* [9fans] Nemo book @ 2011-09-14 21:43 s s 2011-09-14 21:46 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2011-09-14 21:50 ` hiro 0 siblings, 2 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: s s @ 2011-09-14 21:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 148 bytes --] Is there an html version of the nemo book? http://lsub.org/who/nemo/9.pdf Want to read it as white text on a black background. - Leonard [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 213 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 21:43 [9fans] Nemo book s s @ 2011-09-14 21:46 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2011-09-14 21:46 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2011-09-14 21:50 ` hiro 1 sibling, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread From: Francisco J Ballesteros @ 2011-09-14 21:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs IIRC there's a 9.txt.gz, not html, but raw text. On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:43 PM, s s <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote: > Is there an html version of the nemo book? > > http://lsub.org/who/nemo/9.pdf > > Want to read it as white text on a black background. > > - Leonard > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 21:46 ` Francisco J Ballesteros @ 2011-09-14 21:46 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2011-09-14 21:48 ` s s 2011-09-14 21:52 ` s s 0 siblings, 2 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: Francisco J Ballesteros @ 2011-09-14 21:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Yes, http://lsub.org/who/nemo/9.txt.gz On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Francisco J Ballesteros <nemo@lsub.org> wrote: > IIRC there's a 9.txt.gz, not html, but raw text. > > On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:43 PM, s s <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote: >> Is there an html version of the nemo book? >> >> http://lsub.org/who/nemo/9.pdf >> >> Want to read it as white text on a black background. >> >> - Leonard >> >> > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 21:46 ` Francisco J Ballesteros @ 2011-09-14 21:48 ` s s 2011-09-14 21:52 ` s s 1 sibling, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: s s @ 2011-09-14 21:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 139 bytes --] On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Francisco J Ballesteros <nemo@lsub.org>wrote: > Yes, http://lsub.org/who/nemo/9.txt.gz > > Cheers. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 455 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 21:46 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2011-09-14 21:48 ` s s @ 2011-09-14 21:52 ` s s 1 sibling, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: s s @ 2011-09-14 21:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 318 bytes --] On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Francisco J Ballesteros <nemo@lsub.org>wrote: > Yes, http://lsub.org/who/nemo/9.txt.gz > > Wow is that better. Too bad there is no css for pdf. (Or is there?) Viewing the book now with Firefox/Stylish/Blackify. http://userstyles.org/styles/2154/blackify - Leonard [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 733 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 21:43 [9fans] Nemo book s s 2011-09-14 21:46 ` Francisco J Ballesteros @ 2011-09-14 21:50 ` hiro 2011-09-14 21:55 ` s s 2011-09-14 21:58 ` s s 1 sibling, 2 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: hiro @ 2011-09-14 21:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Or use xpdf -rv Although I use it for exactly the opposite purpose. On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 23:43, s s <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote: > Is there an html version of the nemo book? > > http://lsub.org/who/nemo/9.pdf > > Want to read it as white text on a black background. > > - Leonard > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 21:50 ` hiro @ 2011-09-14 21:55 ` s s 2011-09-14 21:57 ` John Floren 2011-09-14 22:27 ` hiro 2011-09-14 21:58 ` s s 1 sibling, 2 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: s s @ 2011-09-14 21:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 204 bytes --] On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:50 PM, hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote: > Or use xpdf -rv > Although I use it for exactly the opposite purpose. > How come no one likes high-contrast-inverse themes? [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 471 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 21:55 ` s s @ 2011-09-14 21:57 ` John Floren 2011-09-14 22:13 ` L N 2011-09-14 22:27 ` hiro 1 sibling, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread From: John Floren @ 2011-09-14 21:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 2:55 PM, s s <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:50 PM, hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote: >> >> Or use xpdf -rv >> Although I use it for exactly the opposite purpose. > > How come no one likes high-contrast-inverse themes? > > Because we like our eyeballs. I think you're going to be pretty disappointed with the Plan 9 UIs, if you get around to booting it. John ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 21:57 ` John Floren @ 2011-09-14 22:13 ` L N 2011-09-14 22:17 ` ron minnich 0 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread From: L N @ 2011-09-14 22:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 864 bytes --] On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:57 PM, John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote: > On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 2:55 PM, s s <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:50 PM, hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote: > >> > >> Or use xpdf -rv > >> Although I use it for exactly the opposite purpose. > > > > How come no one likes high-contrast-inverse themes? > > > > > > Because we like our eyeballs. I think you're going to be pretty > disappointed with the Plan 9 UIs, if you get around to booting it. > > > > John > Right now running Ubuntu, with openbox. GTK theme is Wii-black. Tried using wmii, but for some reason sound stopped working, so still using openbox. Downloaded p9p and go9p. Afraid to commit to booting native Plan-9 until I'm sure I can get openbox, firefox, and chromium-browser working on it. - Leonard [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1396 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 22:13 ` L N @ 2011-09-14 22:17 ` ron minnich 2011-09-14 22:41 ` L N 2011-09-14 23:27 ` Jeff Sickel 0 siblings, 2 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2011-09-14 22:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 3:13 PM, L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote: > Afraid to commit to booting native Plan-9 until I'm sure I can get openbox, > firefox, and chromium-browser working on it. ah, now I see :-) http://www.clipartguide.com/_named_clipart_images/0511-0701-3117-1335_Skeleton_Behind_a_Business_Desk_clipart_image.jpg ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 22:17 ` ron minnich @ 2011-09-14 22:41 ` L N 2011-09-14 22:54 ` John Floren 2011-09-16 0:02 ` Ethan Grammatikidis 2011-09-14 23:27 ` Jeff Sickel 1 sibling, 2 