[9fans] The 9grid.

[9fans] The 9grid.

[ron minnich]

We don't have a Grid yet, but we do have a web page; what more do you
need?

see www.9grid.net. We're going to try to build this thing up starting
pretty much now.

ron

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[matt]

ron minnich wrote:

>We don't have a Grid yet, but we do have a web page; what more do you
>need?
>
a $10,000 logo

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[boyd, rounin]

> a $10,000 logo

i heard the lucent 'wine stain' cost $1M ...

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[ron minnich]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, matt wrote:

> a $10,000 logo

is that all? Let me check my wallet ... nope, we're going to have to go
with our usual cheap crappy logos.

Too bad!

ron

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[Chris Hollis-Locke]

What's your interpretation of "grid"?
There appear to be many to choose from.

It sounds like a computation grid.
If so some immediate Qs come up:

Do you have to compile your app for all possible CPU types?
Are jobs submitted to a central dispatcher?
If not, how do I find out the cpu resources available?
What sort of load balancing exists?
Does data get cached close to the computation nodes or do I as a
lowly underpowered bandwidth challenged client have to distribute
it to each of them?

Chris.

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[David Presotto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 48 bytes --]

How about a picture of the Northeast power grid?

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2540 bytes --]

From: ron minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] The 9grid.
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:06:40 -0600 (MDT)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0308151506100.6506-100000@maxroach.lanl.gov>

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, matt wrote:

> a $10,000 logo

is that all? Let me check my wallet ... nope, we're going to have to go
with our usual cheap crappy logos.

Too bad!

ron

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[matt]

boyd, rounin wrote:

>>a $10,000 logo
>>
>>
>
>i heard the lucent 'wine stain' cost $1M ...
>

perhaps it was drawn by Ali Al-Johani


http://theregister.co.uk/content/5/32304.html

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[andrey mirtchovski]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Chris Hollis-Locke wrote:

> What's your interpretation of "grid"?
> There appear to be many to choose from.

nobody can be told what 'the grid' is :)

9grid's main purpose will be to say 'ha! you see that? what you did with
globus 5 years (and several tens of megabytes of code) ago could be
done with Plan 9 in a couple of weeks and/or a few beers'.

9grid is the red pill for distributed computing.

i'm kidding, of course :)

the GRID definition that i like most is 'distributed computing across
administration domains' -- i learned that during my involvement with
WestGrid (www.westgrid.ca) -- and this is what 9grid may end up being. if
we're lucky, it may end up as the posterchild for future grids and in a
couple of years everybody and their aunt will be running Plan 9 on their
nodes :)

andrey

ps: 'we' means 'plan 9 enthusiasts', so all of you reading this are included
:)

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[boyd, rounin]

the alstrom 'wine stain' is quite similar.

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[boyd, rounin]

this is turning into 'the matrix'.

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[Jack Johnson]

ron minnich wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, matt wrote:
>>a $10,000 logo
> is that all? Let me check my wallet ... nope, we're going to have to go
> with our usual cheap crappy logos.

Did you try a big, crappy hash over Glenda's image?

Maybe Glenda cut up into a little jigsaw puzzle?

(Not that I don't love Glenda, I'm just brainstorming crappy logos)

Ooooh, better yet, replicate the logo from the movie 12 Monkeys:

	http://www.kinoweb.de/filme/TwelveMonkeys/icons/logo200.gif

except with little Glendas and a big, fat 9.

-Jack

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[ron minnich]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Chris Hollis-Locke wrote:

> What's your interpretation of "grid"?
> There appear to be many to choose from.

What we called 'distributed computing' in the 70s. Nothing important has
changed:
- Unix is still lousy for this type of thing
- people still try to add on things to make it better
- those things don't work
- this cycle repeats about every 5 years
  so you have to rename the ideas every 5 years

> Do you have to compile your app for all possible CPU types?
only if you want to use all possible cpu types

> Are jobs submitted to a central dispatcher?
No, I hate those. It seems a central anything is counter to the idea of
Plan 9 anyway.

> If not, how do I find out the cpu resources available?

beats me


> What sort of load balancing exists?

none

> Does data get cached close to the computation nodes or do I as a
> lowly underpowered bandwidth challenged client have to distribute
> it to each of them?

well, I'll let Andrey take that one.

ron
p.s. there is a 9grid mailling list, so if people get sick of this
discussion on 9fans, just tell us and we'll take it outside.

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[Chris Hollis-Locke]

>the GRID definition that i like most is 'distributed computing across
>administration domains'

Ok, the various nodes of 9grid will come under different admin domains
but isn't there a single overarching domain - that for authentication, and
who is responsible for it?

