[9fans] simple keyboard question

[9fans] simple keyboard question

[Hugo Santos]

How may i change the keymap in plan9? I wish to use Dvorak. I browsed
through some man pages but found no information.

Hugo Santos

Re: [9fans] simple keyboard question

[Rob Pike]

funny thing about dvorak keyboards.  they're based on bad science.
mr dvorak knew what we wanted and fudged his data until he got it,
but it was all bogus.  on the other had, the qwerty keyboard actually
was tested quite a bit in the early days and came out on top.

dvoraks are no more efficient for typists than qwerty keyboards.
the only good argument i've heard for using them is that, during the
transition period, you tend to be a very slow typist and this may
alleviate RSI.

-rob

[9fans] dvorak

[Michael Baldwin]

> funny thing about dvorak keyboards.  they're based on bad science.
> mr dvorak knew what we wanted and fudged his data until he got it,
> but it was all bogus.  on the other had, the qwerty keyboard actually
> was tested quite a bit in the early days and came out on top.

yes that's one point of view promulgated by liebowitz and margolis which
has gotten repeated far and wide.  theirs isn't the only one:

http://www.dvorak-keyboard.com/dvorak2.html
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak/dissent.html

> dvoraks are no more efficient for typists than qwerty keyboards.
> the only good argument i've heard for using them is that, during the
> transition period, you tend to be a very slow typist and this may
> alleviate RSI.

well, it seems that the fastest typist in the world uses a dvorak
keyboard, so perhaps there is something to it:

http://sominfo.syr.edu/facstaff/dvorak/blackburn.html

then again, maybe that's just propaganda.

for those that play music keyboards especially and are used to
touch typing, it's not such a big deal to switch.  i was starting to
feel some strain in my wrists and that went away, and i do know
a couple who really did have RSI and switched because of it.  eh,
for me i was just curious.  i do find it amusing to watch people try
to type on my dvorakized keyboard however, so that's a benefit.

anybody know if you can pop the keycaps on the new powerbooks?
i did on my old one.  now that's even more fun: people look at the
keyboard and at first often don't notice, but then it starts to sink in
that Something is Very Different when they try to type.  anyway,
i am not sure how well attached the keycaps are on the new ones and
i don't want to damage it.  i touch type so it's just for the
aesthetics.

Re: [9fans] simple keyboard question

[Rasputin]

Rob Pike wrote:
> funny thing about dvorak keyboards.  they're based on bad science.
> mr dvorak knew what we wanted and fudged his data until he got it,
> but it was all bogus.  on the other had, the qwerty keyboard actually
> was tested quite a bit in the early days and came out on top.
>
> dvoraks are no more efficient for typists than qwerty keyboards.
> the only good argument i've heard for using them is that, during the
> transition period, you tend to be a very slow typist and this may
> alleviate RSI.

Speaking as someone with RSI I'd disagree.The layout does seem to
minimise movement and overstretching of the fingers.
  YMMV, of course.



--
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns

Re: [9fans] simple keyboard question

[Hugo Santos]

Hugo Santos wrote:

> How may i change the keymap in plan9? I wish to use Dvorak. I browsed
> through some man pages but found no information.
>
> Hugo Santos
>
Well, thanks for all your opinions about dvorak, but the main question
wasnt answered, how do i change the keymap? :-)
About dvorak, to me, it seems a bit more logical to use and easier on
the hands than qwerty. In overall, i think it is nicer.

HS

Re: [9fans] simple keyboard question

[boyd, rounin]

> dvoraks are no more efficient for typists than qwerty keyboards.

i like US qwerty.  great to write code on.  could be better, but i'll
take US qwerty if i can get it.  writing code on azerty is no fun,
although not so bad once you've installed sam;  give me the mouse
anyday -- keyboard shortcuts are indicative of a bad mouse interface.

Re: [9fans] simple keyboard question

[Fco.J.Ballesteros]

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Copy usbhid from /n/sources/nemo (see a mail to the list about this),
then you'd have to edit a translation table (map) for dvorak. Despite
its name, usbhid handles also the cons(3) keyboard just to translate
runes to adapt to your key map.

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From: Hugo Santos <hugo_santos@users.sourceforge.net>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] simple keyboard question
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:14:20 +0000
Message-ID: <3FE61B3C.3040706@users.sourceforge.net>

Hugo Santos wrote:

> How may i change the keymap in plan9? I wish to use Dvorak. I browsed
> through some man pages but found no information.
>
> Hugo Santos
>
Well, thanks for all your opinions about dvorak, but the main question
wasnt answered, how do i change the keymap? :-)
About dvorak, to me, it seems a bit more logical to use and easier on
the hands than qwerty. In overall, i think it is nicer.

