From: Randolph Fritz <randolph@panix.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: Re[4]: [9fans] home, end ^h^j^k^l
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:24:54 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <slrn9gml3j.db2.randolph@panix6.panix.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20010519141427.A5005199C1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
In article <20010519141427.A5005199C1@mail.cse.psu.edu>, rob pike wrote:
>
> Are we settling in? Does everyone agree that ^C is copy and ^V is
> paste?
>
Windows and Mac do...or more precisely, Mac uses command-C and
command-V; windows uses control-C and control-V. (And Microsoft
changed midstream; their original choices were amazingly hard to type
and remember.)
One change it seems that could be easily made is the use of the PgDn
key for the "view" key; it is *extremely* confusing to go back and
forth to other systems that ues the downarrow key as a cursor
positioning key
IIRC, the Mac key choices were originally made on the basis of ease of
gesture by Tognazzini.
>
> If you don't believe me, the story is here:
> http://www.asktog.com/readerMail/1999-12ReaderMail.html
> Thanks to some forgotten 9fan who mentioned this a while back.
>
That was me. :-)
> I didn't know about these experiments when I said, long ago, that
> using arrow keys to point at a display is like telling someone how to
> go somewhere by giving directions, while using a mouse is like
> pointing at a map. In fact, I never used a screen editor until I had
> a mouse, for just this reason.
>
The last time this came up I had an off-group discussion of this; I
think some of the comments I wrote on this are relevant here.
>
> I've become frustrated with the lack of even simple cursor keys in
> Plan 9--for going one or two characters cursor keys are faster than
> mouse clicks. (I've measured it--point and click is worth about six
> keystrokes, assuming no think time.) On the other hand, having
> extensive cursor keys tempts one to use only cursor keys, but tests
> consistently show that that method of editing is actually slower than
> using a mouse, despite seeming faster.
[...]
> [Keyboard shortcuts are] an accessibility need, I'd think--not
> everyone can use a mouse, and the chording is going to be difficult
> for many people with hand disabilities [including me!], quite apart
> from the RSI risks.
>
> In my personal opinion, the two-handed model of using the mouse for
> pointing, and doing operations like cut, copy, and paste from the
> keyboard has much to recommend it for users of typical physical
> ability.
Since we are discussing UI again, let me put in a plea for user
testing. I don't even know how *I'll* respond to a new UI unless I
work with a prototype. Arguing about UI without testing is a
high-entropy (high heat, low light) activity :-)
I have come to believe that both Unix and the Macintosh owe much of
their success to user testing, with very different groups of users.
Randolph
A few web essays on user testing, to start with.
http://www.asktog.com/columns/001closecoupledtesting.html
http://www.asktog.com/columns/037TestOrElse.html
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20000319.html
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20010204.html
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2001-05-23 8:24 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 171+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2000-08-18 15:34 [9fans] Re: Solaris thread scheaduling rob pike
[not found] ` <rob@plan9.bell-labs.com>
2000-08-02 14:48 ` [9fans] pipefile rob pike
2000-08-02 15:49 ` James A. Robinson
2000-08-18 20:25 ` [9fans] Re: Solaris thread scheaduling Tom Duff
