[COFF] [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History

[COFF] [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History

[dave]

On Mon, 28 Oct 2019, Steve Nickolas wrote:

> 86-DOS actually did use ":" as a prompt character.  This was changed for 
> IBM's release, for some clone releases, and for MS-DOS 2.0.

The best I've ever seen was RT-11's "." - talk about minimalist...

Actually this thread probably belongs on COFF by now.

-- Dave

[COFF] Comparative promptology

[lars]

Dave Horsfall wrote:
> Steve Nickolas wrote:
>> 86-DOS actually did use ":" as a prompt character.
> The best I've ever seen was RT-11's "." - talk about minimalist...
>
> Actually this thread probably belongs on COFF by now.

I was bound to happen.  List all the prompts!

"*" seems popular on PDP-10s.

[COFF] Comparative promptology

[imp]

On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 1:51 PM Lars Brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org> wrote:

> Dave Horsfall wrote:
> > Steve Nickolas wrote:
> >> 86-DOS actually did use ":" as a prompt character.
> > The best I've ever seen was RT-11's "." - talk about minimalist...
> >
> > Actually this thread probably belongs on COFF by now.
>
> I was bound to happen.  List all the prompts!
>
> "*" seems popular on PDP-10s.
>

"@  " was the TOPS-20 prompt.
"$ " was the VMS prompt
RSTS/E was just "Ready\n"

But none of these get us closer to CP/M's > prompt.

Warner
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20191028/1caced33/attachment.html>

[COFF] Comparative promptology

[jpl.jpl]

A bit off-off-topic, but as I mentioned elsewhere, I was lucky enough to
have one of the (if not *the*) first CRT terminals in the Labs. It was an
HP 264?, and it supported scrolling back to stored lines, and re-entering
them. I quickly settled in on a prompt that ended with "@", the default
"line kill", so whatever came before was ignored, and only the command that
followed was effectively re-entered. Quaint that "@" was a seldom-seen
character then.

I now have a prompt that ends with a newline. Still convenient for
copy/paste. The prompt itself has colors, separating host name from current
directory. This makes it easy to spot non-prompt line in the command line
history, and to determine which host I am connected to in that window, and
where I am on that host.


On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 3:57 PM Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 1:51 PM Lars Brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org> wrote:
>
>> Dave Horsfall wrote:
>> > Steve Nickolas wrote:
>> >> 86-DOS actually did use ":" as a prompt character.
>> > The best I've ever seen was RT-11's "." - talk about minimalist...
>> >
>> > Actually this thread probably belongs on COFF by now.
>>
>> I was bound to happen.  List all the prompts!
>>
>> "*" seems popular on PDP-10s.
>>
>
> "@  " was the TOPS-20 prompt.
> "$ " was the VMS prompt
> RSTS/E was just "Ready\n"
>
> But none of these get us closer to CP/M's > prompt.
>
> Warner
> _______________________________________________
> COFF mailing list
> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20191028/c8ab0dc5/attachment.html>

[COFF] [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History

[paul.winalski]

On 10/28/19, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2019, Steve Nickolas wrote:
>
>> 86-DOS actually did use ":" as a prompt character.  This was changed for
>> IBM's release, for some clone releases, and for MS-DOS 2.0.
>
> The best I've ever seen was RT-11's "." - talk about minimalist...
>
> Actually this thread probably belongs on COFF by now.

RT-11 was following standard DEC practice by using "." as its command
prompt.  The "monitor dot" was the command prompt in both TOPS-10 and
TOPS-20.

Most DEC operating systems, including RT-11, TOPS-10/20, and VMS, used
"/" as a prefix on command options; "-" performs this function on UNIX
since "/" is the directory delimiter.  Back in the days of stand-alone
programs, physical switches on the console were used to set program
options.  This of course won't work when you have multiprogramming.  I
was told that DEC chose "/" because it looks like a toggle switch.
Command options in fact were initially called "switches".

-Paul W.

[COFF] Comparative promptology

[krewat]

Sorry, sent a picture along with this, but it got rejected because it 
was too big ;)

> On 10/28/2019 3:10 PM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
>> I was bound to happen. List all the prompts!
>> "*" seems popular on PDP-10s.
>
> Que? The only PDP-10 prompt that matters is "."
>
> The other less-desired (by me) is @
>
> art k.

[COFF] [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History

[krewat]

On 10/28/2019 4:43 PM, Paul Winalski wrote:
> RT-11 was following standard DEC practice by using "." as its command
> prompt.  The "monitor dot" was the command prompt in both TOPS-10 and
> TOPS-20.

In my many accesses of TOPS-20 systems back in the day, thanks to the 
ARPANET, I am reasonably certain I never EVER once saw a TOPS-20 system 
with a "." prompt.

art k.

[COFF] Comparative promptology

[lars]

Arthur Krewat wrote:
>> "*" seems popular on PDP-10s.
> Que? The only PDP-10 prompt that matters is "."