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: L N @ 2011-09-14 22:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 897 bytes --] > ah, now I see :-) > > http://www.clipartguide.com/_named_clipart_images/0511-0701-3117-1335_Skeleton_Behind_a_Business_Desk_clipart_image.jpg > > ron > Maybe. The web-browser really is a deal-breaker, though. I really enjoyed reading about Plan 9, first at plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/, and later at cat-v.org. As much as I like the design of Plan 9, I also like surfing the web. It would be nice to boot Plan 9 natively on AMD-64, type startx, and open a browser. Unfortunately, I'm not at a level where I can really contribute to getting Plan 9 to that point. I think the focus of the Plan 9 community should be just that. The goal should be a Plan 9 "distro" that runs natively on AMD-64, and can open a web-browser. With the announcement of NIX, maybe we are already at that point? http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/good_bad_ugly/slides/28 - Leonard [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1543 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 22:41 ` L N @ 2011-09-14 22:54 ` John Floren 2011-09-14 23:14 ` Francisco J Ballesteros ` (2 more replies) 2011-09-16 0:02 ` Ethan Grammatikidis 1 sibling, 3 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: John Floren @ 2011-09-14 22:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 3:41 PM, L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote: > >> ah, now I see :-) >> >> http://www.clipartguide.com/_named_clipart_images/0511-0701-3117-1335_Skeleton_Behind_a_Business_Desk_clipart_image.jpg >> >> ron > > Maybe. > > The web-browser really is a deal-breaker, though. > > I really enjoyed reading about Plan 9, first at > plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/, and later at cat-v.org. > > As much as I like the design of Plan 9, I also like surfing the web. > > It would be nice to boot Plan 9 natively on AMD-64, type startx, and open a > browser. > > Unfortunately, I'm not at a level where I can really contribute to getting > Plan 9 to that point. > > I think the focus of the Plan 9 community should be just that. > > The goal should be a Plan 9 "distro" that runs natively on AMD-64, and can > open a web-browser. > > With the announcement of NIX, maybe we are already at that point? > > http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/good_bad_ugly/slides/28 > > - Leonard I think you have seriously misapprehended many things about Plan 9. We don't have X. We are not Linux compatible, although there's a rather decent Linux emulator. There is no GTK, no Qt, no Firefox, no modern C++ compiler. I think it's time for people to stop telling the "Plan 9 community" what its goals should be, when these people haven't even booted Plan 9. John ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 22:54 ` John Floren @ 2011-09-14 23:14 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2011-09-14 23:19 ` L N 2011-09-15 9:40 ` dexen deVries 2 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: Francisco J Ballesteros @ 2011-09-14 23:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs The point is that you can run multiple operating systems, these days, even on the same machine at the same time. There's no need to use the same one for everything. On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 12:54 AM, John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote: > On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 3:41 PM, L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> ah, now I see :-) >>> >>> http://www.clipartguide.com/_named_clipart_images/0511-0701-3117-1335_Skeleton_Behind_a_Business_Desk_clipart_image.jpg >>> >>> ron >> >> Maybe. >> >> The web-browser really is a deal-breaker, though. >> >> I really enjoyed reading about Plan 9, first at >> plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/, and later at cat-v.org. >> >> As much as I like the design of Plan 9, I also like surfing the web. >> >> It would be nice to boot Plan 9 natively on AMD-64, type startx, and open a >> browser. >> >> Unfortunately, I'm not at a level where I can really contribute to getting >> Plan 9 to that point. >> >> I think the focus of the Plan 9 community should be just that. >> >> The goal should be a Plan 9 "distro" that runs natively on AMD-64, and can >> open a web-browser. >> >> With the announcement of NIX, maybe we are already at that point? >> >> http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/good_bad_ugly/slides/28 >> >> - Leonard > > I think you have seriously misapprehended many things about Plan 9. > We don't have X. We are not Linux compatible, although there's a > rather decent Linux emulator. There is no GTK, no Qt, no Firefox, no > modern C++ compiler. > > I think it's time for people to stop telling the "Plan 9 community" > what its goals should be, when these people haven't even booted Plan > 9. > > John > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 22:54 ` John Floren 2011-09-14 23:14 ` Francisco J Ballesteros @ 2011-09-14 23:19 ` L N 2011-09-14 23:30 ` hiro ` (2 more replies) 2011-09-15 9:40 ` dexen deVries 2 siblings, 3 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: L N @ 2011-09-14 23:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 755 bytes --] > I think you have seriously misapprehended many things about Plan 9. > What am I misapprehending? > We don't have X. We are not Linux compatible, although there's a > rather decent Linux emulator. There is no GTK, no Qt, no Firefox, no > modern C++ compiler. > I don't need X, Linux compatibility, GTK, Qt, Firefox, or C++. I need an OS that runs a browser. I was using "startx" in the figurative sense. > > I think it's time for people to stop telling the "Plan 9 community" > what its goals should be, Are my-two-cents worth a negative amount? > when these people haven't even booted Plan > 9. > Why should I boot Plan 9, when I know I can't run a browser, and I already have p9p? John > - Leonard [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1704 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 23:19 ` L N @ 2011-09-14 23:30 ` hiro 2011-09-14 23:33 ` ron minnich 2011-09-14 23:32 ` ron minnich 2011-09-14 23:43 ` Nick LaForge 2 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread From: hiro @ 2011-09-14 23:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Plan 9 is an OS, p9p is less. If all you need from Plan 9 is in p9p no need to boot Plan 9. We have a browser, but not one with all the newest craze (no html5, js, flash, gl). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 23:30 ` hiro @ 2011-09-14 23:33 ` ron minnich 2011-09-14 23:43 ` Akshat Kumar 2011-09-15 0:39 ` L N 0 siblings, 2 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2011-09-14 23:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 4:30 PM, hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote: > Plan 9 is an OS, p9p is less. > If all you need from Plan 9 is in p9p no need to boot Plan 9. > We have a browser, but not one with all the newest craze (no html5, > js, flash, gl). > > Although for my money abaco is still really neat ... ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 23:33 ` ron minnich @ 2011-09-14 23:43 ` Akshat Kumar 2011-09-14 23:45 ` hiro 2011-09-15 0:39 ` L N 1 sibling, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread From: Akshat Kumar @ 2011-09-14 23:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs abaco is free. :-) > Although for my money abaco is still really neat ... > > ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 23:43 ` Akshat Kumar @ 2011-09-14 23:45 ` hiro 0 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: hiro @ 2011-09-14 23:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs invest some time then. On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 01:43, Akshat Kumar <akumar@mail.nanosouffle.net> wrote: > abaco is free. > > :-) > >> Although for my money abaco is still really neat ... >> >> ron > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 23:33 ` ron minnich 2011-09-14 23:43 ` Akshat Kumar @ 2011-09-15 0:39 ` L N 1 sibling, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: L N @ 2011-09-15 0:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 255 bytes --] On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 7:33 PM, ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Although for my money abaco is still really neat ... > > ron > > I wonder if I can get abaco to display pages with a high-contrast-inverse theme. :] - Leonard [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 600 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 23:19 ` L N 2011-09-14 23:30 ` hiro @ 2011-09-14 23:32 ` ron minnich 2011-09-14 23:43 ` Nick LaForge 2 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2011-09-14 23:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 4:19 PM, L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote: > Why should I boot Plan 9, when I know I can't run a browser, and I already > have p9p? um, precisely. You should not. So use p9p. Let's get back to trying to figure out where the Ted Stevens quote is in the NIX source. thanks ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 23:19 ` L N 2011-09-14 23:30 ` hiro 2011-09-14 23:32 ` ron minnich @ 2011-09-14 23:43 ` Nick LaForge 2 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: Nick LaForge @ 2011-09-14 23:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Since you're on Ubuntu, why don't you start learning the ropes of the Plan 9 programming environment by compiling/running 9vx on Ubuntu and then hitting the papers? That way you can easily continue to use Mozilla and invest minimal time before being able to actually get something out of Plan 9 (you'll need to write some file servers as well as thoroughly appreciate the concurrency model). You'll find 9vx is also a great utility for more effectively using Linux. Inside 9vx, you should also see 'man 1 abaco' and decide if you really need Mozilla. Nick On 9/14/11, L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote: >> I think you have seriously misapprehended many things about Plan 9. >> > > What am I misapprehending? > > >> We don't have X. We are not Linux compatible, although there's a >> rather decent Linux emulator. There is no GTK, no Qt, no Firefox, no >> modern C++ compiler. >> > > I don't need X, Linux compatibility, GTK, Qt, Firefox, or C++. > > I need an OS that runs a browser. > > I was using "startx" in the figurative sense. > > >> >> I think it's time for people to stop telling the "Plan 9 community" >> what its goals should be, > > > Are my-two-cents worth a negative amount? > > >> when these people haven't even booted Plan >> 9. >> > > Why should I boot Plan 9, when I know I can't run a browser, and I already > have p9p? > > John >> > > - Leonard > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 22:54 ` John Floren 2011-09-14 23:14 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2011-09-14 23:19 ` L N @ 2011-09-15 9:40 ` dexen deVries 2 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: dexen deVries @ 2011-09-15 9:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Thursday 15 of September 2011 00:54:11 John Floren wrote: > (...) > I think you have seriously misapprehended many things about Plan 9. > We don't have X. We are not Linux compatible, although there's a > rather decent Linux emulator. There is no GTK, no Qt, no Firefox, no > modern C++ compiler. > > I think it's time for people to stop telling the "Plan 9 community" > what its goals should be, when these people haven't even booted Plan > 9. I'm one of the `never even booted Plan 9' folks, and I agree with John 100%. Let Plan 9 do things the Plan 9 way, for better or worse. And let the real needs influence what gets implemented first and what later on. If there's pressing need for /native/ full-blown browser, some of the likes of Abaco will be improved to that point. If Plan 9 tries hard to emulate Linux first and innovate second, it'll become stagnant and irrelevant. -- dexen deVries [[[↓][→]]] For example, if the first thing in the file is: <?kzy irefvba="1.0" rapbqvat="ebg13"?> an XML parser will recognize that the document is stored in the traditional ROT13 encoding. (( Joe English, http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/faq-not.txt )) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 22:41 ` L N 2011-09-14 22:54 ` John Floren @ 2011-09-16 0:02 ` Ethan Grammatikidis 2011-09-16 0:15 ` ron minnich ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: Ethan Grammatikidis @ 2011-09-16 0:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:41:29 -0400 L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote: > The goal should be a Plan 9 "distro" that runs natively on AMD-64, and can > open a web-browser. That "goal" is a target moving at approximately the speed of light. Specifically, the "open a web browser" part of it is. A virtualizer running on Plan 9 would waste far less time than implementing enough Linux syscalls to run a Linux distro new enough to run any browser newer than Opera 9. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-16 0:02 ` Ethan Grammatikidis @ 2011-09-16 0:15 ` ron minnich 2011-09-16 0:31 ` [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P Lyndon Nerenberg ` (2 more replies) [not found] ` <CAP6exYK+8TbaceUcfTAnuWruxahHvMmSgqGHKpH7jcZME=C5ww@mail.gmail.c> 2011-09-16 4:52 ` L N 2 siblings, 3 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2011-09-16 0:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Ethan Grammatikidis <eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote: > On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:41:29 -0400 > L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote: > >> The goal should be a Plan 9 "distro" that runs natively on AMD-64, and can >> open a web-browser. > > That "goal" is a target moving at approximately the speed of light. Specifically, the "open a web browser" part of it is. > > A virtualizer running on Plan 9 would waste far less time than implementing enough Linux syscalls to run a Linux distro new enough to run any browser newer than Opera 9. That's a very interesting point. Implementing lguest on Plan 9 would require something like 13 "system calls". Far easier than doing the near-400 system calls of linux correctly. ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P 2011-09-16 0:15 ` ron minnich @ 2011-09-16 0:31 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 2011-09-16 0:41 ` ron minnich ` (5 more replies) 2011-09-16 3:46 ` [9fans] Nemo book Jens Staal 2011-09-16 11:15 ` Steve Simon 2 siblings, 6 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: Lyndon Nerenberg @ 2011-09-16 0:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Thu, 15 Sep 2011, ron minnich wrote: > <eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote: >> A virtualizer running on Plan 9 would waste far less time than implementing enough Linux syscalls to run a Linux distro new enough to run any browser newer than Opera 9. > That's a very interesting point. Implementing lguest on Plan 9 would > require something like 13 "system calls". Far easier than doing the > near-400 system calls of linux correctly. But all of these 'solutions' mean running a foreign binary under some sort of emulation. None of these integrate with the native environment. I.e. I can't plumb a URL to Firefox running under the linuxulator. (Can I? If there's a way I can't find it.) And that being the case, how are these emulated browsers any different from cranking up vncv to an external host and running the browser there? (I fully expect Eric to leap in here and point out he has nothing other than Plan9 running :-) Anyone else?) While it's mildly annoying, I still manage quite well with vncv and Firefox running on a UNIX host. Said host has u9fs and mounts under /n on the Plan9 hosts, so it's not that difficult to save things and copy them into a permanent home on the file server. And it's trivial to code up an rc script that uses ssh to pass URLs to a remote browser instance. Wouldn't we be better off rewriting the Plan 9 kernel in Javascript? --lyndon ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P 2011-09-16 0:31 ` [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P Lyndon Nerenberg @ 2011-09-16 0:41 ` ron minnich 2011-09-16 0:53 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 2011-09-16 1:21 ` erik quanstrom ` (4 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2011-09-16 0:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs But doing the lguest bit might be fun for someone. ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P 2011-09-16 0:41 ` ron minnich @ 2011-09-16 0:53 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 0 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: Lyndon Nerenberg @ 2011-09-16 0:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > But doing the lguest bit might be fun for someone. No doubt, but please don't sully the idea of doing something for the sheer pleasure of learning with the idea that life without the web isn't worth living. (Wait, that just might have solved the problem ...) On a slightly related note, I did spend a bit of time poking around the W3C source code archives. If someone consumed enough mescaline there's a chance the core libraries could be ported, leading to a lynx-like native client. And a graphics-free browser is still a (mostly) viable option these days. I'm living on the boat right now, behind an insanely expensive 3G data stick, so I run Firefox with graphics turned off. I've only had to enable graphics for one site that simply won't function without its GIF buttons. I don't think there's any hope of getting away without Javascript anymore, though :-P --lyndon ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P 2011-09-16 0:31 ` [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P Lyndon Nerenberg 2011-09-16 0:41 ` ron minnich @ 2011-09-16 1:21 ` erik quanstrom 2011-09-16 2:13 ` Bruce Ellis 2011-09-16 5:53 ` Anthony Sorace ` (3 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2011-09-16 1:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: lyndon, 9fans > and running the browser there? (I fully expect Eric to leap in here and > point out he has nothing other than Plan9 running :-) Anyone else?) i'm running a few embedded oses, too, and as of 5 minutes ago, nix. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P 2011-09-16 1:21 ` erik quanstrom @ 2011-09-16 2:13 ` Bruce Ellis 2011-09-16 2:46 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 2011-09-16 14:52 ` Ethan Grammatikidis 0 siblings, 2 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: Bruce Ellis @ 2011-09-16 2:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs If you can't run your holy grail (back off about badgers) - a web browser - and plan9 on the same cheap ass machine (or two if you insist on a native bunny) then I believe you can apply to the United Nations for Whining Remedial Sillyman Assistance - and get off my grass. brucee On 16 September 2011 11:21, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote: >> and running the browser there? (I fully expect Eric to leap in here and >> point out he has nothing other than Plan9 running :-) Anyone else?) > > i'm running a few embedded oses, too, and as of 5 minutes ago, nix. > > - erik > > -- Don't meddle in the mouth -- MVS (0416935147, +1-513-3BRUCEE) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P 2011-09-16 2:13 ` Bruce Ellis @ 2011-09-16 2:46 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 2011-09-16 3:58 ` Bruce Ellis 2011-09-16 14:52 ` Ethan Grammatikidis 1 sibling, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread From: Lyndon Nerenberg @ 2011-09-16 2:46 UTC (permalink / raw) > If you can't run your holy grail (back off about badgers) - a web > browser What do you mean? The badgers are better conversationalists. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P 2011-09-16 2:46 ` Lyndon Nerenberg @ 2011-09-16 3:58 ` Bruce Ellis 0 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: Bruce Ellis @ 2011-09-16 3:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Than you? I agree. On 16 September 2011 12:46, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote: >> If you can't run your holy grail (back off about badgers) - a web >> browser > > What do you mean? The badgers are better conversationalists. > > -- Don't meddle in the mouth -- MVS (0416935147, +1-513-3BRUCEE) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P 2011-09-16 2:13 ` Bruce Ellis 2011-09-16 2:46 ` Lyndon Nerenberg @ 2011-09-16 14:52 ` Ethan Grammatikidis 1 sibling, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: Ethan Grammatikidis @ 2011-09-16 14:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 12:13:50 +1000 Bruce Ellis <bruce.ellis@gmail.com> wrote: > If you can't run your holy grail (back off about badgers) - a web > browser - and plan9 on the same cheap ass machine Speaking of cheap-ass machines, 9vx is stable enough for me on my Atom netbook. Gv aside, it's given me less trouble than the Linux kernel underneath. I'm currently using Ron's 9vx tree. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P 2011-09-16 0:31 ` [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P Lyndon Nerenberg 2011-09-16 0:41 ` ron minnich 2011-09-16 1:21 ` erik quanstrom @ 2011-09-16 5:53 ` Anthony Sorace 2011-09-16 10:11 ` Aram Hăvărneanu ` (2 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: Anthony Sorace @ 2011-09-16 5:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Sep 15, 2011, at 17:31, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote: > None of these integrate with the native environment. I.e. I can't plumb a URL to Firefox running under the Not out of the box, no. But the plumber's remarkably flexible, and especially if someone had p9p running inside your virtual environment, I'd be shocked if that sort of cross-VM plumbing (pardon the terminology overloading) couldn't be done in an hour. I've done it between OS X and Plan 9 via drawterm in about 20 minutes, and while I do think that's a bit of an easier target, not by more than an order of magnitude. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P 2011-09-16 0:31 ` [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P Lyndon Nerenberg ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2011-09-16 5:53 ` Anthony Sorace @ 2011-09-16 10:11 ` Aram Hăvărneanu 2011-09-16 14:56 ` Ethan Grammatikidis 2011-09-16 11:28 ` Steve Simon 2011-09-16 14:43 ` Ethan Grammatikidis 5 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread From: Aram Hăvărneanu @ 2011-09-16 10:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs > None of these integrate with the native environment. I.e. I > can't plumb a URL to Firefox running under the linuxulator. I think adding a few interoperability devices in Linux's /dev would be about an hour of work. And I don't believe in full linux environments in lguest, in general, a kernel plus a single static binary, like a browser would be enough. And it could use 9p directly, no need for a local virtual disk. -- Aram Hăvărneanu ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P 2011-09-16 10:11 ` Aram Hăvărneanu @ 2011-09-16 14:56 ` Ethan Grammatikidis 2011-09-16 15:17 ` tlaronde 0 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread From: Ethan Grammatikidis @ 2011-09-16 14:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:11:00 +0300 Aram Hăvărneanu <aram.h@mgk.ro> wrote: > And I don't believe in full linux environments > in lguest, in general, a kernel plus a single static binary, like a > browser would be enough. I don't think a browser can even be a static binary any more. I'm not going to try to recall exactly which bits won't statically linked; I suspect I'd get very depressed if I remembered. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P 2011-09-16 14:56 ` Ethan Grammatikidis @ 2011-09-16 15:17 ` tlaronde 2011-09-16 17:36 ` Bruce Ellis 2011-09-18 5:39 ` stephano zanzin 0 siblings, 2 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: tlaronde @ 2011-09-16 15:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 03:56:18PM +0100, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: > On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:11:00 +0300 > Aram H?v?rneanu <aram.h@mgk.ro> wrote: > > > And I don't believe in full linux environments > > in lguest, in general, a kernel plus a single static binary, like a > > browser would be enough. > > I don't think a browser can even be a static binary any more. I'm not > going to try to recall exactly which bits won't statically linked; I > suspect I'd get very depressed if I remembered. > Last time I tried, I had to give up due to the dependencies of dependencies of dependencies... of the X11 and above dynamically shared libraries. If simplicity is the shortest path to the truth, I'm afraid I'm not convinced some people are on the right track to the truth... -- Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com> http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P 2011-09-16 15:17 ` tlaronde @ 2011-09-16 17:36 ` Bruce Ellis 2011-09-18 5:39 ` stephano zanzin 1 sibling, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: Bruce Ellis @ 2011-09-16 17:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs I will personally give a cheap-ass machine to the winner of the challenge. brucee@pus-box:~$ uname -a Linux pus-box 2.6.26-2-686 #1 SMP Sat Jun 11 14:54:10 UTC 2011 i686 GNU/Linux It's the black thing in the corner. It is strange that all this muck got stirred up again by the neat work perpetrated by Ron et al and nemo's cool book. Note that you are not covered by my medical insurance if you end up like rob's happy hacker. brucee On 17 September 2011 01:17, <tlaronde@polynum.com> wrote: > On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 03:56:18PM +0100, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: >> On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:11:00 +0300 >> Aram H?v?rneanu <aram.h@mgk.ro> wrote: >> >> > And I don't believe in full linux environments >> > in lguest, in general, a kernel plus a single static binary, like a >> > browser would be enough. >> >> I don't think a browser can even be a static binary any more. I'm not >> going to try to recall exactly which bits won't statically linked; I >> suspect I'd get very depressed if I remembered. >> > > Last time I tried, I had to give up due to the dependencies of > dependencies of dependencies... of the X11 and above dynamically > shared libraries. > > If simplicity is the shortest path to the truth, I'm afraid I'm not > convinced some people are on the right track to the truth... > -- > Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com> > http://www.kergis.com/ > Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C > > > -- Don't meddle in the mouth -- MVS (0416935147, +1-513-3BRUCEE) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P 2011-09-16 15:17 ` tlaronde 2011-09-16 17:36 ` Bruce Ellis @ 2011-09-18 5:39 ` stephano zanzin 1 sibling, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: stephano zanzin @ 2011-09-18 5:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Things are becoming very complex. Chromium even process C++ in the client-side, civilization is dying. On 9/16/11, tlaronde@polynum.com <tlaronde@polynum.com> wrote: > On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 03:56:18PM +0100, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: >> On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:11:00 +0300 >> Aram H?v?rneanu <aram.h@mgk.ro> wrote: >> >> > And I don't believe in full linux environments >> > in lguest, in general, a kernel plus a single static binary, like a >> > browser would be enough. >> >> I don't think a browser can even be a static binary any more. I'm not >> going to try to recall exactly which bits won't statically linked; I >> suspect I'd get very depressed if I remembered. >> > > Last time I tried, I had to give up due to the dependencies of > dependencies of dependencies... of the X11 and above dynamically > shared libraries. > > If simplicity is the shortest path to the truth, I'm afraid I'm not > convinced some people are on the right track to the truth... > -- > Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com> > http://www.kergis.com/ > Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C > > > -- S. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P 2011-09-16 0:31 ` [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P Lyndon Nerenberg ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 2011-09-16 10:11 ` Aram Hăvărneanu @ 2011-09-16 11:28 ` Steve Simon 2011-09-16 14:43 ` Ethan Grammatikidis 5 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: Steve Simon @ 2011-09-16 11:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I can't plumb a URL to Firefox running under the linuxulator. I haven't tried this, but in theroy it would be easy enough to write a plan9 dbus client and a plumbing rule which would do exactly this. -Steve ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P 2011-09-16 0:31 ` [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P Lyndon Nerenberg ` (4 preceding siblings ...) 