[9fans] hangar 18

[9fans] hangar 18

[Russ Cox]

> So you think using Plan 9 in real world clustering is off topic?
> Interesting viewpoint.

While it's not off-topic for the list in general,
it's certainly off-topic in a thread titled "Russian keyboard".

> Just another example of why you guys are lost in the ozone.

I suspect the real thing Dan was complaining about was your
attitude.

You clearly have something against some people on this list
or against the list itself.  The only time you ever post is
to tell people that 9fans sucks and we should all be reading
the Hangar 18 or Open Forge discussion lists instead.  Why
are you so angry with us?  What did we do?

It seems like you've been quite successful at promoting
your user group and Plan 9 in general.  Why must 9fans be
at odds with this?

Even if we agree with your belief that "Lucent would -not-
be a good 'parent'" for Plan 9, what does shunning 9fans
accomplish?  Lucent doesn't have anything to do with it.
Look at the domain name.  It's just a mailing list.

It seems like you're hell-bent on splitting off your own
separate Plan 9 community, and I just don't understand that.
The myriad different sects are one of the worst things
about Unix.  Why bring it to Plan 9?

I think it's great that you're so enthusiastic about
using and promoting Plan 9, and the projects you've got
on your Hangar 18 and Open Forge web pages look really
interesting.  Why are you so sure that promoting those
efforts requires being so condescending towards others?

Russ

Re: [9fans] hangar 18

[Jim Choate]

On Sun, 29 Sep 2002, Russ Cox wrote:

> > So you think using Plan 9 in real world clustering is off topic?
> > Interesting viewpoint.
>
> While it's not off-topic for the list in general,
> it's certainly off-topic in a thread titled "Russian keyboard".

Good god amighty.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

    We don't see things as they are,                      ravage@ssz.com
    we see them as we are.                                   www.ssz.com
                                                  jchoate@open-forge.org
    Anais Nin                                         www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] hangar 18

[Jim Choate]

On Sun, 29 Sep 2002, Russ Cox wrote:

> You clearly have something against some people on this list
> or against the list itself.  The only time you ever post is
> to tell people that 9fans sucks

Wrong. I have -never- said anything about 9fans. Most certainly that it
ever sucked. I have zero problem with 9fans. I've -never- deprecated Plan
9 or it's users. Hell, I've been a staunch supporter of the OS since the
mid 80's. What I -do- take exception with is some of the holier than
though attitudes of -particular- individuals, the head-up-the-ass
attitude of Lucent and their licenses. There is a reason that I have
lab machines named 'pike', 'kernighan', 'ritchie', etc. However, I -do-
take -great- exception to the attitude of these same people that Plan 9
should be limited to 'research' applications. Simply because they had
-a- few good ideas doesn't mean they are always right, or that anyone
should necessarily do what they suggest.

What I -have- done is take exception to some of -your- (that's 3rd person
just to clarify the point, not that it will keep you from getting your
dander up) attitudes. I will continue to voice those concerns. If that
upsets you, good. You're clearly too complacent from getting your own way
all the time.

If you're going to throw rocks, it helps to learn to catch 'em.

Get your facts straight.

As to how often I post, I post when it's relevant to -my- interest. Just
like you (1st person) do.

Ta ta.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

    We don't see things as they are,                      ravage@ssz.com
    we see them as we are.                                   www.ssz.com
                                                  jchoate@open-forge.org
    Anais Nin                                         www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] hangar 18

[Fco.J.Ballesteros]

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Pssssss. Don't let them now.
They could discover those sources under /sys/src by
Dr. Parsons.

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From: "Russ Cox" <rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] hangar 18
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 01:47:45 -0400
Message-ID: <caa449e885abbfeebccf4fcf3395ccfe@plan9.bell-labs.com>

You know what, I give up.  It's not worth hiding the truth anymore.

You've correctly guessed our secret plans to drive Plan 9 into
the ground with a combination of more restrictive licenses,
less frequent publication of updates, and more hostile attitudes
toward new users.  We'd be progressing on all those fronts, too,
if weren't for your infrequent but surprisingly effective rants.

Just you wait.  You may have won this battle, but we'll win the
war, and there's nothing you can do to stop us!  Mua ha ha ha ha!

