Re: [9fans] Russian keyboard

Re: [9fans] Russian keyboard

[Fco.J.Ballesteros]

> One more thing is missing: you cannot create a new kbmap on the
> fly, only modify an existing one.  That should not be hard to
> fix, though.

What's the problem with that?
You can modify one of the maps that you're not going to use.

Re: [9fans] Russian keyboard

[George Bronnikov]

On Thu, 26 Sep 2002, Fco.J.Ballesteros wrote:

> > One more thing is missing: you cannot create a new kbmap on
> the
> > fly, only modify an existing one.  That should not be hard
> to
> > fix, though.
>
> What's the problem with that?
> You can modify one of the maps that you're not going to use.

Sure.  But the (purely hypothetical) scenario I have in mind is
when I find myself in a foreign environment (say on a campus in a
US university) where the precompiled kernel has no support for
alternative keyboards at all (why would it?).

I propose that the default kernel contain either several
(2-3) instances of us kbmap (so that one could tamper with the
second or third), or (better, IMHO) one us kbmap and a way to add
more.  Of course, to cover your case, one could compile several
different kbmaps into the kernel.

	Goga

Re: [9fans] Russian keyboard

[Jack Johnson]

George Bronnikov wrote:
> I propose that the default kernel contain either several
> (2-3) instances of us kbmap (so that one could tamper with the
> second or third), or (better, IMHO) one us kbmap and a way to add
> more.  Of course, to cover your case, one could compile several
> different kbmaps into the kernel.

Would it be ugly-but-adequate to just have two, a default and an (easily
alterable) alternate?

-Jack

Re: [9fans] Russian keyboard

[andrey mirtchovski]

On Thu, 26 Sep 2002, Jack Johnson wrote:

> Would it be ugly-but-adequate to just have two, a default and an (easily
> alterable) alternate?
>


there are people who routinely use more than two languages in their
day-to-day operations. instead, if we make the default
easily alterable and have some mechanism to, say, 'cat mymap > /dev/kbmap'
then switching between any number of non-default keyboards and keyboard
bindings would be trivial.

i believe someone was writing a modification to /dev/kbmap to that effect.

not sure if there are any results though.

andrey

Re: [9fans] Russian keyboard

[Boyd Roberts]

andrey mirtchovski wrote:

>... and have some mechanism to, say, 'cat mymap > /dev/kbmap'
>then switching between any number of non-default keyboard and keyboard
>bindings would be trivial.
>
>i believe someone was writing a modification to /dev/kbmap to that effect.
>
The stuff that Charles Forsyth did and I modified did exactly that.  I
always thought that compiled in maps were were ugly and just added
unnecessary bloat as most of the time all those tables wouldn't be used.

Re: [9fans] Russian keyboard

[Jim Choate]

Zao,

Ni hao ma? Wo hen hao.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2002, andrey mirtchovski wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Sep 2002, Jack Johnson wrote:
>
> > Would it be ugly-but-adequate to just have two, a default and an (easily
> > alterable) alternate?
> >
>
>
> there are people who routinely use more than two languages in their
> day-to-day operations.

Wo yong qi ge yuyan.

Da svidanya, mi amigo.

ps Just in case anyone is interested...[note the one edit from the
   earlier version I sent out, I'll update that version soonest.]


        Hangar 18 - Goodwill Linux Group Cluster Project #1
                           Sept. 29, 2002


Author:

Hangar 18
James F. Choate Jr.
jchoate@open-forge.org
ravage@ssz.com
512-451-7087


Precis:

The purpose of this document is to describe the current state of
discussion between Hangar 18 and the Goodwill Linux Group. It's
purpose is to bring together the various parties involved around
a commen set of goals and process. The hope is that we can take
the current known resources and have a working facility by the
end of 2002.

This is a document 'in process'. It is revised and distributed
by the senior membership of Hangar 18 at this time. We are
actively looking for others to participate and flesh out this
skeleton of a proposal. All active contributors can expect to
be included in the 'Author' section.


Purpose:

To build a public access tit-for-tat cluster facility. The facility would
consist of multiple machines which ran Plan 9, Inferno, Linux, etc. in a
heterogeneous clustering environment. Commercial use of this facility is
not covered in this document, but it is not in principle excluded.

Once this facility was up and operating it would act as a central contact
point to bring other participants and their resources into play to expand
the abilities of the facility. Ideally this means that we would have
clusters connecting globally through the use of both clear text and
cryptographically secure virtual private networks.

In addition to clustering it would be involved in the expansion of
wireless network technology. In general this would be guerrilla or
neighborhood access points.


