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From: Randolph Fritz <randolph@panix.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] User Interface
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:57:39 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <slrn9nuean.hkr.randolph@panix2.panix.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20010814125559.826F319A3E@mail.cse.psu.edu>

In article <20010814125559.826F319A3E@mail.cse.psu.edu>, rob pike wrote:
>> The editors, sam and acme are virtually unusable.
> 
> Many people disagree, even feel the opposite, that they are among
> the easiest-to-use editors around.
> 
>> Why is it that such a simple task as editing the contents of a textfile 
>> must cause so much pain?
> 
> I don't hear many yelps where I work and essentially everyone uses
> either sam or acme.  I suspect you don't know how to use them.
> 
> A criticism I will accept is that there is inadequate documentation
> explaining how to use them well.  Try reading the associated papers,
> rather than just the man pages.  They help somewhat.
> 

I think a key point has been hit, albeit glancingly: computer
scientists are willing to study a system before using it; most
people--including most software professionals, these days--are not.

The original usability goal of the Mac was 30 minutes from a newbie
sitting down to beginner-level productivity.  (Without, I think,
reference to any manuals, though with quite a lot of text on-screen.)
A much gentler learning curve, yes?

Now there is no requirement that Plan 9 be accessible without
extensive study.  However, I suspect there are good reasons to look at
these issues more closely.  If nothing else, it seems to me there are
interesting design process issues in the area, and working on it might
open up interesting research topics.  I've seen a lot of sneering at
the Mac, but, still--30 minutes to usability?  That's an impressive
design achievement, and it surprises me it doesn't engender more
respect and emulation.

It also seems to me that aiming at a gentler learning curve for
software developers might attract a broader group of software
researchers to Plan 9 and--forgive me if I have this wrong--isn't that
one of the reasons Plan 9 is being published on the internet with
source code?

It would be an interesting research topic for someone who wasn't
busily studying architecture and building science... :-)