Also, I think you're wimping out by not using NAT and firewalls wherever
possible! :)

Chris.

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[ron minnich]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, David Presotto wrote:
> How about a picture of the Northeast power grid?

damn, it only needs one color! Good one!

ron

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[ron minnich]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Jack Johnson wrote:

> except with little Glendas and a big, fat 9.

so far, this one and the northeast power grid are tied for first place.

I almost did Glenda with the chainsaw, cutting up Globus, but decided
we've already done enough gratuitous pissing off of people for a while.

ron

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[Chris Hollis-Locke]

>ron
>p.s. there is a 9grid mailling list, so if people get sick of this
>discussion on 9fans, just tell us and we'll take it outside.

Where's the list? Couldn't spot it on the web site, mind you I didn't
look very hard.

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[ron minnich]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Chris Hollis-Locke wrote:

> Ok, the various nodes of 9grid will come under different admin domains
> but isn't there a single overarching domain - that for authentication, and
> who is responsible for it?

there should not be one.

> Also, I think you're wimping out by not using NAT and firewalls wherever
> possible! :)

??

ron

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[ron minnich]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Chris Hollis-Locke wrote:

> Where's the list? Couldn't spot it on the web site, mind you I didn't
> look very hard.
http://www.9grid.net/contact/index.html

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[andrey mirtchovski]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Chris Hollis-Locke wrote:

> Ok, the various nodes of 9grid will come under different admin domains
> but isn't there a single overarching domain - that for authentication, and
> who is responsible for it?
>

the way we see it now, there will be a single authentication server
(resembling Globus' certificates, i.e. you trust the authentication server
as you trust the certificate authority). by separate administrative domains
i mean that the machines here at UofC will be administered by people at the
UofC with regards to software, hardware and will still have our own
authentication domain for our own stuff. there's no root and we will not
give the hostowner password to anyone else :)

at any rate, Plan 9 is able to accomodate much wider range of authentication
mechanisms than globus, so don't be surprised if there isn't a centralised
authentication domain at all.

i'm sorry if it doesn't make much sense, but using paradigms from other
types of grids just messes it up -- it's much easier to think of it in plan9
terms:

there will be a few cpu servers across the world on which your jobs can
run if you're a 9grid user. that's all :)

as far as job submission, ron could be opposed to it, but running a
'centralized' cpu server, to which one's jobs go, is a good idea if you're
limited to a cluster. probably in 9grid we'll have a script which mounts all
available nodes' /proc and tells you which one is most idle, isn't that the
Plan 9 way? process migration hasn't arrived in Plan 9 (yet) but when it
does it probably wouldn't be too hard to accomodate (at least we know it'll
be simple).


caching and resource discovery are on the table, but i'm not sure i can talk
about that right now... ('ls' sounds much simpler than 'LDAP' though, doesn't
it? :)

andrey

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[ron minnich]

If you haven't figured it out by now, no, we don't know what the heck
we're doing.

But we know that getting from not knowing what the heck we're doing to
having some idea what the heck we are doing is much easier on Plan 9. This
thing is going to take shape over the next while, at which point we may
sound less clueless.

I'd like not to have a central anything, however.

Quick, somebody, show me the central scheduler for plane seats, or the
road in front of your house, or the water you just filled your glass with.
Scheduling happens all around us, but it does not imply central control,
or you would always hit a green light.

ron

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[Skip Tavakkolian]

> How about a picture of the Northeast power grid?

Good one; although probably more applicable to a .NET grid.
NOAA before and after satellite pictures should be inspiring.

How about this:  remember those child games where you connect
the dots to make a picture? the dots could be the outline of glenda.

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[Chris Hollis-Locke]

>('ls' sounds much simpler than 'LDAP' though, doesn't  it? :)

Indeed!  We also use echo and cat in the VN Inferno grid offering that I've
been working on.

See http://www.vitanuova.com/grid

the demos are set up using the inferno IE plugin at the mo, but all the
stuff is accessible directly from Inferno, the plugin just makes it a bit more
seamless for the sort of folks who only like to "click on something".

Also the machine that's on the internet doesn't have a DNS entry
(don't ask - just don't ask!) which causes a few problems.

Chris.

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[ron minnich]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Chris Hollis-Locke wrote:

> Indeed!  We also use echo and cat in the VN Inferno grid offering that I've
> been working on.

seems like we ought to work together on some of this, as long as it
doesn't hurt your business plan.

ron

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[Chris Hollis-Locke]

I would be delighted to discuss this stuff with others who are interested.
Don't mistake me for an expert though.  My eyes glaze over when I look
at all the grid related guff^H^H^H^Hdocumentation.
Maybe it's time to get some messages on that mailing list of yours.

