[9front] Questions about community dynamics

[9front] Questions about community dynamics

[ieliedonge]

How do things generally get decided around here: e.g. patches merged, meetings
planned, etc?

I'm mostly just trying to get a feel for the de facto social dynamics here.
After lurking on the mailing list for a while, there are obviously a lot of
highly intelligent, curious, and thoughtful people. At the same time, I also
see some of loud voices that drown out the former.

Is there any kind of facilitation that goes on in the background?

Personally, I don't have the time or energy to deal with highly combatant
collaborators and am pretty sure I'm not alone in that sentiment. We get enough
of that kind of thing at work! :P

I really like playing around with Plan 9 and would be sad if the community
really is as unwelcoming as has felt so far on the mailing list. The ML is
obviously a particular cross-section, so maybe I'm just misreading the room?

Anyway, happy hacking!

Re: [9front] Questions about community dynamics

[hiro]

the loudest voice is called a patch

On 9/24/23, ieliedonge@wilsonb.com <ieliedonge@wilsonb.com> wrote:
> How do things generally get decided around here: e.g. patches merged,
> meetings
> planned, etc?
>
> I'm mostly just trying to get a feel for the de facto social dynamics here.
> After lurking on the mailing list for a while, there are obviously a lot of
> highly intelligent, curious, and thoughtful people. At the same time, I
> also
> see some of loud voices that drown out the former.
>
> Is there any kind of facilitation that goes on in the background?
>
> Personally, I don't have the time or energy to deal with highly combatant
> collaborators and am pretty sure I'm not alone in that sentiment. We get
> enough
> of that kind of thing at work! :P
>
> I really like playing around with Plan 9 and would be sad if the community
> really is as unwelcoming as has felt so far on the mailing list. The ML is
> obviously a particular cross-section, so maybe I'm just misreading the
> room?
>
> Anyway, happy hacking!
>

Re: [9front] Questions about community dynamics

[Jacob Moody]

On 9/23/23 17:53, ieliedonge@wilsonb.com wrote:
> How do things generally get decided around here: e.g. patches merged, meetings
> planned, etc?
> 
> I'm mostly just trying to get a feel for the de facto social dynamics here.
> After lurking on the mailing list for a while, there are obviously a lot of
> highly intelligent, curious, and thoughtful people. At the same time, I also
> see some of loud voices that drown out the former.
> 
> Is there any kind of facilitation that goes on in the background?

Can you expand on what you mean by this?

> 
> Personally, I don't have the time or energy to deal with highly combatant
> collaborators and am pretty sure I'm not alone in that sentiment. We get enough
> of that kind of thing at work! :P
> 
> I really like playing around with Plan 9 and would be sad if the community
> really is as unwelcoming as has felt so far on the mailing list. The ML is
> obviously a particular cross-section, so maybe I'm just misreading the room?
> 
> Anyway, happy hacking!

Re: [9front] Questions about community dynamics

[ieliedonge]

Jacob Moody <moody@posixcafe.org> wrote:
> On 9/23/23 17:53, ieliedonge@wilsonb.com wrote:
> > How do things generally get decided around here: e.g. patches merged, meetings
> > planned, etc?
> > 
> > I'm mostly just trying to get a feel for the de facto social dynamics here.
> > After lurking on the mailing list for a while, there are obviously a lot of
> > highly intelligent, curious, and thoughtful people. At the same time, I also
> > see some of loud voices that drown out the former.
> > 
> > Is there any kind of facilitation that goes on in the background?
> 
> Can you expand on what you mean by this?

Sure. Mainly, I am just aware that a mailing list potentially captures only a
tiny slice of a community's communications. I am wondering about the holistic
dynamics here, both explicit and implicit.

For example, some communities operate in a somewhat laissez faire manner,
letting whatever happens happens. Other communities have explicit moderation.
Others still have strong enough rapport that people just naturally get led into
cooperative, helpful communication over time.

An element of the question is me wondering what 9front's values are. I see a
problem with the habits of some on this mailing list but maybe that's just my
uncalibrated view as an outsider.

It's probably obvious that I'm also thinking about the recent discussion around
a sed patch. As an onlooker, I see a few people giving a thumbs up and one
loud, aggressive voice simply yelling that it's a worthless patch, without
articulating anything helpful. As someone who'd like to eventually contribute,
that kind of thing is pretty discouraging.

So my meaning of "facilitation" here is asking both whether such
a sentiment is part of the 9front community and if so whether there is any kind
of mechanism to make things more welcoming.