Location:

The location would need to be able to support approximately 20 machines.
At 110VAC @ 5A this implies a total load of 1kW [Oops, make that about
10kW]. The location would also need to be able to seat at least 10 people
in addition to the space taken by the cluster machines and management
workstations. The implication is that the space required would be approx.
equivalent to 20ft. by 20ft. Access would need to be controlled 24/365. It
would also need to have a small space setup for construction and repair of
the machines. Exact layout and source for these resources is not covered
here. It is assumed that the majority of the material and effort would
be donated gratis from the community.


Infrastructure:

A reasonable infrastructure would imply a Internet connection of at least
256kb/s up to T1 speeds or greater. The higher the better since at least
one proposed application is parallel rendering.

The current proposed split of machines is:

4ea	Plan 9 process servers
1ea	Plan 9 file system server
4ea	Linux machines (exact cluster architecture not defined)
2ea	Management workstation
4ea	General workstations for training purposes
5ea	Undefined usage per the location requirement above

The exact configuration and product load of these machines is not specified
in this document.


Support:

The majority of the support and maintenance would be provided by the
Hangar 18 and Goodwill Linux group members. Non-member participant would be
acceptable. For this to be a workable facility responce would need to be
-near- commercial levels. This means at least 24hr (ie next day) responce
on issues and problems. It is proposed that this aspect be taken care of by
the facility provider and senior Hangar 18 members. Others are welcome to
volunteer on a skills and need basis.



 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

    We don't see things as they are,                      ravage@ssz.com
    we see them as we are.                                   www.ssz.com
                                                  jchoate@open-forge.org
    Anais Nin                                         www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] Russian keyboard

[Dan Cross]

> ps Just in case anyone is interested...[note the one edit from the
>    earlier version I sent out, I'll update that version soonest.]

I don't think that anyone *is* interested.  However, I for one would be
interested in you *not* sending such things to 9fans anymore; they're
off topic.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] Russian keyboard

[Jim Choate]

On Sun, 29 Sep 2002, Dan Cross wrote:

> > ps Just in case anyone is interested...[note the one edit from the
> >    earlier version I sent out, I'll update that version soonest.]
>
> I don't think that anyone *is* interested.  However, I for one would be
> interested in you *not* sending such things to 9fans anymore; they're
> off topic.

So you think using Plan 9 in real world clustering is off topic?
Interesting viewpoint.

Just another example of why you guys are lost in the ozone.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

    We don't see things as they are,                      ravage@ssz.com
    we see them as we are.                                   www.ssz.com
                                                  jchoate@open-forge.org
    Anais Nin                                         www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] Russian keyboard

[Dan Cross]

> So you think using Plan 9 in real world clustering is off topic?

No, I just think that advertising is best done somewhere else.

> Interesting viewpoint.

Interpret it as you like.

> Just another example of why you guys are lost in the ozone.

Aren't you the guy who usually flies off the handle?

Funny how your ``clustering'' post came in a thread about keyboard
drivers, which you added nothing to.  I'm done posting about it.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] Russian keyboard

[Jim Choate]

On Sun, 29 Sep 2002, Dan Cross wrote:

> > So you think using Plan 9 in real world clustering is off topic?
>
> No, I just think that advertising is best done somewhere else.

Your welcome to your opinion.

The best place to advertise Plan 9 projects is where Plan 9 users
congregate.

What's wrong, afraid of a little competition?


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

    We don't see things as they are,                      ravage@ssz.com
    we see them as we are.                                   www.ssz.com
                                                  jchoate@open-forge.org
    Anais Nin                                         www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] Russian keyboard

[William Josephson]

On Sun, Sep 29, 2002 at 11:15:22PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Sep 2002, Dan Cross wrote:
> > > So you think using Plan 9 in real world clustering is off topic?
> >
> > No, I just think that advertising is best done somewhere else.
>
> Your welcome to your opinion.
>
> The best place to advertise Plan 9 projects is where Plan 9 users
> congregate.

Take a look at RFC 1855; in particular the last point
at the bottom of page three.

> What's wrong, afraid of a little competition?

No, just tired of people with no tact.

Re: [9fans] Russian keyboard

[Jim Choate]

On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, William Josephson wrote:

> > What's wrong, afraid of a little competition?
>
> No, just tired of people with no tact.