Cheers,
Chris.

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[rob pike, esq.]

strange use of 'sui generis'

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[Wes Kussmaul]

> > a $10,000 logo
>
> i heard the lucent 'wine stain' cost $1M ...

Years ago NBC had to abandon a brand new logo that consisted of a stylized
capital N. They had just paid $750,000 for it when it was discovered that
Nebraska Public Television had adopted a virtually identical one months
earlier. That one had been done by a staffer in his spare time.

Wes Kussmaul

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[andrey mirtchovski]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, rob pike, esq. wrote:

> strange use of 'sui generis'
>

'one of its kind', in the sense that nobody else is doing it right ;)

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[nehal]

oh oh ron's been reading again (i thought
i saw your car at the library).. nothing
good can come from that...

nehal
>
> On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, rob pike, esq. wrote:
>
> > strange use of 'sui generis'
> >
>
> 'one of its kind', in the sense that nobody else is doing it right ;)
>
>

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[boyd, rounin]

> If you haven't figured it out by now, no, we don't know what the heck
> we're doing.

sounds like a plan.

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[boyd, rounin]

I move to dissolve the corporation
In a pool of margaritas

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[boyd, rounin]

> caching and resource discovery are on the table, but i'm not sure i can talk
> about that right now... ('ls' sounds much simpler than 'LDAP' though, doesn't
> it? :)

distributed caching is nasty.  SRC had a filesystem that tried to do that, but
it looked like it would fall into some combinatoric nightmare.

then there is the great story of the garbage collection one day on a full
V-something filesystem -- hysterical ...

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[ron minnich]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, rob pike, esq. wrote:

> strange use of 'sui generis'

damn, I need to fix that.

ron

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[ron minnich]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, andrey mirtchovski wrote:

> On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, rob pike, esq. wrote:
>
> > strange use of 'sui generis'
> >
>
> 'one of its kind', in the sense that nobody else is doing it right ;)


well, I thought that was what I meant, but I figured rob had uncovered my
techie illiteracy, so it's gone.

Andrey can always put it back.

ron
:-)

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[ron minnich]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 nehal@ccs.lanl.gov wrote:

> oh oh ron's been reading again (i thought
> i saw your car at the library).. nothing
> good can come from that...


no it's my daughter's latin classes.

ron

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[Rob Ristroph]

>>>>> "Chris" == Chris Hollis-Locke <chris@hollis-locke.com> writes:
Chris>
>> the GRID definition that i like most is 'distributed computing
>> across administration domains'
Chris>
Chris> Ok, the various nodes of 9grid will come under different admin
Chris> domains but isn't there a single overarching domain - that for
Chris> authentication, and who is responsible for it?

This is related to question I have.

I have two computers with Plan 9 installed on them, on an IP only
network that has no DNS.

If I want to set up one as an authentication / cpu server, and the
other as a disk server.  ( A third Plan 9 computer, or drawterm on
linux, will be used to acess them. )

Do I need to set up DNS just so I can specify the authdom variable in
the appropriate scripts ?  In other words, to run an authentication
server do I need to have a DNS server running somewhere ?

Or can I give authdom a list of IPs, or a subnet ?

--Rob

P.S.  I am currently trying to solve my problem by running a DNS
server on a linux machine, but that just turned into another problem,
i.e., why doesn't it work.

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[David Presotto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 834 bytes --]

If the two machines have fixed addresses there's no reason to use
dns at all.

You should have a /lib/ndb/local that lists the network with the
appropriate auth server and fs server.  For example:

ipnet=robsnet ip=199.199.9.0
	ipgw=199.199.9.1
	fs=199.199.9.2
	auth=199.199.9.3

Or you can use symbolic names instead of the ip addresses:

ipnet=robsnet ip=199.199.9.0
	ipgw=199.199.9.1
	fs=robsfs.rob.net
	auth=robsauth.rob.net

ip=199.99.9.2 dom=robsfs.rob.net
ip=199.99.9.3 dom=robsauth.rob.net

and if you want them to boot off of a plan9 dhcp/bootp/tftp server

ipnet=robsnet ip=199.199.9.0
	ipgw=199.199.9.1
	fs=robsfs.rob.net
	auth=robsauth.rob.net

ip=199.99.9.2 dom=robsfs.rob.net
	ether=123456789012
	bootf=/386/9pcfs
ip=199.99.9.3 dom=robsauth.rob.net
	ether=123456789013
	bootf=/386/9pccpu

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3224 bytes --]

From: rgr@sdf.lonestar.org (Rob Ristroph)
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] The 9grid.
Date: 16 Aug 2003 11:24:34 -0500
Message-ID: <87fzk1bmf1.fsf@rgristroph-austin.ath.cx>

>>>>> "Chris" == Chris Hollis-Locke <chris@hollis-locke.com> writes:
Chris>
>> the GRID definition that i like most is 'distributed computing
>> across administration domains'
Chris>
Chris> Ok, the various nodes of 9grid will come under different admin
Chris> domains but isn't there a single overarching domain - that for
Chris> authentication, and who is responsible for it?

