* [COFF] [TUHS] History of m6? [not found] ` <08b6c7ce02adabe45f54621c3cbe9863@firemail.de> @ 2019-11-13 14:17 ` clemc 2019-11-13 15:06 ` lars [not found] ` <7w8sokklwp.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: clemc @ 2019-11-13 14:17 UTC (permalink / raw) Moving to a COFF On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 4:16 AM Thomas Paulsen <thomas.paulsen at firemail.de> wrote: > 'T'was before my time, but the legend has it that the original BLISS-10 bootstrap > compiler was a set of TECO macros that Chuck Geschke (Adobe's > founder) wrote.' > Really? TECO = Tape Editor and Corrector TECO started as that for PDP-1 or maybe TX-1 (at MIT I believe). But over time, TECO became the primary text editor on the PDP-10's for many, many people in the ARPA community. I learned it as my second, PDP-10 text editor (I learned a line editor, who's name I forget, that was similar to the IBM's editor when I got my first PDP-10 account, but quickly moved to TECO). FWIW: The original EMACS was a set of TECO macros. The historical truth is that besides being the primary text editor, it was so rich in function that TECO became for the PDP-10 what Jon Bentley describes as a 'little language' and was used for all sorts of small hacks. The later Unix world created other tools, be it sed, later awk, and the like. But for the PDP-10 world, TECO very much that low level engine that a lot of people used. When BLISS was written, CMU did not have UNIX (and thus nor any of the UNIX tools - as I had a small hand in making UNIX happen @ CMU in the early 1970s). But when I arrived, the two PDP-10's (CMU-A and CMU-B) reigned supreme as primary CS (and EE) systems, along with the CMU hacked version of IBM's TSS running on the 360 for everyone else (and where I got my first real programming job), plus CMU's own TSS/8 on couple of PDP-8s that were scattered about. FWIW: Chuck used the PDP-10's for his work as a grad student. He also is famous for being the first PhD to produce his thesis on a 'laser printer', the CMU XGP (it was not a laser as today, it was modified FAX machine made by Xerox). The fun story is that CMU's administration would not accept his thesis originally because the library wanted the 'originals' to put in the archives. It took 6-9 months for his thesis advisor (Bill Wulf) to convince the library, that they had the originals. Anyway, the use of TECO in such a manner was very much the way things were done in those days, so the legend is very much possible. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20191113/9cfeab51/attachment.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* [COFF] [TUHS] History of m6? 2019-11-13 14:17 ` [COFF] [TUHS] History of m6? clemc @ 2019-11-13 15:06 ` lars 2019-11-13 15:32 ` clemc 2019-11-13 22:31 ` [COFF] TECO (was: History of m6?) grog 0 siblings, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: lars @ 2019-11-13 15:06 UTC (permalink / raw) Clem Cole wrote: > TECO started as that for PDP-1 or maybe TX-1 (at MIT I believe). But > over time, TECO became the primary text editor on the PDP-10's for > many, many people in the ARPA community. I think PDP-1. As far as I know, no surviving copy has emerged. Not even Dan Murphy has one. And not just the PDP-10. I think just about every DEC computer had a version of TECO, right? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* [COFF] [TUHS] History of m6? 2019-11-13 15:06 ` lars @ 2019-11-13 15:32 ` clemc 2019-11-13 22:31 ` [COFF] TECO (was: History of m6?) grog 1 sibling, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: clemc @ 2019-11-13 15:32 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1443 bytes --] On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:06 AM Lars Brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org> wrote: > > And not just the PDP-10. I think just about every DEC computer had a version > of TECO, right? > Very likely. There were a lot of implementations, but it had grown in size, that address space was an issue. I do have memories of a simple TECO for RT-11, but the EMACS macros did not load/could not run (I've forgotten why). VAX/VMS eventually had a TECO which best I can tell, begat EDT, but that was after my time. BTW: I remembered the name of the line editor for the PDP-10 I had learned before I used TECO: SOS - Son of Stopgap (I want to say the name of the IBM/TSS text editor was REDIT, but that's probably wrong). I do remember that going from the IBM system editor to SOS was very easy, the commands were similar. And, a flavor of SOS also ran on VAX/VMS before TECO or EDT arrived. As I had to relearn it, when we worked on the first VAX, since SOS was the only editor. But by that time, I had learned ed (1) and the UNIX tools and had mostly migrated away from the PDP-10. I remember being annoyed because I wanted to use regular expressions on the VAX editor, and had come to realize how much of the UNIX tool kit had become accustomed in my workflow. Clem ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20191113/92509ce0/attachment-0001.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* [COFF] TECO (was: History of m6?) 