[9fans] Future of Plan9

[9fans] Future of Plan9

[Jaytee]

Hello everybody!

I'm very green about Plan9.
I justo found it in the net and i'm curious about it's future.
Do you think that is good idea to learn using and programming Plan9?
Is there any future for this system?  If yes then in what industry?
In what kind of machines Plan 9 is used?  In Palmtops?  or maybe
specialized web servers?  maybe in any other industry?
Excuse me my questions, i know they may be silly, i just want to hear
some opinions from people who use Plan 9 in their work places or homes.



Greetings!

Jacek Szydlowski
jaytee@janowo.net

[9fans] Re: Future of Plan9

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

Jaytee wrote:
> Do you think that is good idea to learn using and programming Plan9?
> Is there any future for this system?  If yes then in what industry?

Plan 9 is about ideas, not markets.

[9fans] Re: Future of Plan9

[Jim Choate]

On Tue, 11 Feb 2003, Douglas A. Gwyn wrote:

> Jaytee wrote:
> > Do you think that is good idea to learn using and programming Plan9?
> > Is there any future for this system?  If yes then in what industry?
>
> Plan 9 is about ideas, not markets.

He means the 'market of ideas'.

Everything that involves more than two is a 'market' by definition.

Yes, there is a future to Plan 9, just don't look here.

Hangar 18 is a the first Plan 9 co-operative of Plan 9 users (there are
about a dozen of us so far) which is focused on the real world use and
growth of Plan 9, as compared to the goal of the 9Fans list (which is to
keep Plan 9 a research/ivor tower application).

http://open-forge.org

It is important to understand that the real world growth of Plan 9 is in
direct opposition to the goals and desires of the original developers and
9Fans subscribers.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

      We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I
      are going to spend the rest of our lives.

                              Criswell, "Plan 9 from Outer Space"

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.org
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.org
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] Re: Future of Plan9

[Russ Cox]

> It is important to understand that the real world growth of Plan 9 is in
> direct opposition to the goals and desires of the original developers and
> 9Fans subscribers.

It is important to understand that this is Jim Choate's opinion
and not necessarily a true statement.

Russ

Re: [9fans] Re: Future of Plan9

[Jim Choate]

On Tue, 11 Feb 2003, Russ Cox wrote:

> > It is important to understand that the real world growth of Plan 9 is in
> > direct opposition to the goals and desires of the original developers and
> > 9Fans subscribers.
>
> It is important to understand that this is Jim Choate's opinion
> and not necessarily a true statement.

Ditto, however I believe the evidence will speak for itself. And there
will be no discussion of 'opinion' at that juncture.

Irrespective of Russ' opinion, the fact remains that this list and many of
its members are -not- interested in the growth of Plan 9 outside of a
small research community.

You'll find the appropriate quotes, at least two from Russ in the last two
years, in the archives to that effect.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

      We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I
      are going to spend the rest of our lives.

                              Criswell, "Plan 9 from Outer Space"

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.org
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.org
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] Re: Future of Plan9

[Fco.J.Ballesteros]

We have gone through this before.
I'm using it for my real world work, as others do.
Could we stop discussing philosophy and get back to system
issues?

thanks a lot

[9fans] Re: Future of Plan9

[Jim Choate]

On Tue, 11 Feb 2003, Fco.J.Ballesteros wrote:

> We have gone through this before.

And we ain't done yet, by a long shot.

> I'm using it for my real world work, as others do.

BFD, that is -not- the measure of success in Open Source. User base is
(just as in real world commercial software).

> Could we stop discussing philosophy and get back to system
> issues?

You draw a specious distinction. One can't exist without the other. If you
don't want to participate in the discussion then don't (I believe Plan 9
has a 'd' key like most other OS'es). Stay stuck in the compiler telling
yourself the same old same old, that's your choice. Nobody makes you reply
to my submissions to this list other than your own bruised ego.