> 
> > 
> > Personally, I don't have the time or energy to deal with highly combatant
> > collaborators and am pretty sure I'm not alone in that sentiment. We get enough
> > of that kind of thing at work! :P
> > 
> > I really like playing around with Plan 9 and would be sad if the community
> > really is as unwelcoming as has felt so far on the mailing list. The ML is
> > obviously a particular cross-section, so maybe I'm just misreading the room?
> > 
> > Anyway, happy hacking!

Re: [9front] Questions about community dynamics

[sl]

it sounds like you're asking for permission to be nice.

sl

Re: [9front] Questions about community dynamics

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sun, Sep 24, 2023 at 09:02:39AM +0900, ieliedonge@wilsonb.com wrote:
> For example, some communities operate in a somewhat laissez faire manner,
> letting whatever happens happens. Other communities have explicit moderation.
> Others still have strong enough rapport that people just naturally get led into
> cooperative, helpful communication over time.

9front is far from one community.  

There's the irc channel #cat-v, which has its roots in contrarian idiocy
and people being mean to each other.  In #cat-v, we ban people for
belligerent ignorance, help-vampirism, and bigotry.  There are five 
people who can moderate that channel.  Most of them write most of the 
code in 9front.  The other one is me, a historical accident nobody's 
corrected yet.  I expect to be first against the wall when the
revolution comes.

Then there's this mailing list.  It's run by sl and I won't put words in
his mouth about how he chooses to run it.  sl also runs the 9front.org
website.  

There's a 9front community on gridchat who prefer it as a chat medium to
the hellhole #cat-v.  There's another one on discord.  There are
probably others.  Some of them run their own websites and knowledge
resources, like wiki.a-b.xyz.  These communities are run by other people
according to their own priorities.  

Most people who use 9front dip a toe in many of these options and wind
up gravitating towards a couple of them.  #cat-v and this mailing list
are the oldest, but that doesn't make them the correctest.  That
decision is up to each user to make for themselves.  They're all valid
communities worth participating in.

Getting your code in the tree just requires consent from anyone with
commit access to the repository.  Ori and sl manage those resources.
Getting commit access yourself is just as easy; I'm not aware of anyone
who asked for it having been turned away.  That doesn't mean it's
impossible, it just means the people who have asked have generally had
code to contribute.

> An element of the question is me wondering what 9front's values are. I see a
> problem with the habits of some on this mailing list but maybe that's just my
> uncalibrated view as an outsider.

9front is an operating system; it cannot have values.  Each community of
9front developers and users develops their own set of values.  I can
only really speak for #cat-v, because it's the only one I have any
moderation powers in.  I focus on banning hate speech advocates and
tire-kickers who make unreasonable demands on other people's time
without attempting to develop investigative skills of their own.  Other
than that it's basically anarchy.

> It's probably obvious that I'm also thinking about the recent discussion around
> a sed patch. As an onlooker, I see a few people giving a thumbs up and one
> loud, aggressive voice simply yelling that it's a worthless patch, without
> articulating anything helpful. As someone who'd like to eventually contribute,
> that kind of thing is pretty discouraging.

I find computers in general discouraging.  Learning when to ignore hiro
and when to listen to him is advanced black magic that can only come
from years of experience.  It's the same way with unix.

> So my meaning of "facilitation" here is asking both whether such
> a sentiment is part of the 9front community and if so whether there is any kind
> of mechanism to make things more welcoming.

As you can probably predict by now, this all depends on which 9front
community you're trying to participate in.  In the short term, I
recommend not taking it personally when someone freaks out about a
patch.  In the old days, pre-9front, the process was to submit a patch
and then get ignored for years.  Arguably, the whining is an
improvement.  If you don't want the peanut gallery, you can always email
some developers privately.

As for this particular patch, I'm ambivalent, but unix compatibility has
not in the past been a high priority, because plan 9 is not unix.  Maybe
this patch belong's in ape's sed.  I don't remember whether someone
investigated whether ape's sed has the same behavior as plan 9 sed?

Thanks for doing the work, whatever the results.

khm

Re: [9front] Questions about community dynamics

[ieliedonge]

Kurt,

Thank you for the thorough response. Point taken about there not being a single
community and that devs just kind of loosely operate on the honor system around
here.

I'll take your hints and poke around in other communities as well to find some
comfy place.

> I find computers in general discouraging.

You sure do make up for it with encouraging feedback. Much appreciated.