2000-09-06 21:59 ` [9fans] Reliable Cray Y-MP C90 Supercomputer rob pike
2000-09-06 22:02 ` James A. Robinson
2000-09-06 22:14 ` Boyd Roberts
2000-09-06 22:11 ` Boyd Roberts
2000-09-07 22:18 ` [9fans] new versions of graphics programs? Tom Duff
2000-11-01 22:23 ` [9fans] /n/smtp rob pike
2000-11-01 22:38 ` Scott Schwartz
2000-11-24 0:41 ` [9fans] Crazy idea... or a new project? rob pike
2000-11-24 0:48 ` Boyd Roberts
2000-11-24 22:13 ` Scott Schwartz
2000-11-24 22:24 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-06 17:11 ` [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support rob pike
2001-02-06 19:10 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-02-06 19:23 ` Dan Cross
2001-02-07 15:23 ` [9fans] 9p2k, fsync rob pike
2001-02-07 18:42 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-02-08 1:19 ` Dan Cross
2001-02-08 9:43 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-02-14 13:51 ` [9fans] isatty rob pike
2001-02-14 16:42 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-03-26 14:12 ` [9fans] sam mod for delete-forward rob pike
2001-03-26 15:37 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-03-27 8:25 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-03-27 14:01 ` Sam
2001-03-27 16:51 ` Dan Cross
2001-03-28 8:37 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-03-29 8:26 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-03-26 15:42 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-05-10 14:59 ` [9fans] snprint(), getfields() specification rob pike
2001-05-10 16:42 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-05-10 18:13 ` Steve Kilbane
2001-05-10 21:38 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-11 6:51 ` Steve Kilbane
2001-05-19 14:14 ` Re[4]: [9fans] home, end ^h^j^k^l rob pike
2001-05-19 14:26 ` Re[6]: " Matt H
2001-05-19 22:45 ` [9fans] ls -m Scott Schwartz
2001-05-19 22:50 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-19 15:35 ` Re[4]: [9fans] home, end ^h^j^k^l James A. Robinson
2001-05-19 20:36 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-19 23:30 ` Richard Elberger
2001-05-20 2:37 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20 7:03 ` Lucio De Re
2001-05-20 11:16 ` paurea
2001-05-20 13:11 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20 13:04 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-23 8:24 ` Randolph Fritz [this message]
2001-05-23 8:46 ` Re[6]: " Matt H
2001-05-23 9:04 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20 0:16 ` [9fans] ls -m rob pike
2001-05-20 0:31 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20 1:38 ` [9fans] mouse vs key Scott Schwartz
2001-05-20 6:29 ` Dan Cross
2001-05-20 8:09 ` Matt H
2001-05-20 11:35 ` Re[2]: [9fans] mouse vs key - nethack matt
2001-05-20 13:13 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20 12:50 ` [9fans] mouse vs key Boyd Roberts
2001-05-29 4:27 ` [9fans] src vs db rob pike
2001-05-29 4:37 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-07-11 19:22 ` [9fans] sam vs acme rob pike
2001-07-11 20:08 ` James A. Robinson
2001-08-14 12:54 ` [9fans] User Interface rob pike
2001-08-14 15:01 ` James A. Robinson
2001-08-16 13:45 ` phaet0n
2001-08-20 8:57 ` Randolph Fritz
2001-12-02 3:10 ` [9fans] plumb rob pike
2001-12-02 3:31 ` Scott Schwartz
2002-01-30 5:52 ` [9fans] venti rob pike
2002-01-30 6:23 ` George Michaelson
2002-01-30 8:07 ` paurea
2002-01-30 11:17 ` Boyd Roberts
2002-03-01 6:20 ` Fwd: Re: [9fans] samuel (fwd) rob pike
2002-03-01 6:34 ` George Michaelson
2002-03-01 12:04 ` Boyd Roberts
2002-04-27 16:35 ` [9fans] Fourth Release of Plan 9 Now Available rob pike, esq.
2002-04-27 18:24 ` Scott Schwartz
2002-04-27 22:14 ` Laura Creighton
2002-04-29 9:37 ` Andrew
2002-06-28 16:49 ` [9fans] dumb question rob pike, esq.