The reality is that the Plan 9 community, as I've said before, is inbread
and really not effective at developing a -thriving- user community. You
can write all the nifty code you want, if nobody uses it you've wasted
your effort. A user community equals success, period.

After being available for two(!!!) years some very important observations
can be made about the (in)viability of the Plan 9 developer community as
it stands now.

-	Not a single other user group exists (it's ok, Hangar 18 has
	folks in several cities around the US). -NO- other efforts
	are extant outside of Hangar 18.

	After two(!!!) years that's an embarassing statement to make,
	even for me. It didn't take but a little over a year from the
	first time Linus released Linux until the first user groups
	started. I have a hard time explaining in a rational, reasonable
	way to people who have a interest in using Plan 9 why this is. It
	in fact is one of the major turn-offs to get people to even try it.
	People who are technically aware of the history of Unix and Plan 9
	generally walk away in shock.

-	There are no(!!!) introductory documents for new users (don't
	worry, Hangar 18 is working on that now.

-	I've yet to see an actual article in -any- of the commercial or
	Open Source technical or user community literature (it's Ok,
	we're working on that too).

-	The boot process is still one of the most aggravating issues for
	any new Plan 9 user (we're working on that also).

-	The commercial outlet for Plan 9 has zero, nada, nil, null
	programs for fostering user communities. The best we've received
	to date is some snide comment by one of the reps about free
	t-shirts if somebody writes code. As if getting people to use that
	code isn't at least as important (especially if you want people
	to buy gobs of your product - 90% of all users are just that,
	users; not developers).

	I had hoped to address this issue by forming a LLC but the poor
	economy has dashed that because the other participants in the
	fledgling effort simply don't have the resources at this time
	so we're going to have to put that one off for the time being.

-	Plan 9 is a -distributed- OS, using it on your own personal
	desktop is like driving a Indy car around a Malibu Grand Prix
	track (no affiliation or insult intended to Malibu). Not a single
	resource exists outside of Hangar 18 to foster the growth and
	development of distributed resources for public access via Open
	Source efforts.

-	I've made two offers to public comment about Plan 9 events to
	 get users to appear at events where Plan 9 was supposedly to be
	'demonstrated'.

	That's a pitifull responce and in and of itself justifies heaps
	of abuse on the development community. The offer stands open to
	any individual or organization that is interested in promoting
	wider use of Plan 9, I will do whatever I can do help.

-	There is no effort outside of Hangar 18 to create a Open Source
	public access point into relevant resources. Instead we get an
	endless stream of "Try this site..." instead of a more reasoned,
	and rational Plan 9 approach of attaching those resources to a
	common name space and having them appear automagically to -all-
	users in tandem.

	What a joke, the Plan 9 developers don't even understand how to
	use their own creation effectively. Instead they use the same old
	same old, treating Plan 9 as if it were just another varient of
	*nix.

-	There are -no- efforts outside of Hangar 18 to foster the use
	of Plan 9 and wireless networking to really demonstrate the
	power of distributed computing (to quote Rheingold - what
	happens when that PDA in your hand is the front end to a
	tera-flop distributed computing resource?). If we follow the
	Plan 9 development community we'll never know. Plan 9 has the
	power to give us that -TODAY-.

What a sad list of failures of the Plan 9 development community. And it
would take such little effort to do something about each and every one of
them. Plan 9 has such promise and to think it will die because the people
who create it lack the vision to understand how to really use it. Of
course part of the problem is that many of the developers have never
really embraced the concept of Open Source and what that means to them
individually, let alone having any interest in distributed computing
outside of getting their name plastered on some source tree somewhere
that will be admired by some small closed community. Bruised ego indeed.

Sigh.

Hangar 18 may be slow and poor, but at least we act.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

      We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I
      are going to spend the rest of our lives.