2019-11-13 15:06 ` lars 2019-11-13 15:32 ` clemc @ 2019-11-13 22:31 ` grog 2019-11-14 5:47 ` [COFF] TECO lars 2019-11-14 15:00 ` [COFF] TECO (was: History of m6?) clemc 1 sibling, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: grog @ 2019-11-13 22:31 UTC (permalink / raw) On Wednesday, 13 November 2019 at 15:06:19 +0000, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > I think just about every DEC computer had a version of TECO, right? I don't recall seeing it on our PDP-8 and -12. Does anybody else? Presumably they were too small for it, but the -8 made up a large part of DEC's production. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20191114/419056cc/attachment.sig> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* [COFF] TECO 2019-11-13 22:31 ` [COFF] TECO (was: History of m6?) grog @ 2019-11-14 5:47 ` lars 2019-11-14 14:40 ` clemc 2019-11-14 15:00 ` [COFF] TECO (was: History of m6?) clemc 1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: lars @ 2019-11-14 5:47 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1003 bytes --] Greg 'groggy' Lehey wroteÖ >> I think just about every DEC computer had a version of TECO, right? > I don't recall seeing it on our PDP-8 and -12. Does anybody else? I found this: "TECO, the text editor, was included in the standard OS/8 distributions and is a general purpose language (the Emacs editor began as a set of TECO macros!). The story of TECO on the PDP-8 is convoluted. Russ Hamm implemented TECO under his OS8 (without a slash) system, and then gave a listing to Don Baccus at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry (OMSI) who, along with Barry Smith ported it to PS/8. This was the beginning of what became Oregon Software, later famous for OMSI Pascal. Richard F. Lary and Stan Rabinowitz made OS/8 TECO more compatible with other versions of TECO, and the result of this work is the version distributed by DECUS (catalog number 110450 is the manual). RT-11 TECO for the PDP-11 is a port of this code." http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/faqs/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* [COFF] TECO 2019-11-14 5:47 ` [COFF] TECO lars @ 2019-11-14 14:40 ` clemc 2019-11-15 0:01 ` imp 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: clemc @ 2019-11-14 14:40 UTC (permalink / raw) On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 12:47 AM Lars Brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org> wrote: > > Richard F. Lary and Stan Rabinowitz made OS/8 TECO more compatible > Oh boy - there are two names from the past ;-) > with other versions of TECO, and the result of this work is the > version distributed by DECUS (catalog number 110450 is the > manual). RT-11 TECO for the PDP-11 is a port of this code." > I sent a message to Richie and Jack Burness. The last statement is a little worrisome, as 'porting' PDP-8 assembler to the PDP-11 was really not done in my experience. Jack (Graphics) and Richie (OS) worked for the late Lorin Gale on the SW for the PDP-12 - which was based on the PDP-8 and then later rewrote a lot of things for Strecker's PDP-11. But, my experience is it was always a rewrite/modeled after more than a 'port'. FWIW: I also thought it was the late Kent Blackett that did much of the RT-11 work, but I'm not sure which is why I asked Jack and Richie who should remember. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20191114/6aef226d/attachment.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* [COFF] TECO 2019-11-14 14:40 ` clemc @ 2019-11-15 0:01 ` imp 0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: imp @ 2019-11-15 0:01 UTC (permalink / raw) On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 7:40 AM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote: > > > On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 12:47 AM Lars Brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org> wrote: > >> >> Richard F. Lary and Stan Rabinowitz made OS/8 TECO more compatible >> > Oh boy - there are two names from the past ;-) > > >> with other versions of TECO, and the result of this work is the >> version distributed by DECUS (catalog number 110450 is the >> manual). RT-11 TECO for the PDP-11 is a port of this code." >> > I sent a message to Richie and Jack Burness. The last statement is a > little worrisome, as 'porting' PDP-8 assembler to the PDP-11 was really not > done in my experience. Jack (Graphics) and Richie (OS) worked for the late > Lorin Gale on the SW for the PDP-12 - which was based on the PDP-8 and then > later rewrote a lot of things for Strecker's PDP-11. But, my experience > is it was always a rewrite/modeled after more than a 'port'. FWIW: I > also thought it was the late Kent Blackett that did much of the RT-11 work, > but I'm not sure which is why I asked Jack and Richie who should remember. > I used TECO on a RSTS/e system in the early 80s, but it's visual mode and 'line noise' mode (the visual mode was akin to Emacs, but it wasn't emacs as it had funky key bindings). Had a huge teco-11 manual printed that I marked up. Was all in on TECO. Went to college. The TECO on the TOPS-20 machine was so different I hardly recognized it. Didn't matter, though, since I fell in love with Emacs and rarely needed to type in raw TECO commands to get things done.... I don't know if we ran the RT-11 TECO under RSTS/e system or not. The installation had an odd mix of RT-11 and RSX-11 binaries and sources and it was kinda hard to understand what was going on with the system as a mere user that tried to PIP everything he could to the DECWRITER for later study... I'm kinda disappointed that it wasn't a Unix shop, but at the time AT&T made it far too expensive for small mom&pop shops like the one I worked in to run Unix commercially... :( Warner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20191114/98881e03/attachment-0001.