This is related to question I have.

I have two computers with Plan 9 installed on them, on an IP only
network that has no DNS.

If I want to set up one as an authentication / cpu server, and the
other as a disk server.  ( A third Plan 9 computer, or drawterm on
linux, will be used to acess them. )

Do I need to set up DNS just so I can specify the authdom variable in
the appropriate scripts ?  In other words, to run an authentication
server do I need to have a DNS server running somewhere ?

Or can I give authdom a list of IPs, or a subnet ?

--Rob

P.S.  I am currently trying to solve my problem by running a DNS
server on a linux machine, but that just turned into another problem,
i.e., why doesn't it work.

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[andrey mirtchovski]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:

> Good one; although probably more applicable to a .NET grid.
> NOAA before and after satellite pictures should be inspiring.
>

now available:

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/nightlights/blackout081403-20hrsbefore-text.jpg
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/nightlights/blackout081503-7hrsafter-text.jpg

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[Skip Tavakkolian]

>> Good one; although probably more applicable to a .NET grid.
>> NOAA before and after satellite pictures should be inspiring.
>>
>
> now available:
>
> http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/nightlights/blackout081403-20hrsbefore-text.jpg
> http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/nightlights/blackout081503-7hrsafter-text.jpg


After a little more thought, I was going to suggest the following for a logo,
but I soon realized my mistake.

http://www.thegrillstoreandmore.com/image/products/big-pics/20323.jpg

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[Jim Choate]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, David Presotto wrote:

> If the two machines have fixed addresses there's no reason to use
> dns at all.
>
> You should have a /lib/ndb/local that lists the network with the
> appropriate auth server and fs server.  For example:
>
> ipnet=robsnet ip=199.199.9.0
> 	ipgw=199.199.9.1
> 	fs=199.199.9.2
> 	auth=199.199.9.3
>
> Or you can use symbolic names instead of the ip addresses:
>
> ipnet=robsnet ip=199.199.9.0
> 	ipgw=199.199.9.1
> 	fs=robsfs.rob.net
> 	auth=robsauth.rob.net
>
> ip=199.99.9.2 dom=robsfs.rob.net
> ip=199.99.9.3 dom=robsauth.rob.net
>
> and if you want them to boot off of a plan9 dhcp/bootp/tftp server
>
> ipnet=robsnet ip=199.199.9.0
> 	ipgw=199.199.9.1
> 	fs=robsfs.rob.net
> 	auth=robsauth.rob.net
>
> ip=199.99.9.2 dom=robsfs.rob.net
> 	ether=123456789012
> 	bootf=/386/9pcfs
> ip=199.99.9.3 dom=robsauth.rob.net
> 	ether=123456789013
> 	bootf=/386/9pccpu

Cool, care to discuss a more complicated graph? Rob's question is actually
a sub-problem of the more global problem. Bootstrapping Austin into a
workable entity.


Consider:

Site A

open-forge.org
Fractional T1
DNS (16 IP's)
mail
auth
cpu
file

Site B

ssz.com
ISDN to Site A
DNS (share IPs' w/ open-forge)
mail
auth
cpu
file

Site C

(no domain)
DHCP
auth
cpu file


Problem:

We want each site to have a sinlge machine handle the authorization for
that domain. It should also handle access by members of the 'h18' domain
(which is virtual in the sense that it's not tied to any IP or domain).
open-forge and ssz each run their own DNS (or share a single one, usually
at open-forge). Site C however is dhcp with no permanent IP's. This is a
problem for auth services I suspect, they need some sort of IP/name
connection. Which is the reason that I suggested to Rob that he shold
create a DNS domain of .rob and configure his machines.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

      We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I
      are going to spend the rest of our lives.

                              Criswell, "Plan 9 from Outer Space"

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.org
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.org
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

[9fans] Q: Drawterm Subscriptions?

[Jim Choate]

Hi,

I'm wondering what the level of interest would be for drawterm accounts
for sale to the general public. Open Forge is thinking of offering such
a service if there were some interest. It would be -something- like
$10/month or $100/yr.

If so, please contact me directly.

Thanks.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

      We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I
      are going to spend the rest of our lives.

                              Criswell, "Plan 9 from Outer Space"

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.org
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.org
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] Q: Drawterm Subscriptions?