2011-09-16 11:28 ` Steve Simon @ 2011-09-16 14:43 ` Ethan Grammatikidis 5 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: Ethan Grammatikidis @ 2011-09-16 14:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 17:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote: > But all of these 'solutions' mean running a foreign binary under some sort > of emulation. None of these integrate with the native environment. I.e. > I can't plumb a URL to Firefox running under the linuxulator. (Can I? If > there's a way I can't find it.) I've always assumed a plumber on one system could be made to talk to a plumber on another; in particular between p9p and p9 with one of the systems in a VM. I never actually got around to seeing how it might be done, or if it was really practical. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-16 0:15 ` ron minnich 2011-09-16 0:31 ` [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P Lyndon Nerenberg @ 2011-09-16 3:46 ` Jens Staal 2011-09-16 9:07 ` yy 2011-09-19 15:43 ` ron minnich 2011-09-16 11:15 ` Steve Simon 2 siblings, 2 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: Jens Staal @ 2011-09-16 3:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 2011/9/16 ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com>: > On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Ethan Grammatikidis > <eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote: >> On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:41:29 -0400 >> L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> The goal should be a Plan 9 "distro" that runs natively on AMD-64, and can >>> open a web-browser. >> >> That "goal" is a target moving at approximately the speed of light. Specifically, the "open a web browser" part of it is. >> >> A virtualizer running on Plan 9 would waste far less time than implementing enough Linux syscalls to run a Linux distro new enough to run any browser newer than Opera 9. > > That's a very interesting point. Implementing lguest on Plan 9 would > require something like 13 "system calls". Far easier than doing the > near-400 system calls of linux correctly. > > ron > > Just out of interest, has anyone made a cross compiler either for the 32-bit Plan9 or 64-bit Nix target? I have been looking a bit into the possibility of packaging the old GCC 3.0 as a cross compiler on Arch linux. At the moment my builds fail miserably since the build assumes that you build on a Plan9 host (hard links in the binutils build to i386-lucent-plan9-ar etc). A newer version (>4.6) would be cooler since it also supports the plan9 dialect of C. On the other hand, the cross compiler would just be a neat way to build legacy stuff without having to worry about having all the GNU tools on the target machine. Alternatively - would a newlib approach be a better bet to get binutils/gcc going? I have been trying to read up on it and to try to locate the syscall information I need from plan9 libc. If anyone got any pointers on how to do this, it would be appreciated :) I am a total nooob on this though (unfortunately with very little time, so my efforts are sporadic) Ps. I have an experimental PKGBUILD for nix on my machine. The basic idea I got with that one is: - static root at /opt/vx32/nix/root - changes at /opt/vx32/nix/changes - /usr/glenda moved to /home/glenda, user "glenda" added to system (directory /opt/vx32/nix/usr removed) - union mount /opt/nix/vx32/nix/root and /opt/nix/vx32/nix/changes at /mnt/nix - mount /home at /mnt/nix/usr It is not ready for public consumption yet however. - One thing I wonder there about 9vx is - can you add a command line argument to start a script in the plan9 that boots? Right now building/packaging nix requires manual intervention in the booted plan9 environment during packaging. Also, it would be nice to have a "firstrun" part in the startup script for a user so that the system executes /sys/lib/newuser. This in combination with a cross compiler would turn playing with Plan9 far easier and more fun :) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-16 3:46 ` [9fans] Nemo book Jens Staal @ 2011-09-16 9:07 ` yy 2011-09-19 15:43 ` ron minnich 1 sibling, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: yy @ 2011-09-16 9:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 2011/9/16 Jens Staal <staal1978@gmail.com>: > - One thing I wonder there about 9vx is - can you add a command line > argument to start a script in the plan9 that boots? Yes. See 9vxp in 9vx(1). Also, have a look at acmevx in the bin directory as inspiration. -- - yiyus || JGL . ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-16 3:46 ` [9fans] Nemo book Jens Staal 2011-09-16 9:07 ` yy @ 2011-09-19 15:43 ` ron minnich 2011-09-19 16:37 ` Jens Staal 2011-09-19 20:32 ` Richard Miller 1 sibling, 2 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2011-09-19 15:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 8:46 PM, Jens Staal <staal1978@gmail.com> wrote: > Alternatively - would a newlib approach be a better bet to get > binutils/gcc going? I have been trying to read up on it and to try to > locate the syscall information I need from plan9 libc. If anyone got > any pointers on how to do this, it would be appreciated :) I was unsure of the cross compiler idea. Was this to run on linux to create plan 9 binaries? If you really want to do that, just go ahead and port the plan 9 c compilers etc. to unix. I did the amd64 linker in about 10 minutes. It's very straightforward C code, far easier to port than the sort of stuff you find in the GNU world -- someone once complained on this list that Plan 9 C code was some sort of "old usage" or something -- they did not realize that was a *virtue*. The ?c would be a bit longer to do but probably not much. Then you can compile all Plan 9 code on Unix-like systems to target Plan 9. That may not be what you meant. ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-19 15:43 ` ron minnich @ 2011-09-19 16:37 ` Jens Staal 2011-09-19 17:50 ` Charles Forsyth 2011-09-19 20:32 ` Richard Miller 1 sibling, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread From: Jens Staal @ 2011-09-19 16:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 2011/9/19 ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com>: > On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 8:46 PM, Jens Staal <staal1978@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Alternatively - would a newlib approach be a better bet to get >> binutils/gcc going? I have been trying to read up on it and to try to >> locate the syscall information I need from plan9 libc. If anyone got >> any pointers on how to do this, it would be appreciated :) > > I was unsure of the cross compiler idea. Was this to run on linux to > create plan 9 binaries? > > If you really want to do that, just go ahead and port the plan 9 c > compilers etc. to unix. I did the amd64 linker in about 10 minutes. > It's very straightforward C code, far easier to port than the sort of > stuff you find in the GNU world -- someone once complained on this > list that Plan 9 C code was some sort of "old usage" or something -- > they did not realize that was a *virtue*. The ?c would be a bit longer > to do but probably not much. Then you can compile all Plan 9 code on > Unix-like systems to target Plan 9. > > That may not be what you meant. > > ron > > Actually it was the complete opposite that I wanted :) The aim I had was basically to compile legacy lunix applications for Plan9 on a lunix host. For hobby development such a cross compiler + 9vx could be a really nice environment to cut your teeth on while figuring out the right way to do things. I have been playing with trying to compile some legacy lunix applications under APE with or without the old gcc (anyone else experience a crashed 9vx when you try to use gcc?). Often stuff fail due to configure scripts expecting GNU sed, autoconf etc (the gmake port works nicely!)