HS

Re: [9fans] dvorak

[a]

// i do find it amusing to watch people try
// to type on my dvorakized keyboard however, so that's a benefit.

i second that. "click, click, click... hey, wait a minute..."

it's also much fun to set the system back to qwerty and have the
keycaps bear no relationship to what shows up on the screen...

still, what i really want is a set of keycaps for my powerbook
with *nothing* printed on them. i used to have this great old
spring-action IBM keyboard where they keycaps were actual
*caps* that sat on top of the keys. i had them all in a plastic
baggie next to my monitor. still my favorite keyboard ever,
except for the size. loudest one i've seen.
ア

Re: [9fans] dvorak

[Brantley Coile]

>it's also much fun to set the system back to qwerty and have the
>keycaps bear no relationship to what shows up on the screen...

I helped a friend debug a program that worked while he was sitting
down, but didn't while he was standing up.  We spend about 30 minutes
puzzing over this until I noticed that someone has swapped two
of his key caps.  While he was sitting he touch typed and while
he was standing he was hunting and pecking, and hitting the
incorrect key.

I don't think we were the first to have this mysterious bug.

 Brantley

Re: [9fans] dvorak

[Adrian Tritschler]

Brantley Coile wrote:
>>it's also much fun to set the system back to qwerty and have the
>>keycaps bear no relationship to what shows up on the screen...
> 
> 
> I helped a friend debug a program that worked while he was sitting
> down, but didn't while he was standing up.  We spend about 30 minutes
> puzzing over this until I noticed that someone has swapped two
> of his key caps.  While he was sitting he touch typed and while
> he was standing he was hunting and pecking, and hitting the
> incorrect key.

Ouch! sneaky.

I found myself stuck in a foreign internet cafe once, unable to login to 
my web-based email system.  I had no idea what my password was, I knew 
what the finger pattern was to type the password - but only on a QWERTY 
keyboard.

Whichever one you're used to, finding yourself at a different keyboard 
is a major irritation, especially in a foreign place while paying $10 
per hour to try and read email on a badly maintained filthy windows 98 
PC, connected by a piece of wet string to the internet.

> I don't think we were the first to have this mysterious bug.
> 
>  Brantley

---------------------------------------------------------------
Adrian Tritschler                          mailto:ajft@ajft.org
Latitude 38°S, Longitude 145°E, Altitude 50m,      Shoe size 44
---------------------------------------------------------------

RE: [9fans] dvorak

[boyd, rounin]

> Whichever one you're used to, finding yourself at a different keyboard

> is a major irritation, ...

sure is.  when I moved to .fr I decided that learning to type on azerty
would be a good idea even though i could get a qwerty keyboard, 'cos
the probability of having qwerty elsewhere was probably gonna be pretty
low.
--
MGRS 56H LJ 78915 53260

Re: [9fans] dvorak

[jpc]

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i've always thought a great keyboard would have lcd's on each key
rather than a printed letter.  switch from dvorak to qwerty to
whatever at a command and the keyboard still reads correctly.  you
could show which greek letter or funny math symbol a key would
generate when appropriate (alt, shift, special mode of software or
whatever)

john

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From: Adrian Tritschler <ajft@ajft.org>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] dvorak
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:43:12 +1100
Message-ID: <3FE78190.5040101@ajft.org>

Brantley Coile wrote:
>>it's also much fun to set the system back to qwerty and have the
>>keycaps bear no relationship to what shows up on the screen...
> 
> 
> I helped a friend debug a program that worked while he was sitting
> down, but didn't while he was standing up.  We spend about 30 minutes
> puzzing over this until I noticed that someone has swapped two
> of his key caps.  While he was sitting he touch typed and while
> he was standing he was hunting and pecking, and hitting the
> incorrect key.

Ouch! sneaky.

I found myself stuck in a foreign internet cafe once, unable to login to 
my web-based email system.  I had no idea what my password was, I knew 
what the finger pattern was to type the password - but only on a QWERTY 
keyboard.

Whichever one you're used to, finding yourself at a different keyboard 
is a major irritation, especially in a foreign place while paying $10 
per hour to try and read email on a badly maintained filthy windows 98 
PC, connected by a piece of wet string to the internet.

> I don't think we were the first to have this mysterious bug.
> 
>  Brantley

---------------------------------------------------------------
Adrian Tritschler                          mailto:ajft@ajft.org
Latitude 38°S, Longitude 145°E, Altitude 50m,      Shoe size 44
---------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [9fans] dvorak

[Rob Pike]

> i've always thought a great keyboard would have lcd's on each key
> rather than a printed letter.  switch from dvorak to qwerty to
> whatever at a command and the keyboard still reads correctly.  you
> could show which greek letter or funny math symbol a key would
> generate when appropriate (alt, shift, special mode of software or
> whatever)

many years ago, ken knowlton had a paper in the bell labs technical
journal about a keyboard under a 45 degree-tilted half-silvered mirror.
in front of the operator was a tv screen.  when the operator looked
down,
images from the screen appeared virtually (nice to use that word
correctly for a change) projected onto the keyboard, and even on top
of the operator's hands.   when i say operator i'm using that word
correctly too: this was used to present varying keyboard layouts
to phone operators.