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* [COFF] TECO (was: History of m6?) 2019-11-13 22:31 ` [COFF] TECO (was: History of m6?) grog 2019-11-14 5:47 ` [COFF] TECO lars @ 2019-11-14 15:00 ` clemc 1 sibling, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: clemc @ 2019-11-14 15:00 UTC (permalink / raw) On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 11:24 PM Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote: > On Wednesday, 13 November 2019 at 15:06:19 +0000, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > I think just about every DEC computer had a version of TECO, right? > > I don't recall seeing it on our PDP-8 and -12. Does anybody else? > Presumably they were too small for it, but the -8 made up a large part > of DEC's production. > Lar's comment about Richie and Stan having worked on a PDP-8 version sounds reasonable. I don't know Stan's full story as I never worked with him closely, but Lorin Gale hired Richie and Jack into DEC out of Brooklyn Poly to work on the PDP-12 in about 1972; where they had been PDP-10 hackers as students/roommates (and nearly 50 years, multiple children and marriages later, still nearly inseparable/often hard to tell apart). Anyway, the PDP-8 was the development system for the 12. So Richie wanting a more compatible TECO would be something he could/would have created. My memory is that TECO-8 was sort of like the PC's micro-emacs in that is was written in the key/model after it's namesake, using TECO-10 in syntax and commands, but very limited and much smaller and could run on a more resource limited system. It was certainly true for TECO-11 the PDP-10's macros (EMACS) would not work there and I think the same was true for TECO-8. That said, I did not mess with either enough, as I came late the PDP-8/12 work, and really started with PDP-11s and Vaxen. So we would need to talk to a few people a little older, like Richie or Jack Burness who were there. Clem -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/attachments/20191114/f6ca95fa/attachment.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
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* [COFF] [TUHS] History of m6? [not found] ` <f68fbf8dad43ac5e8314c094c1ece06f@firemail.de> @ 2019-11-14 10:53 ` lars 2019-11-14 16:35 ` paul.winalski 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: lars @ 2019-11-14 10:53 UTC (permalink / raw) I suggest continuing this on COFF. Thomas Paulsen wrote: > I have a account on a remote twenex PDP10. There is a editor named > emacs. This is a very archaic piece of software. It doesn't know any > teco commands no matter how I tried. I'm pretty sure that this is > teco-emacs. Yes, it should be TECO Emacs. Normal use of Emacs rarely needs TECO commands. To get a TECO minibuffer type Meta-Altmode (Esc Esc). You should get a small window at the top of the terminal in which you can enter TECO commands. Execute them with double altmode as you would in any TECO. > I draw my own conclusions from these observations which are far away > from all these myths. I try to stay with the facts. I actually use TECO Emacs almost daily, and I have built it from sources. Some other information is based on email conversations among those who wrote Emacs. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* [COFF] [TUHS] History of m6? 2019-11-14 10:53 ` [COFF] [TUHS] History of m6? lars @ 2019-11-14 16:35 ` paul.winalski 0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: paul.winalski @ 2019-11-14 16:35 UTC (permalink / raw) On 11/14/19, Lars Brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org> wrote: > > To get a TECO minibuffer type Meta-Altmode (Esc Esc). You should get a > small window at the top of the terminal in which you can enter TECO > commands. Execute them with double altmode as you would in any TECO. I used to think that "Emacs" stood for "escape-meta-alt-control-shift". :-) It's too finger-busy with all that alt, escape, and meta stuff for my taste. -Paul W. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2019-11-15 0:01 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 10+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com> [not found] ` <d155d03e5177486fb1702add77ed540bebc3515a@webmail.yaccman.com> [not found] ` <CAC20D2PjXNN-LTvpfTRvAzoCo-wMbf9tLuNTzs63_7VEGJUD0w@mail.gmail.com> [not found] ` <08b6c7ce02adabe45f54621c3cbe9863@firemail.de> 2019-11-13 14:17 ` [COFF] [TUHS] History of m6? clemc 2019-11-13 15:06 ` lars 2019-11-13 15:32 ` clemc 2019-11-13 22:31 ` [COFF] TECO (was: History of m6?) grog 2019-11-14 5:47 ` [COFF] TECO lars 2019-11-14 14:40 ` clemc 2019-11-15 0:01 ` imp 2019-11-14 15:00 ` [COFF] TECO (was: History of m6?) clemc [not found] ` <7w8sokklwp.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> [not found] ` <f68fbf8dad43ac5e8314c094c1ece06f@firemail.de> 2019-11-14 10:53 ` [COFF] [TUHS] History of m6? lars 2019-11-14 16:35 ` paul.winalski
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