                              Criswell, "Plan 9 from Outer Space"

      ravage@ssz.com                            jchoate@open-forge.org
      www.ssz.com                               www.open-forge.org
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] Re: Future of Plan9

[Andrew]

for what its worth, ive been trying to get my own plan 9 setup going,
and more importantly, offer free accounts on it to anyone who wants
one. Its been a slow process and university work/life takes too much time
to let me get away and do more work on it. Realistically, theres not going to
be a huge number of people who _actually_ want to try and use my plan9
setup, but Im trying to at least raise awareness about it and its ideas.

There is some work, although small, outside of hangar 18.

>
> -	Not a single other user group exists (it's ok, Hangar 18 has
> 	folks in several cities around the US). -NO- other efforts
> 	are extant outside of Hangar 18.
>
<snip>
> -	Plan 9 is a -distributed- OS, using it on your own personal
> 	desktop is like driving a Indy car around a Malibu Grand Prix
> 	track (no affiliation or insult intended to Malibu). Not a single
> 	resource exists outside of Hangar 18 to foster the growth and
> 	development of distributed resources for public access via Open
> 	Source efforts.
>
<snip>
> -	There is no effort outside of Hangar 18 to create a Open Source
> 	public access point into relevant resources. Instead we get an
> 	endless stream of "Try this site..." instead of a more reasoned,
> 	and rational Plan 9 approach of attaching those resources to a
> 	common name space and having them appear automagically to -all-
> 	users in tandem.
>
> 	What a joke, the Plan 9 developers don't even understand how to
> 	use their own creation effectively. Instead they use the same old
> 	same old, treating Plan 9 as if it were just another varient of
> 	*nix.
>
> -	There are -no- efforts outside of Hangar 18 to foster the use
> 	of Plan 9 and wireless networking to really demonstrate the
> 	power of distributed computing (to quote Rheingold - what
> 	happens when that PDA in your hand is the front end to a
> 	tera-flop distributed computing resource?). If we follow the
> 	Plan 9 development community we'll never know. Plan 9 has the
> 	power to give us that -TODAY-.
>

Re: [9fans] Re: Future of Plan9

[matt]

sorry for being sucked in

> > We have gone through this before.
> And we ain't done yet, by a long shot.

how tiresome

>
> > I'm using it for my real world work, as others do.
>
> BFD, that is -not- the measure of success in Open Source. User base is
> (just as in real world commercial software).

That is an assumption *you* make.

I don't get this fascination with domination.

The measure of Plan 9's success [and indeed any project] can only be "does
it meet the objectives of it's creators?"

"Plan 9 began in the late 1980's as an attempt to have it both ways: to
build a system that was centrally administered and cost-effective using
cheap modern microcomputers as its computing elements. "

That's it. Any other metric you apply about success or failure is one you
have decided upon.
Criticising those who don't share your objectives for not doing so is pretty
childish.


I think it is lofty and noble that you wish to bring more people to plan9
but that is you scratching your itch.
I don't think for one minute it is the job of Russ, Rob, Dave et. al. to not
only develop, support and maintain plan9 in their own time in a decimated
lab owned by a company with financial woes where morale is lowered and the
future more uncertain than before but you want them out there drumming up
new users too! And if they go about this in a way you don't like you will
berate and insult them!


> The reality is that the Plan 9 community, as I've said before, is inbread
> and really not effective at developing a -thriving- user community.

I don't surround myself in bread and I am not inbred.

There have been over 75 contributors to the mailing list so far this year.
Are saying that all of them come from the same circle of users?

The day I installed Plan 9 for the first time I had not heard of anyone on
this list except Dennis [and I didn't know he was anything to do with it at
the time].

I can't be the only person here that's not from Bell Labs or associated
places.

Is it just me, am I the only outsider?

> You can write all the nifty code you want, if nobody uses it you've wasted
> your effort. A user community equals success, period.

Not true. code for codes sake to scratch any itch you like is a self
contained success

Nobody should *ever* use my irc bot but does that mean it's a failure and
writing it was a mistake?