- B. Wilson

Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 24, 2023 at 09:02:39AM +0900, ieliedonge@wilsonb.com wrote:
> > For example, some communities operate in a somewhat laissez faire manner,
> > letting whatever happens happens. Other communities have explicit moderation.
> > Others still have strong enough rapport that people just naturally get led into
> > cooperative, helpful communication over time.
> 
> 9front is far from one community.  
> 
> There's the irc channel #cat-v, which has its roots in contrarian idiocy
> and people being mean to each other.  In #cat-v, we ban people for
> belligerent ignorance, help-vampirism, and bigotry.  There are five 
> people who can moderate that channel.  Most of them write most of the 
> code in 9front.  The other one is me, a historical accident nobody's 
> corrected yet.  I expect to be first against the wall when the
> revolution comes.
> 
> Then there's this mailing list.  It's run by sl and I won't put words in
> his mouth about how he chooses to run it.  sl also runs the 9front.org
> website.  
> 
> There's a 9front community on gridchat who prefer it as a chat medium to
> the hellhole #cat-v.  There's another one on discord.  There are
> probably others.  Some of them run their own websites and knowledge
> resources, like wiki.a-b.xyz.  These communities are run by other people
> according to their own priorities.  
> 
> Most people who use 9front dip a toe in many of these options and wind
> up gravitating towards a couple of them.  #cat-v and this mailing list
> are the oldest, but that doesn't make them the correctest.  That
> decision is up to each user to make for themselves.  They're all valid
> communities worth participating in.
> 
> Getting your code in the tree just requires consent from anyone with
> commit access to the repository.  Ori and sl manage those resources.
> Getting commit access yourself is just as easy; I'm not aware of anyone
> who asked for it having been turned away.  That doesn't mean it's
> impossible, it just means the people who have asked have generally had
> code to contribute.
> 
> > An element of the question is me wondering what 9front's values are. I see a
> > problem with the habits of some on this mailing list but maybe that's just my
> > uncalibrated view as an outsider.
> 
> 9front is an operating system; it cannot have values.  Each community of
> 9front developers and users develops their own set of values.  I can
> only really speak for #cat-v, because it's the only one I have any
> moderation powers in.  I focus on banning hate speech advocates and
> tire-kickers who make unreasonable demands on other people's time
> without attempting to develop investigative skills of their own.  Other
> than that it's basically anarchy.
> 
> > It's probably obvious that I'm also thinking about the recent discussion around
> > a sed patch. As an onlooker, I see a few people giving a thumbs up and one
> > loud, aggressive voice simply yelling that it's a worthless patch, without
> > articulating anything helpful. As someone who'd like to eventually contribute,
> > that kind of thing is pretty discouraging.
> 
> I find computers in general discouraging.  Learning when to ignore hiro
> and when to listen to him is advanced black magic that can only come
> from years of experience.  It's the same way with unix.
> 
> > So my meaning of "facilitation" here is asking both whether such
> > a sentiment is part of the 9front community and if so whether there is any kind
> > of mechanism to make things more welcoming.
> 
> As you can probably predict by now, this all depends on which 9front
> community you're trying to participate in.  In the short term, I
> recommend not taking it personally when someone freaks out about a
> patch.  In the old days, pre-9front, the process was to submit a patch
> and then get ignored for years.  Arguably, the whining is an
> improvement.  If you don't want the peanut gallery, you can always email
> some developers privately.
> 
> As for this particular patch, I'm ambivalent, but unix compatibility has
> not in the past been a high priority, because plan 9 is not unix.  Maybe
> this patch belong's in ape's sed.  I don't remember whether someone
> investigated whether ape's sed has the same behavior as plan 9 sed?
> 
> Thanks for doing the work, whatever the results.
> 
> khm

Re: [9front] Questions about community dynamics

[ori]

Quoth ieliedonge@wilsonb.com:
> How do things generally get decided around here: e.g. patches merged, meetings
> planned, etc?

Someone decides they want to do something. They do it.

To commit, either run git/push or find someone that
can. If uncertain about committing, ask for feedback.
As a rule of thumb, talking about designs is a good idea.
Getting some miles on big changes before committing is
another.

There's no formal process. Use your judgement.

Re: [9front] Questions about community dynamics

[ori]

Quoth ori@eigenstate.org:
> Quoth ieliedonge@wilsonb.com:
> > How do things generally get decided around here: e.g. patches merged, meetings
> > planned, etc?
> 
> Someone decides they want to do something. They do it.
> 
> To commit, either run git/push or find someone that
> can. If uncertain about committing, ask for feedback.
> As a rule of thumb, talking about designs is a good idea.
> Getting some miles on big changes before committing is
> another.
> 
> There's no formal process. Use your judgement.
> 

this also goes for meetings and hackathons; someone says
"hey, want to hang out?" or "hey, want to talk about X?",
and drops a link to a jitsi; we hang out on the jitsi a
while, people come and go.

hackathons are a bit more involved, since you actually
need a space and people travel, but the principle is the
same -- "hey, I want a hackathon, who's in?", and then
stepping up to make it happen.

This is a hobby project.