Randolph


  parent reply	other threads:[~2001-08-20  8:57 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 204+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2000-08-18 15:34 [9fans] Re: Solaris thread scheaduling rob pike
     [not found] ` <rob@plan9.bell-labs.com>
2000-08-02 14:48   ` [9fans] pipefile rob pike
2000-08-02 15:49     ` James A. Robinson
2000-08-18 20:25   ` [9fans] Re: Solaris thread scheaduling Tom Duff
2000-09-06 21:59   ` [9fans] Reliable Cray Y-MP C90 Supercomputer rob pike
2000-09-06 22:02     ` James A. Robinson
2000-09-06 22:14       ` Boyd Roberts
2000-09-06 22:11     ` Boyd Roberts
2000-09-07 22:18   ` [9fans] new versions of graphics programs? Tom Duff
2000-11-01 22:23   ` [9fans] /n/smtp rob pike
2000-11-01 22:38     ` Scott Schwartz
2000-11-24  0:41   ` [9fans] Crazy idea... or a new project? rob pike
2000-11-24  0:48     ` Boyd Roberts
2000-11-24 22:13     ` Scott Schwartz
2000-11-24 22:24       ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-06 17:11   ` [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support rob pike
2001-02-06 19:10     ` Scott Schwartz
2001-02-06 19:23     ` Dan Cross
2001-02-07 15:23   ` [9fans] 9p2k, fsync rob pike
2001-02-07 18:42     ` Scott Schwartz
2001-02-08  1:19     ` Dan Cross
2001-02-08  9:43       ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-02-14 13:51   ` [9fans] isatty rob pike
2001-02-14 16:42     ` Scott Schwartz
2001-03-26 14:12   ` [9fans] sam mod for delete-forward rob pike
2001-03-26 15:37     ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-03-27  8:25       ` Boyd Roberts
2001-03-27 14:01         ` Sam
2001-03-27 16:51           ` Dan Cross
2001-03-28  8:37             ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-03-29  8:26               ` Boyd Roberts
2001-03-26 15:42     ` Scott Schwartz
2001-05-10 14:59   ` [9fans] snprint(), getfields() specification rob pike
2001-05-10 16:42     ` Scott Schwartz
2001-05-10 18:13     ` Steve Kilbane
2001-05-10 21:38       ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-11  6:51         ` Steve Kilbane
2001-05-19 14:14   ` Re[4]: [9fans] home, end ^h^j^k^l rob pike
2001-05-19 14:26     ` Re[6]: " Matt H
2001-05-19 22:45       ` [9fans] ls -m Scott Schwartz
2001-05-19 22:50         ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-19 15:35     ` Re[4]: [9fans] home, end ^h^j^k^l James A. Robinson
2001-05-19 20:36     ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-19 23:30     ` Richard Elberger
2001-05-20  2:37     ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20  7:03     ` Lucio De Re
2001-05-20 11:16     ` paurea
2001-05-20 13:11       ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20 13:04     ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-23  8:24     ` Randolph Fritz
2001-05-23  8:46       ` Re[6]: " Matt H
2001-05-23  9:04         ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20  0:16   ` [9fans] ls -m rob pike
2001-05-20  0:31     ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20  1:38     ` [9fans] mouse vs key Scott Schwartz
2001-05-20  6:29       ` Dan Cross
2001-05-20  8:09       ` Matt H
2001-05-20 11:35         ` Re[2]: [9fans] mouse vs key - nethack matt
2001-05-20 13:13           ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20 12:50         ` [9fans] mouse vs key Boyd Roberts
2001-05-29  4:27   ` [9fans] src vs db rob pike
2001-05-29  4:37     ` Scott Schwartz
2001-07-11 19:22   ` [9fans] sam vs acme rob pike
2001-07-11 20:08     ` James A. Robinson
2001-08-14 12:54   ` [9fans] User Interface rob pike
2001-08-14 15:01     ` James A. Robinson
2001-08-16 13:45     ` phaet0n
2001-08-20  8:57     ` Randolph Fritz [this message]
2001-12-02  3:10   ` [9fans] plumb rob pike
2001-12-02  3:31     ` Scott Schwartz
2002-01-30  5:52   ` [9fans] venti rob pike
2002-01-30  6:23     ` George Michaelson
2002-01-30  8:07     ` paurea
2002-01-30 11:17     ` Boyd Roberts
2002-03-01  6:20   ` Fwd: Re: [9fans] samuel (fwd) rob pike
2002-03-01  6:34     ` George Michaelson
2002-03-01 12:04     ` Boyd Roberts
2002-04-27 16:35   ` [9fans] Fourth Release of Plan 9 Now Available rob pike, esq.
2002-04-27 18:24     ` Scott Schwartz
2002-04-27 22:14     ` Laura Creighton
2002-04-29  9:37     ` Andrew
2002-06-28 16:49   ` [9fans] dumb question rob pike, esq.
2002-06-29  2:23     ` Scott Schwartz
2000-09-07 21:57 [9fans] new versions of graphics programs? rob pike
2000-09-07 22:50 ` Jim Choate
     [not found]   ` <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
2000-09-07 22:35     ` Tom Duff
2000-09-07 23:24       ` Jim Choate
2000-09-08 15:28         ` please_no_spam_to_
     [not found]           ` <D.M.Pick@qmw.ac.uk>
2000-09-08 16:43             ` Tom Duff
2001-06-09 17:22 [9fans] could those of you who have students check this out for forsyth
2001-06-09 18:50 ` [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science andrey mirtchovski
2001-06-09 17:56   ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-11  8:27     ` pac
2001-06-11 15:19     ` Dan Cross
2001-06-11 21:43       ` Boyd Roberts
     [not found]       ` <0cb501c0f2bf$97cacea0$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
2001-06-11 22:43         ` paurea
2001-06-12 14:18           ` Dan Cross