> After two(!!!) years that's an embarassing statement to make,
> even for me. It didn't take but a little over a year from the
> first time Linus released Linux until the first user groups
> started. I have a hard time explaining in a rational, reasonable
> way to people who have a interest in using Plan 9 why this is. It
> in fact is one of the major turn-offs to get people to even try it.

Are you really telling me that you have met someone that said
"I would use Plan 9 only there aren't enough user groups in my area"

Last time it was the licence that stopped people using it, now it's the user
community.

I think it says more about the people you introduce Plan 9 to than anything
about Plan 9.

Linux filled a niche - a free unix like system.
Plan 9's niche is very different.

Feel free to make your own decisions about what you would like to see but
why the hostility towards those that don't share *YOUR* vision.


> - There are no(!!!) introductory documents for new users (don't
> worry, Hangar 18 is working on that now.

eh? I have a set of manuals & papers here and all the source code. That is
all I needed to get started.
Okay, it's a subset of the ideal set of documentation but it's more than I
got when I bought my car and a damn sight more than you get with Windows

> - The boot process is still one of the most aggravating issues for
> any new Plan 9 user (we're working on that also).

It wasn't the most aggravating issue for me so how can that be true for all
users?


> - The commercial outlet for Plan 9 has zero, nada, nil, null
> programs for fostering user communities.

let's get blogging

honestly,

"we are going to ...", "we are planning to ...", "why aren't you ..."

put up and people will shut up



M

Re: [9fans] Re: Future of Plan9

[Digby Tarvin]

A saying involving mouths of gift horses springs to mind about now...

If only Bell Labs would only let us pay for Plan9 (and I for one paid for
my first copy, and was happy to do so), maybe they would have
an incentive to worry about its commercial use...

I like Plan9 (and Unix) because of good design and source availability,
not because I can get them free. I avoid Windows, not because it is
commercial, but because there is no source and it is rubbish. Not that I
am complaining about being forced to keep my money..

But as long as Plan9 makes no money for the labs, they really have no
business wasting shareholders money promoting it or worrying about
commercial acceptance (potentially by competitors)...

For now, I don't think anyone would complain if this discussion went
off line...

Regards,
DigbyT

matt:
> > > We have gone through this before.
> > And we ain't done yet, by a long shot.
>
> how tiresome
--
Digby R. S. Tarvin                                              digbyt@acm.org
http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk

Re: [9fans] Re: Future of Plan9

[Sam]

I hate to even respond to the banter coming out of Austin
these days, but corrections must be made.

> -	Not a single other user group exists (it's ok, Hangar 18 has
> 	folks in several cities around the US). -NO- other efforts
> 	are extant outside of Hangar 18.

I'm in a local 9 users group in Athens, GA which I run.  I've gone to the
local linux user group showcase - attendance might reach 500 all day - and
hosted a table for 9 and inferno.  My experience was that technically
saavy people (read: contemporary system administrators) were curious and
impressed with simple things like bound directories and ftpfs, but
generally lost interest by the time i got around to acme.  The
"enthusiasts" didn't get it at all, and really didn't like the GUI.
Conclusion?  It's hard for non-programmers to see the beauty in 9.

>
> -	There are no(!!!) introductory documents for new users (don't
> 	worry, Hangar 18 is working on that now.
>

If you would like someone to proof them for grammar and spelling
errors, please let me know.

>
> course part of the problem is that many of the developers have never
> really embraced the concept of Open Source and what that means to them
> individually, let alone having any interest in distributed computing
> outside of getting their name plastered on some source tree somewhere
> that will be admired by some small closed community. Bruised ego indeed.
>

The modest programmer does not need to parade and showcase
each of h(is|er) accomplishments, especially to an audience
whose immediate response will be, "Cool!  Can you port that
to linux?"