... I guess the "right" way would be to try to dig through what they want to do and make a real mk file to compile it instead, but I hoped for a lazier approach ;) So what I was thinking (perhaps naively) was first to "just" compile the ported gcc/binutils (/n/sources/extra/gcc) (which should have all the executeable information for Plan9 in it) + the GCC-ified APE libs on Linux as a cross compiler for Plan9 (and thus NOT have to worry about porting all of GNU to APE first...). After trying to learn about cross compilers I saw this thing about newlib, where it seems like you can make a cross compiler suspiciously easily [1, 2]. But as I said previously. I am a complete noob on this and unfortunately very limited time to actually make it work, but if someone got something similar done before (I suppose the initial GCC port was cross compiled from a lunix host of some kind?), it would be interesting to get it working (and preferrably on an "as modern" version of GCC as possible). [1] http://wiki.osdev.org/Porting_Newlib [2] http://wiki.osdev.org/Boomstick ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-19 16:37 ` Jens Staal @ 2011-09-19 17:50 ` Charles Forsyth 2011-09-19 18:10 ` tlaronde 0 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread From: Charles Forsyth @ 2011-09-19 17:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans i thought it was great that something called "newlib" would still have to implement a function called "isatty" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-19 17:50 ` Charles Forsyth @ 2011-09-19 18:10 ` tlaronde 2011-09-19 18:21 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread From: tlaronde @ 2011-09-19 18:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 06:50:01PM +0100, Charles Forsyth wrote: > i thought it was great that something called "newlib" would still have > to implement a function called "isatty" This has always been the problem with "new": it doesn't last... Same goes for something dated "today"... -- Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com> http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-19 18:10 ` tlaronde @ 2011-09-19 18:21 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2011-09-19 18:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Mon Sep 19 14:08:02 EDT 2011, tlaronde@polynum.com wrote: > On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 06:50:01PM +0100, Charles Forsyth wrote: > > i thought it was great that something called "newlib" would still have > > to implement a function called "isatty" > > This has always been the problem with "new": it doesn't last... Same > goes for something dated "today"... doing is always dated today. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-19 15:43 ` ron minnich 2011-09-19 16:37 ` Jens Staal @ 2011-09-19 20:32 ` Richard Miller 2011-09-20 3:20 ` Jens Staal 1 sibling, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread From: Richard Miller @ 2011-09-19 20:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > just go ahead and port the plan 9 c > compilers etc. to unix Already done. The inferno distribution contains, in /utils, all the Plan 9 xa, xc, xl (for x in [012568kv]) compilable by gcc. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-19 20:32 ` Richard Miller @ 2011-09-20 3:20 ` Jens Staal 2011-09-20 10:07 ` Richard Miller 0 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread From: Jens Staal @ 2011-09-20 3:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs 2011/9/19 Richard Miller <9fans@hamnavoe.com>: >> just go ahead and port the plan 9 c >> compilers etc. to unix > > Already done. The inferno distribution contains, in /utils, all > the Plan 9 xa, xc, xl (for x in [012568kv]) compilable by gcc. Would this be possible to use for a cross compiler with a Plan9 target? A kencc port (preferably including the APE pcc) as a cross compiler on a lunix host could potentially also be interesting if it would work. I guess this port [1] might be a good starting point? Any pointers on how it would be done? [1] http://code.google.com/p/ken-cc/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-20 3:20 ` Jens Staal @ 2011-09-20 10:07 ` Richard Miller 0 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: Richard Miller @ 2011-09-20 10:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans >> Already done. The inferno distribution contains, in /utils, all >> the Plan 9 xa, xc, xl (for x in [012568kv]) compilable by gcc. > > Would this be possible to use for a cross compiler with a Plan9 > target? This *is* a cross compiler with a Plan 9 target. It generates Plan 9 binaries, which may be commands (to run under Plan 9 or 9vx) or bootable files (e.g. kernels for Plan 9 or inferno, or stand-alone programs for embedded hardware). > I guess this port [1] might be a good starting point? > > [1] http://code.google.com/p/ken-cc/ That isn't a "port", it's just the same xa,xc,xl utils referred to above, removed from the inferno distribution and placed in their own self-contained package. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-16 0:15 ` ron minnich 2011-09-16 0:31 ` [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P Lyndon Nerenberg 2011-09-16 3:46 ` [9fans] Nemo book Jens Staal @ 2011-09-16 11:15 ` Steve Simon 2 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: Steve Simon @ 2011-09-16 11:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > That's a very interesting point. Implementing lguest on Plan 9 would > require something like 13 "system calls". Far easier than doing the > near-400 system calls of linux correctly. At the cost of running an entire linux kernel on plan9... cinap's linuxem (with my hacks) implements 139 syscalls and seems to run most things. I haven't tried opera recently but my test environment is in-sync with the stable Debian release (squeeze). -Steve ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <CAP6exYK+8TbaceUcfTAnuWruxahHvMmSgqGHKpH7jcZME=C5ww@mail.gmail.c>]