I mean programs like MACRO, LINK, etc.

[COFF] Comparative promptology

[skogtun]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 125 bytes --]

Warner Losh [28.10.2019 20:57]:

> "@  " was the TOPS-20 prompt.

Also the Sintran (Norsk Data) prompt.
-- 
Hilsen Harald

[COFF] Comparative promptology

[skogtun]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 222 bytes --]

Harald Arnesen [29.10.2019 11:30]:
> Warner Losh [28.10.2019 20:57]:
> 
>> "@  " was the TOPS-20 prompt.
> 
> Also the Sintran (Norsk Data) prompt.

btw, we used to call it "grisehale" ("pig's tail").
-- 
Hilsen Harald

[COFF] Comparative promptology

[@ 2019-10-29 19:57 UTC (permalink / raw)]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 588 bytes --]

On 28 Oct 2019 13:57 -0600, from imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh):
> "@  " was the TOPS-20 prompt.
> "$ " was the VMS prompt
> RSTS/E was just "Ready\n"
> 
> But none of these get us closer to CP/M's > prompt.

For micros, the Apple II used "]", didn't it?

That's not exactly a ">" either, but it's somewhat period- and system
size-appropriate for early CP/M.

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael at kjorling.se
  “The most dangerous thought that you can have as a creative person
              is to think you know what you’re doing.” (Bret Victor)

[COFF] Comparative promptology

[lars]

Warner Losh wrote:
> But none of these get us closer to CP/M's > prompt.

To me > suggests an arrow indicating "enter your input here".  Pure
speculation of course.

Interestingly, some ITS programs does the exact opposite.  They use the
1963 ASCII character "left arrow" as a prompt.  (Today it just outputs
as an underscore but printed texts and screenshots show that the 1963
character set was in use.)

[COFF] Comparative promptology

[tih]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1152 bytes --]

Harald Arnesen <skogtun at gmail.com> writes:

> Harald Arnesen [29.10.2019 11:30]:
>> Warner Losh [28.10.2019 20:57]:
>> 
>>> "@  " was the TOPS-20 prompt.
>> 
>> Also the Sintran (Norsk Data) prompt.
>
> btw, we used to call it "grisehale" ("pig's tail").

Not at the Norwegian Institute of Technology (now part of the Norwegian
University of Technology and Science).  There, it was called "nabla",
because of the EXEC 8 operating system on UNIVAC mainframes, which used
the FIELDATA character set, and where the "Master Space" character,
(visually represented by nabla, which looks like an upside-down capital
delta: '∇' if what you're reading this text on supports Unicode) was
used as a prefix character indicating an operating system command.  It
was mapped to ASCII 64 externally, a natural choice, because FIELDATA
had no @, ASCII had no nabla -- and Master Space was encoded as decimal
64 in FIELDATA already.

The name stuck, and @ kept being called nabla at least until 1990.

-tih
-- 
Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the significance
of Lisp.  Lisp is the most important idea in computer science.  --Alan Kay

[COFF] Fieldata characters (was: Comparative promptology)

[grog]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1994 bytes --]

On Wednesday, 30 October 2019 at  9:19:20 +0100, COFF wrote:
> Harald Arnesen <skogtun at gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Harald Arnesen [29.10.2019 11:30]:
>>> Warner Losh [28.10.2019 20:57]:
>>>
>>>> "@  " was the TOPS-20 prompt.
>>>
>>> Also the Sintran (Norsk Data) prompt.
>>
>> btw, we used to call it "grisehale" ("pig's tail").
>
> Not at the Norwegian Institute of Technology (now part of the Norwegian
> University of Technology and Science).  There, it was called "nabla",
> because of the EXEC 8 operating system on UNIVAC mainframes, which used
> the FIELDATA character set, and where the "Master Space" character,
> (visually represented by nabla, which looks like an upside-down capital
> delta: '???' if what you're reading this text on supports Unicode) was
> used as a prefix character indicating an operating system command.

I worked for and with UNIVAC for most of the 1970s and early 1980s,
including on EXEC 8/OS 1100, and the master space (binary 0) was
always represented by @, on punched cards, printouts, terminals and
the documentation.  I've just confirmed with my copy of UP-4040,
dating from 1971.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fieldata#UNIVAC
agrees, though it notes:

   Sometimes switched with Δ

But that's a delta, not a nabla.  Fieldata also had a Δ (code 04), and
I have never seen this switch.

FWIW, this was in Germany, where we called the @ a „Klammeraffe“
(originally a spider monkey).  This wasn't limited to UNIVAC.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 163 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20191031/429d998a/attachment.sig>

[COFF] [TUHS] UNIX Backslash History

[gtaylor]

On 10/28/19 2:43 PM, Paul Winalski wrote:
rrrrrrrrrrr> Back in the days of stand-alone programs, physical switches 
on the
> console were used to set program options.

This helps explain why the option is called a "switch" in some OSs.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 4008 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20191030/717374ea/attachment.bin>