[Andrew]

or i could give you one for free...

On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 04:23:16PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm wondering what the level of interest would be for drawterm accounts
> for sale to the general public. Open Forge is thinking of offering such
> a service if there were some interest. It would be -something- like
> $10/month or $100/yr.
>
> If so, please contact me directly.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>
>       We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I
>       are going to spend the rest of our lives.
>
>                               Criswell, "Plan 9 from Outer Space"
>
>       ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.org
>       www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.org
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

[9fans] Node architecture? (Re: The 9grid)

[Jim Choate]

Hi,

The model that we're using at H18 for a "suggested node" is:


laptop (Multiple OS, dedicated IP & DHCP, all apps work under DHCP,
        Ethernet, USB, Firewire, Wireless, etc.)

network connections
                   |
                firewall (Linux: DNS, mail, irc), no ip_forward)
                   |
                   +-------network sniffer/packet analyzer (Any OS/App)
                   |
                   +-------auth, cpu (Plan 9, not good choice for I/O)
                   |
                   +-------wireless AP (hub, DHCP srvr, firewall, nat)
                   |
                   +-------I/O, cpu (Plan 9, workstation)
                   |
                   +-------file (Plan 9)


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

      We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I
      are going to spend the rest of our lives.

                              Criswell, "Plan 9 from Outer Space"

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.org
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.org
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] Q: Drawterm Subscriptions?

[Jim Choate]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Andrew wrote:

>
> or i could give you one for free...

Cool, what URL should I put on the H18 webpage?


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

      We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I
      are going to spend the rest of our lives.

                              Criswell, "Plan 9 from Outer Space"

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.org
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.org
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] Q: Drawterm Subscriptions?

[Andrew]

On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 04:40:24PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>
> On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Andrew wrote:
>
> >
> > or i could give you one for free...
>
> Cool, what URL should I put on the H18 webpage?

just put my email up there for now, i dont have time to design a webpage
atm

Re: [9fans] Q: Drawterm Subscriptions?

[boyd, rounin]

> On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 04:23:16PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm wondering what the level of interest would be for drawterm accounts
> > for sale to the general public. Open Forge is thinking of offering such
> > a service if there were some interest. It would be -something- like
> > $10/month or $100/yr.

drawterm accounts should be free.  charging?  what!?!

hanger 18 should go do that -- hang themselves.

Re: [9fans] Q: Drawterm Subscriptions?

[matt]

>
>
>>>. It would be -something- like
>>>$10/month or $100/yr.
>>>
>>>
>
>drawterm accounts should be free.  charging?  what!?!
>
>hanger 18 should go do that -- hang themselves.
>

Beware geeks bearing gifts jk

Re: [9fans] Q: Drawterm Subscriptions?

[Joseph Holsten]

I actually would be interested in a drawterm subscription. Although I
would prefer the free one, i think you all should respect the concept
of charging for a service.
<rant>
I love the "flame choate" crusade as much as anyone (hangar 18
excluded), this is one situation which isn't appropriate for that sort
of thing. You wouldn't your isp for charging for access, now would you?
However, his list isn't spamfans. In the same way that i expect to
receive no penis/bust enlargement advertisements, nor do i wish to
change my long distance provider, I don't expect to receive drawterm
adverts. As this list exists for the improvement and support of plan9,
only free offers should be presented here. If freedom (in both senses)
of information wasn't important to us, we probably wouldn't be using
plan9.
</rant>
Any responses to this email should be sent to gaph@swbell.net or a bit
bucket.

----------- Nosce Te Ipsum -----------
Joseph A. P. Holsten   gaph@swbell.net
White Rabbit Computing   918.814.7879

Re: [9fans] Q: Drawterm Subscriptions?

[Bruce Ellis]

well if you pay for such a service you expect some level of service.
what are the terms?  maybe you can get a freebie if you help them
setup the DNS?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Holsten" <gaph@swbell.net>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: [9fans] Q: Drawterm Subscriptions?


> I actually would be interested in a drawterm subscription. Although I
> would prefer the free one, i think you all should respect the concept
> of charging for a service.
> <rant>

Re: [9fans] Q: Drawterm Subscriptions?

[Jim Choate]

Hi Andrew,


On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Andrew wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 04:40:24PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Andrew wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > or i could give you one for free...
> >
> > Cool, what URL should I put on the H18 webpage?
>
> just put my email up there for now, i dont have time to design a webpage
> atm

That's cool and I appreciate the effort, but it's a little more
complicated than just slapping your email address on a web page.

I assume that this means you will be an active node in H18? If so then
I'll need a URL and we'll need to work out the authorization issues with
regard to auth servers. That pretty much requires some sort of webpage on
your end.