Russ

Re: [9fans] hangar 18

[Jim Choate]

On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Russ Cox wrote:

> You know what, I give up.  It's not worth hiding the truth anymore.
>
> You've correctly guessed our secret plans to drive Plan 9 into
> the ground with a combination of more restrictive licenses,
> less frequent publication of updates, and more hostile attitudes
> toward new users.  We'd be progressing on all those fronts, too,
> if weren't for your infrequent but surprisingly effective rants.
>
> Just you wait.  You may have won this battle, but we'll win the
> war, and there's nothing you can do to stop us!  Mua ha ha ha ha!

Don't remember who said it first but....

Never ascribe to malice what can be better explained by incompetence
or ignorance.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

    We don't see things as they are,                      ravage@ssz.com
    we see them as we are.                                   www.ssz.com
                                                  jchoate@open-forge.org
    Anais Nin                                         www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] hangar 18

[Russ Cox]

You know what, I give up.  It's not worth hiding the truth anymore.

You've correctly guessed our secret plans to drive Plan 9 into
the ground with a combination of more restrictive licenses,
less frequent publication of updates, and more hostile attitudes
toward new users.  We'd be progressing on all those fronts, too,
if weren't for your infrequent but surprisingly effective rants.

Just you wait.  You may have won this battle, but we'll win the
war, and there's nothing you can do to stop us!  Mua ha ha ha ha!

Russ

Re: [9fans] hangar 18

[Jim Choate]

On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Russ Cox wrote:

> No one is 100% happy with the licenses.  But you have to admit that
> we've come a long way since $350 in 1995.

And I have on -many- occassions.

It's interesting that you don't seem able to recognize that fact or grant
credit for it...

Have a nice night. This discussion is boring and I have better things to
do with my time.

Adios.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

    We don't see things as they are,                      ravage@ssz.com
    we see them as we are.                                   www.ssz.com
                                                  jchoate@open-forge.org
    Anais Nin                                         www.open-forge.org

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] hangar 18

[Russ Cox]

> What I -do- take exception with is some of the holier than
> though attitudes of -particular- individuals, the head-up-the-ass
> attitude of Lucent and their licenses. There is a reason that I have

No one is 100% happy with the licenses.  But you have to admit that
we've come a long way since $350 in 1995.  Lucent is a big company
with more important things to worry about, and Plan 9 is a small effort
by an ever-dwindling team of people, all of whom are making that effort
in their spare time, on top of whatever it is they get paid to do.
No one is getting paid to work on Plan 9 anymore.

> lab machines named 'pike', 'kernighan', 'ritchie', etc. However, I -do-
> take -great- exception to the attitude of these same people that Plan 9
> should be limited to 'research' applications.

Wrong.  No one has said that Plan 9 should be limited to research
applications.  If you want to make a commercial product out of Plan 9,
that would be just great.  Please do.  However, doing so would be a lot
of effort, and what people -have- said is that they're not interested in
making that effort themselves.  If others want to make the effort, great!
In fact, there are some commercial uses of Plan 9 out there.  If you
want to start the Red Hat of Plan 9, go do it.  I'd love to see that
happen.

> > This is exactly my point.  Why is it competition?
>
> If it isn't then why are you complaining instead of helping?

I have a finite amount of spare time to spend on Plan 9, and
I'm already spending more 100% of that time on it.  I work on
the projects I think are worthwhile, just as you do.  Your web page
says you're interested in replacing the DES authentication.  Now that
factotum is out there, that would be easy.  You could say that I (along
with a few other people that you don't like) got you most of the
way there.  I'm complaining because it bothers me to see you assume
untruths about people based on your own speculation.

> You're clearly too complacent from getting your own way all the time.

If I got my own way all the time, there would be a dropdown box on the
Plan 9 download page where you could choose the license you wanted to
apply to your use of Plan 9, or enter your own.  If I got my own way
all the time, there would be large teams of people getting paid to
write drivers, so I would never have to write another.  If I got my own
way all the time, Plan 9 would interoperate seamlessly with every
file system format and network protocol on the planet.

Don't confuse the way things are with the way anyone would like
them to be.  Don't assume that because someone isn't screaming at the
top of his lungs, he's content with the way things are.

Being confrontational and obnoxious doesn't make Plan 9 any better.
Let's get back to behavior that does.

Russ