2002-06-29 2:23 ` Scott Schwartz
2000-09-07 21:57 [9fans] new versions of graphics programs? rob pike
2000-09-07 22:50 ` Jim Choate
[not found] ` <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
2000-09-07 22:35 ` Tom Duff
2000-09-07 23:24 ` Jim Choate
2000-09-08 15:28 ` please_no_spam_to_
[not found] ` <D.M.Pick@qmw.ac.uk>
2000-09-08 16:43 ` Tom Duff
2001-05-19 8:29 Re[2]: [9fans] home, end ^h^j^k^l Russ Cox
2001-05-19 8:44 ` Re[4]: " Matt H
2001-05-19 8:48 Russ Cox
2001-05-19 20:28 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-19 9:17 forsyth
2001-05-19 15:39 rob pike
2001-05-19 17:07 Re[2]: " Quinn Dunkan
2001-05-19 16:00 ` Re[4]: " Matt H
2001-05-19 20:46 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-09 17:22 [9fans] could those of you who have students check this out for forsyth
2001-06-09 18:50 ` [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science andrey mirtchovski
2001-06-09 17:56 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-11 8:27 ` pac
2001-06-11 15:19 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-11 21:43 ` Boyd Roberts
[not found] ` <0cb501c0f2bf$97cacea0$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
2001-06-11 22:43 ` paurea
2001-06-12 14:18 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-12 15:50 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 18:48 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-12 0:09 ` Scott Merrilees
2001-06-12 0:16 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 0:42 ` Scott Merrilees
2001-06-12 1:08 ` Boyd Roberts
[not found] ` <0cc301c0f2c0$78949560$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
2001-06-12 14:12 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-16 23:34 ` Matt
2001-06-28 21:29 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-28 22:03 ` Matt
2001-06-28 23:20 ` George Michaelson
2001-06-29 21:27 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-07-18 15:49 ` Ralph Corderoy
2001-06-29 4:30 ` Lucio De Re
[not found] <vikki@proweb.co.uk>
2001-06-10 17:32 ` [9fans] string to list? vikki
2001-06-10 17:47 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-10 17:55 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-10 18:03 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-06-10 21:48 ` Matt
2001-06-10 22:24 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-06-10 22:30 ` Boyd Roberts
[not found] <matt@proweb.co.uk>
2001-06-12 0:39 ` [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out Matt
2001-06-12 0:55 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-06-12 1:12 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 1:00 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 1:30 ` Jonathan Sergent
2001-06-15 8:27 ` Hermann Samso
2001-06-15 11:53 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-15 12:18 ` Matt
2001-06-15 14:01 ` Matt
2001-06-15 14:25 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-26 16:33 [9fans] bitsy question John Packer
2001-06-26 17:10 ` [9fans] " Dan Cross
2001-06-26 19:51 ` John Packer
2001-06-26 20:34 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-29 22:32 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-27 1:15 ` [9fans] Two cpu servers? Ish Rattan
2001-06-26 20:09 ` [9fans] Re: bitsy question John Packer
2001-06-26 20:36 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-26 20:18 ` Latchesar Ionkov
2001-06-26 20:28 ` Matt
2001-06-26 22:13 ` Steve Kilbane
2001-07-12 8:42 [9fans] architectures forsyth
2001-07-12 13:56 ` Laura Creighton
2001-07-12 16:13 ` Ozan Yigit
2001-07-12 16:33 ` Matt
2001-07-12 18:12 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-07-12 18:16 ` Martin Harriss
2001-07-12 18:43 ` Dan Cross
2001-07-13 14:52 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-07-13 15:13 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-10-25 17:55 [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9 Russ Cox
2001-10-25 18:29 ` William Josephson
2001-10-26 8:09 ` [9fans] acme bug/annoyance? Matt
2001-10-26 11:36 ` rob pike
2001-10-26 14:43 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-10-29 10:16 ` [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9 John S. Dyson
2002-01-20 20:02 [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help Roshan James
2002-01-20 21:01 ` Matt H
2002-01-20 22:02 ` Scott Schwartz
2002-01-22 9:54 ` ozan s yigit
2002-01-23 10:05 ` Bakul Shah
2002-01-21 10:22 ` Boyd Roberts
2002-01-21 10:40 ` John Murdie
2002-01-20 21:03 ` William S.
2002-01-20 21:34 ` William Josephson
2002-01-21 6:53 ` cej
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