Agreed.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

    We don't see things as they are,                      ravage@ssz.com
    we see them as we are.                                   www.ssz.com
                                                  jchoate@open-forge.org
    Anais Nin                                         www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] Russian keyboard

[William Josephson]

On Sun, Sep 29, 2002 at 11:34:32PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, William Josephson wrote:
> > > What's wrong, afraid of a little competition?
> >
> > No, just tired of people with no tact.
>
> Agreed.

Then why are you always the focal point
of flame wars here?

Re: [9fans] Russian keyboard

[Jim Choate]

On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, William Josephson wrote:

> Then why are you always the focal point
> of flame wars here?

There is a significant difference of opinion about Plan 9 and what it
represent. A considerable number of the Plan 9 community haven't even
twigged to this simple fact, yet.

The only 'flame war' is from you folks. I haven't called -anyone-
anything. I -have- expressed my view on quite a few ideas and suggestions
that have been made. I will continue to do so. I also am a user of this
OS and have a right to express my views. As a developer or distributor you
have a responsibility to listen. If you don't, then expect the market to
move around or over you. There are after all only three choices in -any-
situation. Once the choice is made, the only remaining question is 'How'.

If that upsets you, that says more about you than me.

The fact is there is a contingent of Plan 9 users who want to  expand the
OS and include other OS'es into the mix (want tactless, go back and look
at some of the responces I received when I asked about creating a process
client for Linux or Windows). They believe that it has the potential for
significant social impact across the globe. This is against the wishes of
quite a few on this list, who would rather see it remain their personal
play thing. We sincerely wish that we could get help from these other users,
but -they- are the ones who are failing to compromise in their desires.
They fail to see, and accept, that Plan 9 has flown the coop and it no
longer is in their 'control' (not that it ever really was mind you). They
fail to see the fundamental point to the whole idea of Open Source
technology. The street has its own uses for technology (to borrow from
Gibson). That in fact within 4-5 years it has the potential to
significantly change the landscape, not only in computers but society writ
large. Hangar 18 and Plan 9 represent an opportunity to short circuit a
significant amount of work by large corporations which will deny
individuals their right to manage their own lives (Lucent being one of
them, if it survives it's current troubles).

-That- is truly a lack of tact (and imagination) on their part.

I am faced with two choices. Comply and fail in my goals, or pursue my
goals and deal with the conflict. I choose the latter (see three choices
above).

I have the same problem with Linux users. I've been thrown out of one of
the Linux user groups in Austin because I dared to talk against the
'OS Religous' wars. Bigots abound (most people are, and never know it,
which is probably why they are bigots - see Decarte about questioning
things and having an open mind). I simply wanted to create a SIG that
was focused on computer applications and technology rather than a single
OS. Did I stop? No, I went to another user group (which is why Austin has
four Linux user groups). What happened? We made progress and the Plan 9
community (and Linux, and MS, and etc.) at large will soon reap the
benefits of those efforts (and tenacity). Am I asking you to do it my
way? No, in fact I am building a system that will prevent any one party
from being able to control or dictate the process (ie tit-for-tat). Are
we excluding anyone from participating? No. Are we limiting it to a
single OS? No. The -only- thing we -are- saying is you (3rd person again)
can't tell -us- how to do it either.

Now who is being hard headed and confrontational here?

To you (3rd person unless the shoe fits) it's an ego trip, to  others of
us it's a way of life. We see the transfer of technology to the individual
(as opposed to corporate or government managers) as the -only- way out of
the worlds problems. God Money Fascists will sell your soul for their
profit (see Jefferson comment about British selling bails of hay and
civil rights).

Let your dreams die hard.

As to me being rude to you (3rd person, English sucks!), I guarantee that
it was in responce to -you- being rude or inconsiderate to me first (even
if you don't think so, which is the whole point of manners. I'll leave
the elucidation of that point as an exercise). I never start a fight, I'll
damn well finish it if I have to. I'd rather not have to. I -always- start
out with 'Excuse me', 'Please', 'If you wouldn't mind'. I also -always-
give the other party the option of saying 'No'. And when they do, I drop
it. I'll continue that until I am abused (on my terms, same as you decide
when you are abused on -your- terms). At that point my usual responce is to
go around. I don't have that option here. So, we bash heads.

Ta ta.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

    We don't see things as they are,                      ravage@ssz.com
    we see them as we are.                                   www.ssz.com
                                                  jchoate@open-forge.org
    Anais Nin                                         www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] Russian keyboard

[Tomas]

On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 at 12:41am, Jim Choate wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, William Josephson wrote:
>
> > Then why are you always the focal point of flame wars here?
>
> There is a significant difference of opinion about Plan 9 and
> what it represent. A considerable number of the Plan 9
> community haven't even twigged to this simple fact, yet.
>
> The only 'flame war' is from you folks. I haven't called
> -anyone- anything.