-rob

Re: [9fans] dvorak

[Joel Salomon]

Rob Pike said:
> in front of the operator was a tv screen.  when the operator looked
> down, images from the screen appeared virtually (nice to use that word
> correctly for a change) projected onto the keyboard, and even on top of
> the operator's hands.

Ask google about "projection keyboards" - these have no moving parts at all.

--Joel

Re: [9fans] dvorak

[Richard Miller]

> Ask google about "projection keyboards" - these have no moving parts at all.

See July 2003 CACM pp 70-71 for an intriguing picture.

Re: [9fans] dvorak

[Steve Kilbane]

Adrian Tritschler  wrote:

> I found myself stuck in a foreign internet cafe once, unable to login to 
> my web-based email system.  I had no idea what my password was, I knew 
> what the finger pattern was to type the password - but only on a QWERTY 
> keyboard.

In a similar vein, rog and I used to know someone who typed rapidly
but inaccurately. When choosing new passwords, he'd pick the password,
and then type it onto the screen a lot, quickly. Then he'd very carefully
enter the most common rendition as his password.

steve

Re: [9fans] simple keyboard question

[boyd, rounin]

> They had their fingers in many pies, including computers!  Does anyone
> remember Remington-Rand Univac?

yup

> (ps- Homage to Boyd: The M-40 sniper rifle is pretty good, but I'd just
> as soon take a Sprinfield M1A with a heavy barrel.)

been reading my SEAL Sniper Training Program :)  even in 'nam the M-40
was the weapon of choice.  but, i think i'll stick to M9's.

Re: [9fans] simple keyboard question

[boyd, rounin]

> by remington (of the rifle fame)

yeah, pass me my remington 700 with sniper scope [M-40].

Re: [9fans] simple keyboard question

[boyd, rounin]

> That Dvorak's idea was flawed, anyone can tell. But qwerty was designed
> to _slow the typist down_.

that's one theory, but i'm not sure anybody knows why (rob?).

anyway i can hunt 'n peck at 120wpm so i don't really need to
go any faster, but if i do i'll use a _well designed_ mouse interface.

Re: [9fans] simple keyboard question

[David Presotto]

Lots of ways over time.  The quick and dirty one is just change the scan code
mappings in the kernel's kbd.c.  Better you than me since you've got the
keyboard.

RE: [9fans] simple keyboard question

[Charles Forsyth]

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same principle, as often used by standards committees:
you just keep firing (typing) away until they fall down

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From: "Tiit Lankots" <t.lankots@aprote.ee>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: RE: [9fans] simple keyboard question
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:42:48 +0200
Message-ID: <81132473206F3A46A72BD6116E1A06AE479CD6@black.aprote.com>

but the google lookup was nevertheless useful.
i didn't know before that the typewriter was marketed
by remington (of the rifle fame)

Tiit

Re: [9fans] simple keyboard question

[Dan Cross]

"Tiit Lankots" <t.lankots@aprote.ee> writes:
>
> but the google lookup was nevertheless useful.
> i didn't know before that the typewriter was marketed
> by remington (of the rifle fame)

They had their fingers in many pies, including computers!  Does anyone
remember Remington-Rand Univac?

	- Dan C.

(ps- Homage to Boyd: The M-40 sniper rifle is pretty good, but I'd just
as soon take a Sprinfield M1A with a heavy barrel.)

RE: [9fans] simple keyboard question

[Tiit Lankots]

but the google lookup was nevertheless useful.
i didn't know before that the typewriter was marketed
by remington (of the rifle fame)

Tiit

RE: [9fans] simple keyboard question

[Tiit Lankots]

 > another myth, just not true.  look up the story at google.com (try
> 	dvorak keyboard fudged
> as a starter).

Different web pages tell different stories. But if experiments show
that qwerty typists are nowadays faster than dvorak's - you can't
argue with facts.

Tiit

Re: [9fans] simple keyboard question

[Rob Pike]

> That Dvorak's idea was flawed, anyone can tell. But qwerty was designed
> to _slow the typist down_.

another myth, just not true.  look up the story at google.com (try
	dvorak keyboard fudged
as a starter).

-rob

RE: [9fans] simple keyboard question

[Tiit Lankots]

> dvoraks are no more efficient for typists than qwerty keyboards.
> the only good argument i've heard for using them is that, during the
> transition period, you tend to be a very slow typist and this may
> alleviate RSI.

That Dvorak's idea was flawed, anyone can tell. But qwerty was designed
to _slow the typist down_. 

Tiit