And I've got to ask, if you don't have time to slap a simple web page
together, where are you going to get the time to actually do the work
required to manage a bunch of drawterm accounts? That definitely won't be
configure and forget.

If you're serious about this then you'll need to provide the following
for H18:

- a URL that details the conditions of a drawterm accounts (ie AUP). There
  also needs to be some maximum time limit on your responses (not just
  when you get around to it).

- what's the size of your pipe and how many connections can you handle at
  one time?

- a valid email address that will be read at least once a day, every day.

- we'll need personal contact info so that H18 or Open Forge can contact
  you directly.

- you'll need to join the node policy mailing list for H18.

- we've got to work out tha authdom issues that we're currently working
  on. Those who helps will be listed as a contributor.

Just a suggestion, but you may want to discuss the particulars directly
with me rather than over the list. But, either is acceptable to me.

Thanks again for piping up on this. I appreciate the effort.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

      We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I
      are going to spend the rest of our lives.

                              Criswell, "Plan 9 from Outer Space"

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.org
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.org
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] Q: Drawterm Subscriptions?

[Jim Choate]

On Sun, 17 Aug 2003, Bruce Ellis wrote:

> well if you pay for such a service you expect some level of service.
> what are the terms?

That will depend on a lot of things.

What do you think are fair terms?

> maybe you can get a freebie if you help them
> setup the DNS?

Don't need help setting up DNS. What we could use some help with is the
authdom issues. Outside of that I think we're well in hand.

The only thing we can offer in return is credit in the How To.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

      We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I
      are going to spend the rest of our lives.

                              Criswell, "Plan 9 from Outer Space"

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.org
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.org
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] Q: Drawterm Subscriptions?

[Andrew]

okay, just to make things clear:

I dont want a H18 account, nor will i bend over and get one so that i
can advertising my plan9 cluster on your beloved site. Or "be an active
node on H18." If its beyond you to place a simple item somewhere on
your site saying "so and so has a small plan9 cluster of his own and
is willing to give you a free drawterm account within the limits of his
internet connection, please email him at nospam@foo.com for info."

Answer to your question: Setting up 'drawterm accounts' isnt very difficult.
It requires adding a user at the file server and adding a user at the
auth server, then sending off the standard email explaining what is where.
My plan9 system has been pretty low mainanence at this point anyways. Its
been up and running for 52 days now, and considering the last power
outage was 52 days ago... "definitly not configure and forget"

My interest in plan9 is on an operating systems level, I like learning
how it works, not providing a 'service' for people aside from allowing
them to fulfill a similiar desire. It is extremely cheap for me to add
accounts, so in my opinion, why not share the wealth.

I am not a web designer, I am a student/programmer. Web design is
probably the furthest thing from my interests that still involves
computers. Furthermore, as I have stated I do not have time or sufficient
motivation at this time to make a website so people can put in what
they want their account to be called, so it can email me and tell me
when instead they could just email me.

Perhaps when accounts start flowing in by the hundreds I will add a
website, except at that point Im out of bandwidth anyways.

Thanks
Andrew

ps anyone who wants an account: email me off list.
(see, slapping my email on a website, very complicated)


On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 07:22:04AM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>
> Hi Andrew,
>
>
> On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Andrew wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 04:40:24PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> > >
> > > On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Andrew wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > or i could give you one for free...
> > >
> > > Cool, what URL should I put on the H18 webpage?
> >
> > just put my email up there for now, i dont have time to design a webpage
> > atm
>
> That's cool and I appreciate the effort, but it's a little more
> complicated than just slapping your email address on a web page.
>
> I assume that this means you will be an active node in H18? If so then
> I'll need a URL and we'll need to work out the authorization issues with
> regard to auth servers. That pretty much requires some sort of webpage on
> your end.
>
> And I've got to ask, if you don't have time to slap a simple web page
> together, where are you going to get the time to actually do the work
> required to manage a bunch of drawterm accounts? That definitely won't be
> configure and forget.
>
> If you're serious about this then you'll need to provide the following
> for H18:
>
> - a URL that details the conditions of a drawterm accounts (ie AUP). There
>   also needs to be some maximum time limit on your responses (not just
>   when you get around to it).
>
> - what's the size of your pipe and how many connections can you handle at
>   one time?
>
> - a valid email address that will be read at least once a day, every day.
>
> - we'll need personal contact info so that H18 or Open Forge can contact
>   you directly.
>
> - you'll need to join the node policy mailing list for H18.
>
> - we've got to work out tha authdom issues that we're currently working
>   on. Those who helps will be listed as a contributor.
>
> Just a suggestion, but you may want to discuss the particulars directly
> with me rather than over the list. But, either is acceptable to me.
>
> Thanks again for piping up on this. I appreciate the effort.
>
>
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
>
>       We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I
>       are going to spend the rest of our lives.
>
>                               Criswell, "Plan 9 from Outer Space"
>
>       ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.org
>       www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.org
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Re: [9fans] Q: Drawterm Subscriptions?