2001-06-12 15:50             ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 18:48               ` Dan Cross
2001-06-12  0:09   ` Scott Merrilees
2001-06-12  0:16     ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12  0:42       ` Scott Merrilees
2001-06-12  1:08         ` Boyd Roberts
     [not found]   ` <0cc301c0f2c0$78949560$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
2001-06-12 14:12     ` Dan Cross
2001-06-16 23:34   ` Matt
2001-06-28 21:29     ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-28 22:03       ` Matt
2001-06-28 23:20         ` George Michaelson
2001-06-29 21:27           ` Boyd Roberts
2001-07-18 15:49           ` Ralph Corderoy
2001-06-29  4:30         ` Lucio De Re
     [not found] <vikki@proweb.co.uk>
2001-06-10 17:32 ` [9fans] string to list? vikki
2001-06-10 17:47   ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-10 17:55   ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-10 18:03   ` Scott Schwartz
2001-06-10 21:48     ` Matt
2001-06-10 22:24       ` Scott Schwartz
2001-06-10 22:30         ` Boyd Roberts
     [not found] <matt@proweb.co.uk>
2001-06-12  0:39 ` [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out Matt
2001-06-12  0:55   ` Scott Schwartz
2001-06-12  1:12     ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12  1:00   ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12  1:30     ` Jonathan Sergent
2001-06-15  8:27     ` Hermann Samso
2001-06-15 11:53       ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-15 12:18         ` Matt
2001-06-15 14:01         ` Matt
2001-06-15 14:25           ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-26 16:33 [9fans] bitsy question John Packer
2001-06-26 17:10 ` [9fans] " Dan Cross
2001-06-26 19:51   ` John Packer
2001-06-26 20:34     ` Dan Cross
2001-06-29 22:32       ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-27  1:15     ` [9fans] Two cpu servers? Ish Rattan
2001-06-26 20:09   ` [9fans] Re: bitsy question John Packer
2001-06-26 20:36     ` Dan Cross
2001-06-26 20:18   ` Latchesar Ionkov
2001-06-26 20:28     ` Matt
2001-06-26 22:13       ` Steve Kilbane
2001-07-12  8:42 [9fans] architectures forsyth
2001-07-12 13:56 ` Laura Creighton
2001-07-12 16:13 ` Ozan Yigit
2001-07-12 16:33   ` Matt
2001-07-12 18:12     ` Scott Schwartz
2001-07-12 18:16       ` Martin Harriss
2001-07-12 18:43       ` Dan Cross
2001-07-13 14:52         ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-07-13 15:13           ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-14  9:46 [9fans] User Interface Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-14 13:15 ` John Murdie
2001-08-15 13:23 ` William K. Josephson
2001-08-16 21:04 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-14 10:02 nigel
2001-08-14 10:27 ` Lucio De Re
2001-08-14 12:45   ` pac
2001-08-15  8:34     ` Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-16  0:59       ` Micah Stetson
2001-08-15 23:25         ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-16  8:28       ` Douglas A. Gwyn
     [not found]     ` <200108151619.MAA07420@augusta.math.psu.edu>
2001-08-16  8:28       ` Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-16 10:26         ` Re[2]: " Matt
2001-08-16 10:43           ` Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-16 19:29         ` Steve Kilbane
2001-08-16 20:40           ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-17  8:50           ` mark powers
2001-08-17  8:49         ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-08-14 16:53 forsyth
2001-08-14 17:13 anothy
2001-08-15 17:06 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-14 17:58 bwc
2001-08-14 19:09 ` andrey mirtchovski
2001-08-15 12:46 rob pike
2001-08-15 16:35 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-15 13:27 Peter Bosch
2001-08-15 14:20 bwc
2001-08-15 17:13 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-16  1:00 okamoto
2001-08-16  5:56 ` Fariborz 'Skip' Tavakkolian
2001-08-17 11:17 forsyth
2001-08-20 15:02 Re[2]: " anothy
2001-08-22 21:25 ` Matthew Hannigan
2001-08-23  2:24   ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-23 15:04     ` Dan Cross
2001-08-23 20:17       ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-23 20:17       ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-23 21:35         ` Dan Cross
2001-08-23 21:49           ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-24 13:04         ` David Lukes
2001-08-23 20:17       ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-23 15:35 Vincent van Gelderen
2001-10-25 17:55 [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9 Russ Cox
2001-10-25 18:29 ` William Josephson
2001-10-26  8:09   ` [9fans] acme bug/annoyance? Matt
2001-10-26 11:36     ` rob pike
2001-10-26 14:43       ` Scott Schwartz
2001-10-29 10:16   ` [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9 John S. Dyson
2002-01-20 20:02 [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help Roshan James
2002-01-20 21:01 ` Matt H
2002-01-20 22:02   ` Scott Schwartz
2002-01-22  9:54     ` ozan s yigit
2002-01-23 10:05       ` Bakul Shah
2002-01-21 10:22   ` Boyd Roberts
2002-01-21 10:40     ` John Murdie
2002-01-20 21:03 ` William S.
2002-01-20 21:34 ` William Josephson
2002-01-21  6:53 ` cej

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