If you sit down and rationalize out the percentages of
people who would appreciate, say, linux for its
"advantages" (Desktop WIMP style software, familiar
Unixish underpinnings, and virtual system administratorless
installation and operation) vs. 9 and hers it shouldn't
come as a surprise that 9's user base is a rat pack
of modest programmer curmudgeons.  Moreover, it isn't
the job of the developers to promote the software
in a public arena.  You're clearly one of the few
non-programmers in the group and as such it's your
responsibility to bridge the gap.  You guys can
do the work of bringing it to the people while
the curmudgeons keep building things like Fossil.

Please, stop with the baseless manic insults.  I
sure hope you started this rant with the troll about
plan 9's future because if not, you've likely scared
off somone who genuinely was interested; I hope it's
rather obvious this effect is converse to your goal.

Cheers,

Sam

Re: [9fans] Re: Future of Plan9

[adrian Damn it !]

Sam wrote:

> I'm in a local 9 users group in Athens, GA which I run.  I've gone to the
> local linux user group showcase - attendance might reach 500 all day - and
> hosted a table for 9 and inferno.  My experience was that technically
> saavy people (read: contemporary system administrators) were curious and
> impressed with simple things like bound directories and ftpfs, but
> generally lost interest by the time i got around to acme.  The
> "enthusiasts" didn't get it at all, and really didn't like the GUI.
> Conclusion?  It's hard for non-programmers to see the beauty in 9.


<<SNIP !>>

Sam, I`m in Lawrenceville,GA ! Didn`t know anyone was so close.
Send details about your group.

Adrian

[9fans] Re: Future of Plan9

[Matt Keeler]

adrian Damn it ! writes:

> Sam wrote:
>
>> I'm in a local 9 users group in Athens, GA which I run.  I've gone to the
>> local linux user group showcase - attendance might reach 500 all day -
>> and
>> hosted a table for 9 and inferno.  My experience was that technically
>> saavy people (read: contemporary system administrators) were curious and
>> impressed with simple things like bound directories and ftpfs, but
>> generally lost interest by the time i got around to acme.  The
>> "enthusiasts" didn't get it at all, and really didn't like the GUI.
>> Conclusion?  It's hard for non-programmers to see the beauty in 9.
>
>
> <<SNIP !>>
>
> Sam, I`m in Lawrenceville,GA ! Didn`t know anyone was so close.
> Send details about your group.
>
> Adrian
>

I'm in Atlanta/Decatur :)

 --
Matt Keeler - matt@ircguru.org
http://www.ircguru.org/

Re: [9fans] Re: Future of Plan9

[Ronald G. Minnich]

On Tue, 11 Feb 2003, Jim Choate wrote:

> It is important to understand that the real world growth of Plan 9 is in
> direct opposition to the goals and desires of the original developers and
> 9Fans subscribers.

not at all true for us.

ron

Re: [9fans] Re: Future of Plan9

[Dan Cross]

> It is important to understand that the real world growth of Plan 9 is in
> direct opposition to the goals and desires of the original developers and
> 9Fans subscribers.

So why do you still subscribe to 9fans?

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] Re: Future of Plan9

[matt]

>
> So why do you still subscribe to 9fans?
>


maybe it's time to send in the BSA to audit for any plan9 license violations
;)

Re: [9fans] Re: Future of Plan9

[ozan s yigit]

jim choate:

> Yes, there is a future to Plan 9, just don't look here.

?? this is as good a place as any to look. where else would you find the
people who produce things like the new new security architecture, or the
real-time extensions? in an old and abandoned hangar?

oz
--
music is the space between the notes. | www.cs.yorku.ca/~oz
                   -- claude debussy  | york u. dept of computer science

[9fans] Re: Future of Plan9

[north_]

> Plan 9 is about ideas, not markets.
Right on
north_

[9fans] Future of Plan9

[Stephen Adam]

Hi all...  I was completely ignorant of the existence of Plan9 until a few
days ago.  It looks very interesting...

Has anyone done an analysis of its long term prospects?  I'd love to read
about that.

How many large Plan9 sites are active?

Thanks,