[Jim Choate]

Ok, thanks. I'll use this email the base.

On Sun, 17 Aug 2003, Andrew wrote:

> If its beyond you to place a simple item somewhere on
> your site saying "so and so has a small plan9 cluster of his own and
> is willing to give you a free drawterm account within the limits of his
> internet connection, please email him at nospam@foo.com for info."

Not at all. Making sure it's correct another thing entirely. I'd also like
to be assured that when you drop the service at some point we find out
about it in a timely manner.

afrayedknot@thefrayedknot.armory.com it is.

> I am not a web designer, I am a student/programmer. Web design is
> probably the furthest thing from my interests that still involves
> computers.

I'm talking about something that can be put together in about 15 minutes.
The reality is "He said..." isn't very convincing and without you at least
putting up your own page to that effect... It's also usefull so that if
you decide you're going to stop you can post something ahead of time. A
basic blurb just seems considerate.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

      We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I
      are going to spend the rest of our lives.

                              Criswell, "Plan 9 from Outer Space"

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.org
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.org
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[Rob Ristroph]

>>>>> "David" == David Presotto <presotto@closedmind.org> writes:
David>
David> If the two machines have fixed addresses there's no reason to
David> use dns at all.
David>
David> You should have a /lib/ndb/local that lists the network with
David> the appropriate auth server and fs server.  For example:
David>
David> ipnet=robsnet ip=199.199.9.0
David> 	ipgw=199.199.9.1
David> 	fs=199.199.9.2
David> 	auth=199.199.9.3

Here is what my /lib/ndb/local loks like right now:

#
#  files comprising the database, use ad many as you like, see ndb(6)
#
database=
    file=/lib/ndb/local
    file=/lib/ndb/common

ipnet=robsnet ip=192.168.0.0
    ipgw=192.168.1.1
    fs=192.168.1.17
    auth=192.168.1.18

#auth=sources.cs.bell-labs.com authdom=outside.plan9.bell-labs.com
authdom=robsnet

I think the last line is not needed.

When I then reboot the machine from the pcauth kernel, and then on a
linux machine run this command:

./drawterm-linux -c 192.168.1.18 -a 192.168.1.18

I get the drawterm prompt in the drawterm window:

user[none]: rgr
password:

but after I type my password, I get this message at the linux command
line, and the drawterm seems to freeze up:

./drawterm-linux: cannot authenticate with p9
abort 4035

On the Plan 9 computer, the last few lines of /sys/log/auth look like
this:

192.168.1.18 Aug 17 09:13:18 keyfs starting warning: 3f3f7f6e
              3f3e2b9a
192.168.1.18 Aug 17 09:13:18 tr-ok rgr@rgr(192.168.1.1) -> rgr@rgr
192.168.1.18 Aug 17 09:13:18 tr-ok rgr@rgr(192.168.1.1) -> rgr@bootes

Any suggestions as to what I should check next ?

--Rob

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[boyd, rounin]

> authdom=robsnet

methinks you need a real domain name 'resolvable' with the dns.

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[andrey mirtchovski]

On Sun, 17 Aug 2003, boyd, rounin wrote:

> > authdom=robsnet
>
> methinks you need a real domain name 'resolvable' with the dns.
>

no, not really. it's just supplemental to the whole authentication process.
for example the standard /lib/ndb/local in the distribution contains an
entry for the update server:

	auth=sources.cs... authdom=outside.plan9.bell-labs.com

the authdom in this case is unresolvable too (yet replica/pull works for
everyone).

we're using different authdoms to have a set of different auth servers for
local and for 9grid accounts, though this isn't perfected yet.

andrey

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[Ralph Corderoy]

crap

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[ron minnich]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:

> >> 'one of its kind', in the sense that nobody else is doing it right ;)
> >
> > "Plan 9 is a Grid operating system sui generis"
> >
> > the grammar is wrong, to my classically trained earlobe.
> > make your own substition and see how it sounds:
> > 	"Plan 9 is a Grid operating system one of its kind".
>
> This whole exchange reminds me of this scene from Monty Python's
> "Life of Brian":

.
.
.

maybe I should have just put this on there instead :)

ron

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[ron minnich]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, David Presotto wrote:

> Actually, if you translate the latin it is
>
> 	Plan 9 is a Grid operating system of its own kind.

well, that was my translation but i'm just an EE, so what do I know.

ron

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[Bruce Ellis]

no, that was when andrew hume was still in the building.