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book [not found] ` <CAP6exYK+8TbaceUcfTAnuWruxahHvMmSgqGHKpH7jcZME=C5ww@mail.gmail.c> @ 2011-09-16 0:18 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2011-09-16 0:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > That's a very interesting point. Implementing lguest on Plan 9 would > require something like 13 "system calls". Far easier than doing the > near-400 system calls of linux correctly. i believe there's at least 2 and they're working on 3 abi for each system call. it's like FAR and HUGE pointers are back from the dead. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-16 0:02 ` Ethan Grammatikidis 2011-09-16 0:15 ` ron minnich [not found] ` <CAP6exYK+8TbaceUcfTAnuWruxahHvMmSgqGHKpH7jcZME=C5ww@mail.gmail.c> @ 2011-09-16 4:52 ` L N 2011-09-16 7:21 ` David du Colombier 2 siblings, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread From: L N @ 2011-09-16 4:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 949 bytes --] On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 8:02 PM, Ethan Grammatikidis <eekee57@fastmail.fm>wrote: > On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:41:29 -0400 > L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote: > > > The goal should be a Plan 9 "distro" that runs natively on AMD-64, and > can > > open a web-browser. > > That "goal" is a target moving at approximately the speed of light. > Specifically, the "open a web browser" part of it is. > > A virtualizer running on Plan 9 would waste far less time than implementing > enough Linux syscalls to run a Linux distro new enough to run any browser > newer than Opera 9. > Is running Opera on Plan 9 an option? Also, I don't know how to get abaco running. Downloaded the tarball ... http://rain.ifmo.ru/~olegfink/abaco-p9p.tgz Unpacked it, ran mk. Ran ./abaco.sh. Got this far ... ./abaco.sh ./abaco.sh: 7: webfs: not found ./abaco.sh: 10: abaco.bin: not found Apologies for being helpless. - Leonard [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1463 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-16 4:52 ` L N @ 2011-09-16 7:21 ` David du Colombier 2011-09-16 7:28 ` cinap_lenrek 2011-09-16 8:33 ` Richard Miller 0 siblings, 2 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: David du Colombier @ 2011-09-16 7:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Is running Opera on Plan 9 an option? Opera already runs fine in linuxemu. I never tried the latest versions however. /n/sources/contrib/cinap_lenrek/linuxemu3.tgz > Also, I don't know how to get abaco running. Abaco is included in Plan 9 since July 2009. To run it, type: % webcookies % webfs % abaco -- David du Colombier ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-16 7:21 ` David du Colombier @ 2011-09-16 7:28 ` cinap_lenrek 2011-09-16 8:33 ` Richard Miller 1 sibling, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: cinap_lenrek @ 2011-09-16 7:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans dont forget mothra! -- cinap ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-16 7:21 ` David du Colombier 2011-09-16 7:28 ` cinap_lenrek @ 2011-09-16 8:33 ` Richard Miller 1 sibling, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: Richard Miller @ 2011-09-16 8:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Abaco is included in Plan 9 since July 2009. > > To run it, type: > > % webcookies > % webfs > % abaco Or even simpler: use readweb(1) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 22:17 ` ron minnich 2011-09-14 22:41 ` L N @ 2011-09-14 23:27 ` Jeff Sickel 2011-09-14 23:55 ` Rob Pike 1 sibling, 1 reply; 60+ messages in thread From: Jeff Sickel @ 2011-09-14 23:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Sep 14, 2011, at 5:17 PM, ron minnich wrote: > On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 3:13 PM, L N <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Afraid to commit to booting native Plan-9 until I'm sure I can get openbox, >> firefox, and chromium-browser working on it. > > ah, now I see :-) > http://www.clipartguide.com/_named_clipart_images/0511-0701-3117-1335_Skeleton_Behind_a_Business_Desk_clipart_image.jpg > > ron Nice pic. If I squint I can even see the remains of my soul being sucked out just above the cobwebs like they were on a prior job. -jas ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 23:27 ` Jeff Sickel @ 2011-09-14 23:55 ` Rob Pike 0 siblings, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: Rob Pike @ 2011-09-14 23:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs this is still my favorite: http://gi52.photobucket.com/groups/g5/6DUVRHDUAT/typing.gif -rob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 21:55 ` s s 2011-09-14 21:57 ` John Floren @ 2011-09-14 22:27 ` hiro 1 sibling, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: hiro @ 2011-09-14 22:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs I want my monitor's brightness and color temperature to suit my ambient light. I'm used to black text on white paper and I don't want to see white squares behind black monitors. Perhaps the only reason I bother is because I'm sitting in front of pcs too long. On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 23:55, s s <leonardnemoi@gmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:50 PM, hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote: >> >> Or use xpdf -rv >> Although I use it for exactly the opposite purpose. > > How come no one likes high-contrast-inverse themes? > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Nemo book 2011-09-14 21:50 ` hiro 2011-09-14 21:55 ` s s @ 2011-09-14 21:58 ` s s 1 sibling, 0 replies; 60+ messages in thread From: s s @ 2011-09-14 21:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 213 bytes --] On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:50 PM, hiro <23hiro@googlemail.com> wrote: > Or use xpdf -rv > Although I use it for exactly the opposite purpose. > Somehow, plain text is much more enjoyable to read than pdf. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 489 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 60+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2011-09-20 10:07 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 60+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2011-09-14 21:43 [9fans] Nemo book s s 2011-09-14 21:46 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2011-09-14 21:46 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2011-09-14 21:48 ` s s 2011-09-14 21:52 ` s s 2011-09-14 21:50 ` hiro 2011-09-14 21:55 ` s s 2011-09-14 21:57 ` John Floren 2011-09-14 22:13 ` L N 2011-09-14 22:17 ` ron minnich 2011-09-14 22:41 ` L N 2011-09-14 22:54 ` John Floren 2011-09-14 23:14 ` Francisco J Ballesteros 2011-09-14 23:19 ` L N 2011-09-14 23:30 ` hiro 2011-09-14 23:33 ` ron minnich 2011-09-14 23:43 ` Akshat Kumar 2011-09-14 23:45 ` hiro 2011-09-15 0:39 ` L N 2011-09-14 23:32 ` ron minnich 2011-09-14 23:43 ` Nick LaForge 2011-09-15 9:40 ` dexen deVries 2011-09-16 0:02 ` Ethan Grammatikidis 2011-09-16 0:15 ` ron minnich 2011-09-16 0:31 ` [9fans] my kingdom for a web browser :-P Lyndon Nerenberg 2011-09-16 0:41 ` ron minnich 2011-09-16 0:53 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 2011-09-16 1:21 ` erik quanstrom 2011-09-16 2:13 ` Bruce Ellis 2011-09-16 2:46 ` Lyndon Nerenberg 2011-09-16 3:58 ` Bruce Ellis 2011-09-16 14:52 ` Ethan Grammatikidis 2011-09-16 5:53 ` Anthony Sorace 2011-09-16 10:11 ` Aram Hăvărneanu 2011-09-16 14:56 ` Ethan Grammatikidis 2011-09-16 15:17 ` tlaronde 2011-09-16 17:36 ` Bruce Ellis 2011-09-18 5:39 ` stephano zanzin 2011-09-16 11:28 ` Steve Simon 2011-09-16 14:43 ` Ethan Grammatikidis 2011-09-16 3:46 ` [9fans] Nemo book Jens Staal 2011-09-16 9:07 ` yy 2011-09-19 15:43 ` ron minnich 2011-09-19 16:37 ` Jens Staal 2011-09-19 17:50 ` Charles Forsyth 2011-09-19 18:10 ` tlaronde 2011-09-19 18:21 ` erik quanstrom 2011-09-19 20:32 ` Richard Miller 2011-09-20 3:20 ` Jens Staal 2011-09-20 10:07 ` Richard Miller 2011-09-16 11:15 ` Steve Simon [not found] ` <CAP6exYK+8TbaceUcfTAnuWruxahHvMmSgqGHKpH7jcZME=C5ww@mail.gmail.c> 2011-09-16 0:18 ` erik quanstrom 2011-09-16 4:52 ` L N 2011-09-16 7:21 ` David du Colombier 2011-09-16 7:28 ` cinap_lenrek 2011-09-16 8:33 ` Richard Miller 2011-09-14 23:27 ` Jeff Sickel 2011-09-14 23:55 ` Rob Pike 2011-09-14 22:27 ` hiro 2011-09-14 21:58 ` s s
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