Wow. Just how short is your memory?

Writing "the head-up-the-ass attitude of Lucent and their
licenses", "Just another example of why you guys are lost in the
ozone", "You're clearly too complacent from getting your own way
all the time", and quoting "Never ascribe to malice what can be
better explained by incompetence or ignorance" are examples from
the past three days when you've been calling people all sorts of
things, explicitly or implicitly.

And as for you accusing people on this list for not getting their
facts straight, I refer you to Russ' response to your ridiculous
"I -do- take -great- exception to the attitude of these same
people that Plan 9 should be limited to 'research' applications"
statement.

[snip]

> I never start a fight, I'll damn well finish it if I have to.
> I'd rather not have to. I -always- start out with 'Excuse me',
> 'Please', 'If you wouldn't mind'.

You didn't when this whole argument started. Go back and check
the archives if you can't remeber that far back in time.

/Tomas

(Gonk, I'm sorry my first post to this list in almost a year had
to be on a subject such as this.)

[9fans] why can't we all just get along?

[Sam]

Good Lord, man.  Would you do everyone a favour and set up a
mailing list at hangar18 so you can continue your diatribe
to whatever audience cares to listen?  I imagine most people
are like myself and on this list for the technical discussions
and not to listen to some self righteous, negative nancy who
thinks his broken grammar ridden rants are in any way
appreciated.

If you can't play nice, pick up your ball and go home.

Cheers,

Sam

On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Jim Choate wrote:

>
> On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Tomas wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 at 12:41am, Jim Choate wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, William Josephson wrote:
> > >
> > > > Then why are you always the focal point of flame wars here?
> > >
> > > There is a significant difference of opinion about Plan 9 and
> > > what it represent. A considerable number of the Plan 9
> > > community haven't even twigged to this simple fact, yet.
> > >
> > > The only 'flame war' is from you folks. I haven't called
> > > -anyone- anything.
> >
> > Wow. Just how short is your memory?
>
> Those are my opinions. If you want to argue about them that is
> -you- not me. Further, They clearly don't qualify as 'flame war' since
> they are direct at -no individual-. Now, if they are not directed at any
> individual exactly what has your dander up? What are you mad about, that
> somebody is upset with Lucent and says it?
>
> Again, that says more about -you- than me.
>
> Lucent -has- been the primary factor in holding Plan 9 back for
> at least 10 years now. Do I recognize the fact that this will continue?
> Yes. Do I think that treating Lucent 'nicely' by praising them will help?
> No.
>
> Just look at the recent ver. 4 license fiasco for a recent example.
> Desp[ite claims from the contrary that still isn't settled (mark my words).
>
> Trying to sugar coat that in euphamism or allegory will do -nobody- any
> good. Never has, never will.
>
>
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>
>     We don't see things as they are,                      ravage@ssz.com
>     we see them as we are.                                   www.ssz.com
>                                                   jchoate@open-forge.org
>     Anais Nin                                         www.open-forge.org
>
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Re: [9fans] Russian keyboard

[Jim Choate]

On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Tomas wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 at 12:41am, Jim Choate wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, William Josephson wrote:
> >
> > > Then why are you always the focal point of flame wars here?
> >
> > There is a significant difference of opinion about Plan 9 and
> > what it represent. A considerable number of the Plan 9
> > community haven't even twigged to this simple fact, yet.
> >
> > The only 'flame war' is from you folks. I haven't called
> > -anyone- anything.
>
> Wow. Just how short is your memory?

Those are my opinions. If you want to argue about them that is
-you- not me. Further, They clearly don't qualify as 'flame war' since
they are direct at -no individual-. Now, if they are not directed at any
individual exactly what has your dander up? What are you mad about, that
somebody is upset with Lucent and says it?

Again, that says more about -you- than me.

Lucent -has- been the primary factor in holding Plan 9 back for
at least 10 years now. Do I recognize the fact that this will continue?
Yes. Do I think that treating Lucent 'nicely' by praising them will help?
No.

Just look at the recent ver. 4 license fiasco for a recent example.
Desp[ite claims from the contrary that still isn't settled (mark my words).

Trying to sugar coat that in euphamism or allegory will do -nobody- any
good. Never has, never will.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

    We don't see things as they are,                      ravage@ssz.com
    we see them as we are.                                   www.ssz.com
                                                  jchoate@open-forge.org
    Anais Nin                                         www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------