----- Original Message -----
From: "rob pike, esq." <rob@mightycheese.com>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: [9fans] The 9grid.


> > sui generis is a possessive form (genus suum would be the subjective).
>
> what about the posterior informal?

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[boyd, rounin]

sounds like to me that rob is being gratuitously a pain.

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[andrey mirtchovski]

sui generis adj : constituting a class of its own; unique; "a history book sui generis";

WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[rob pike, esq.]

> sui generis is a possessive form (genus suum would be the subjective).

what about the posterior informal?

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[boyd, rounin]

yeah, conguate the verb to go ...

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[Skip Tavakkolian]

>> 'one of its kind', in the sense that nobody else is doing it right ;)
>
> "Plan 9 is a Grid operating system sui generis"
>
> the grammar is wrong, to my classically trained earlobe.
> make your own substition and see how it sounds:
> 	"Plan 9 is a Grid operating system one of its kind".

This whole exchange reminds me of this scene from Monty Python's
"Life of Brian":

Centurion: What's this then? Romanes eunt domus? People call around marnays they go the house?

Brian: It...it says: "Romans go home."

Centurion: No, it doesn't.

Brian: Aih.

Centurion: What's Latin for Romans? Come on!

Brian: Aih! Aah! Romanus!

Centurion: Goes like...?

Brian: Anis?

Centurion: Vocative plural of anis is...?

Brian: Ani?

Centurion: Romani...Eunt? What is eunt?

Brian: "Go"! De...

Centurion: Conjugate the verb "go"!

Brian: Aah...ere, eo, is, it, imus, itis, eunt.

Centurion: So eunt is...?

Brian: Aah, ehm...third person plural present indicative. Ehm..."they go".

Centurion: But "Romans go home" is an order, so you must use the...?

Brian: Aih! Imperative!

Centurion: Which is...?

Brian: Ehm, oh...oh, ehm...i, i!

Centurion: How many Romans?

Brian: Aah! it's...plural, plural! Ite! Ite!

Centurion: Ite.

Brian: Aah, ah.

Centurion: Domus? Nominative?

Brian: Ah, ah?

Centurion: "Go home", this is motion towards, isn't it, boy?

Brian: Ehm...ehm...dative sir?

Sword: [Slinskt]

Brian: Aih! Ooh! Not dative, not the dative, sir! Nah, aah! Ooh! The...accusative! Accusative! Aah! Domum, sir! Ad domum!

Aah, ooh!

Centurion: Except that domus takes the...?

Brian: Aah! The locative, sir! Aah!

Centurion: Which is...?

Brian: Domum! Aah, ah, aah...

Centurion: Domum...um. Understand?

Brian: Yes, sir!

Centurion: Now, write that a hundred times!

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[David Presotto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 171 bytes --]

Actually, if you translate the latin it is

	Plan 9 is a Grid operating system of its own kind.

sui generis is a possessive form (genus suum would be the subjective).

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2172 bytes --]

From: "rob pike, esq." <rob@mightycheese.com>
To: mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] The 9grid.
Date: Fri Aug 15 17:40:15 PDT 2003
Message-ID: <66e287e25e5bac3fe776ec72815b7458@mightycheese.com>

> 'one of its kind', in the sense that nobody else is doing it right ;)

"Plan 9 is a Grid operating system sui generis"

the grammar is wrong, to my classically trained earlobe.
make your own substition and see how it sounds:
	"Plan 9 is a Grid operating system one of its kind".


-rob

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[Herbert B. Hancock]

Oh I don't know, hanging around the library can be useful, we have 2 (and a third being configured) Plan 9 machines here at the Alexander Library at Rutgers. We also have books on distributed operating systems.  Not that I read anything but the Plan 9 man pages and the mailing list!
All the best,
Brian


----- Original Message -----
From: nehal@ccs.lanl.gov
Date: Friday, August 15, 2003 8:47 pm
Subject: Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

> oh oh ron's been reading again (i thought
> i saw your car at the library).. nothing
> good can come from that...
>
> nehal
> >
> > On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, rob pike, esq. wrote:
> >
> > > strange use of 'sui generis'
> > >
> >
> > 'one of its kind', in the sense that nobody else is doing it
> right ;)
> >
> >
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] The 9grid.

[rob pike, esq.]

> 'one of its kind', in the sense that nobody else is doing it right ;)

"Plan 9 is a Grid operating system sui generis"

the grammar is wrong, to my classically trained earlobe.
make your own substition and see how it sounds:
	"Plan 9 is a Grid operating system one of its kind".


-rob