how to get abaco running.

Downloaded the tarball ...

http://rain.ifmo.ru/~olegfink/abaco-p9p.tgz

Unpacked it, ran mk.

Ran ./abaco.sh.

Got this far ...

./abaco.sh
./abaco.sh: 7: webfs: not found
./abaco.sh: 10: abaco.bin: not found

Apologies for being helpless.

 - Leonard

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Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[David du Colombier]

> Is running Opera on Plan 9 an option?

Opera already runs fine in linuxemu.
I never tried the latest versions however.

/n/sources/contrib/cinap_lenrek/linuxemu3.tgz

> Also, I don't know how to get abaco running.

Abaco is included in Plan 9 since July 2009.

To run it, type:

% webcookies
% webfs
% abaco

--
David du Colombier

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[cinap_lenrek]

dont forget mothra!

--
cinap

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[Richard Miller]

> Abaco is included in Plan 9 since July 2009.
>
> To run it, type:
>
> % webcookies
> % webfs
> % abaco

Or even simpler: use readweb(1)

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[Jeff Sickel]

On Sep 14, 2011, at 5:17 PM, ron minnich wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 3:13 PM, L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Afraid to commit to booting native Plan-9 until I'm sure I can get openbox,
>> firefox, and chromium-browser working on it.
> 
> ah, now I see :-)
> http://www.clipartguide.com/_named_clipart_images/0511-0701-3117-1335_Skeleton_Behind_a_Business_Desk_clipart_image.jpg
> 
> ron

Nice pic.  If I squint I can even see the remains of my soul being
sucked out just above the cobwebs like they were on a prior job.

-jas

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[Rob Pike]

this is still my favorite:
http://gi52.photobucket.com/groups/g5/6DUVRHDUAT/typing.gif

-rob

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[hiro]

I want my monitor's brightness and color temperature to suit my
ambient light. I'm used to black text on white paper and I don't want
to see white squares behind black monitors.
Perhaps the only reason I bother is because I'm sitting in front of
pcs too long.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 23:55, s s <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:50 PM, hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Or use xpdf -rv
>> Although I use it for exactly the opposite purpose.
>
> How come no one likes high-contrast-inverse themes?
>
>

Re: [9fans] Nemo book

[s s]

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On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:50 PM, hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Or use xpdf -rv
> Although I use it for exactly the opposite purpose.
>

Somehow, plain text is much more enjoyable to read than pdf.

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