[COFF] [TUHS] History of m6?

[COFF] [TUHS] History of m6?

[clemc]

Moving to a COFF

On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 4:16 AM Thomas Paulsen <thomas.paulsen at firemail.de>
wrote:

> 'T'was before my time, but the legend has it that the original BLISS-10 bootstrap
> compiler was a set of TECO macros that Chuck Geschke (Adobe's
> founder) wrote.'
> Really? TECO = Tape Editor and Corrector

TECO started as that for PDP-1 or maybe TX-1 (at MIT I believe).  But over
time, TECO became the primary text editor on the PDP-10's for many, many
people in the ARPA community.   I learned it as my second, PDP-10 text
editor (I learned a line editor, who's name I forget, that was similar to
the IBM's editor when I got my first PDP-10 account, but quickly moved to
TECO).   FWIW: The original EMACS was a set of TECO macros.  The historical
truth is that besides being the primary text editor, it was so rich in
function that TECO became for the PDP-10 what Jon Bentley describes as a
'little language' and was used for all sorts of small hacks.

The later Unix world created other tools, be it sed, later awk, and the
like.  But for the PDP-10 world, TECO very much that low level engine that
a lot of people used.

When BLISS was written, CMU did not have UNIX (and thus nor any of the UNIX
tools - as I had a small hand in making UNIX happen @ CMU in the early
1970s).  But when I arrived, the two PDP-10's (CMU-A and CMU-B) reigned
supreme as primary CS (and EE) systems, along with the CMU hacked version
of IBM's TSS running on the 360 for everyone else (and where I got my first
real programming job), plus CMU's own TSS/8 on couple of PDP-8s that were
scattered about.

FWIW: Chuck used the PDP-10's for his work as a grad student.  He also is
famous for being the first PhD to produce his thesis on a 'laser printer',
the CMU XGP (it was not a laser as today, it was modified FAX machine made
by Xerox).   The fun story is that CMU's administration would not accept
his thesis originally because the library wanted the 'originals' to put in
the archives.   It took 6-9 months for his thesis advisor (Bill Wulf) to
convince the library, that they had the originals.

Anyway, the use of TECO in such a manner was very much the way things were
done in those days, so the legend is very much possible.
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[COFF] [TUHS] History of m6?

[lars]

Clem Cole wrote:
> TECO started as that for PDP-1 or maybe TX-1 (at MIT I believe). But
> over time, TECO became the primary text editor on the PDP-10's for
> many, many people in the ARPA community.

I think PDP-1.  As far as I know, no surviving copy has emerged.  Not
even Dan Murphy has one.

And not just the PDP-10.  I think just about every DEC computer had a
version of TECO, right?

[COFF] [TUHS] History of m6?

[clemc]

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On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:06 AM Lars Brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org> wrote:

>
> And not just the PDP-10.  I think just about every DEC computer had a version
> of TECO, right?
>
Very likely.   There were a lot of implementations, but it had grown in
size, that address space was an issue.   I do have memories of a simple
TECO for RT-11, but the EMACS macros did not load/could not run (I've
forgotten why).   VAX/VMS eventually had a TECO which best I can tell,
begat EDT, but that was after my time.

BTW: I remembered the name of the line editor for the PDP-10 I had learned
before I used TECO: SOS - Son of Stopgap (I want to say the name of the
IBM/TSS text editor was REDIT, but that's probably wrong).  I do remember
that going from the IBM system editor to SOS was very easy, the commands
were similar.  And, a flavor of SOS also ran on VAX/VMS before TECO or EDT
arrived.   As I had to relearn it, when we worked on the first VAX, since
SOS was the only editor.   But by that time, I had learned ed (1) and the
UNIX tools and had mostly migrated away from the PDP-10.  I remember being
annoyed because I wanted to use regular expressions on the VAX editor, and
had come to realize how much of the UNIX tool kit had become accustomed in
my workflow.

Clem


ᐧ
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[COFF] TECO (was: History of m6?)

[grog]

On Wednesday, 13 November 2019 at 15:06:19 +0000, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> I think just about every DEC computer had a version of TECO, right?

I don't recall seeing it on our PDP-8 and -12.  Does anybody else?
Presumably they were too small for it, but the -8 made up a large part
of DEC's production.

Greg
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[COFF] TECO

[lars]

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Greg 'groggy' Lehey wroteÖ
>> I think just about every DEC computer had a version of TECO, right?
> I don't recall seeing it on our PDP-8 and -12.  Does anybody else?

I found this:

  "TECO, the text editor, was included in the standard OS/8
  distributions and is a general purpose language (the Emacs editor
  began as a set of TECO macros!).  The story of TECO on the PDP-8 is
  convoluted.  Russ Hamm implemented TECO under his OS8 (without a
  slash) system, and then gave a listing to Don Baccus at the Oregon
  Museum of Science and Industry (OMSI) who, along with Barry Smith
  ported it to PS/8.  This was the beginning of what became Oregon
  Software, later famous for OMSI Pascal.

  Richard F. Lary and Stan Rabinowitz made OS/8 TECO more compatible
  with other versions of TECO, and the result of this work is the
  version distributed by DECUS (catalog number 110450 is the
  manual). RT-11 TECO for the PDP-11 is a port of this code."

http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/faqs/

[COFF] TECO

[clemc]

On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 12:47 AM Lars Brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org> wrote:

>
>   Richard F. Lary and Stan Rabinowitz made OS/8 TECO more compatible
>
Oh boy - there are two names from the past ;-)


>   with other versions of TECO, and the result of this work is the
>   version distributed by DECUS (catalog number 110450 is the
>   manual). RT-11 TECO for the PDP-11 is a port of this code."
>
I sent a message to Richie and Jack Burness.   The last statement is a
little worrisome, as 'porting' PDP-8 assembler to the PDP-11 was really not
done in my experience.  Jack (Graphics) and Richie (OS) worked for the late
Lorin Gale on the SW for the PDP-12 - which was based on the PDP-8 and then
later rewrote a lot of things for Strecker's PDP-11.   But, my experience
is it was always a rewrite/modeled after more than a 'port'.  FWIW: I also
thought it was the late Kent Blackett that did much of the RT-11 work, but
I'm not sure which is why I asked Jack and Richie who should remember.
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[COFF] TECO

[imp]

On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 7:40 AM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 12:47 AM Lars Brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>   Richard F. Lary and Stan Rabinowitz made OS/8 TECO more compatible
>>
> Oh boy - there are two names from the past ;-)
>
>
>>   with other versions of TECO, and the result of this work is the
>>   version distributed by DECUS (catalog number 110450 is the
>>   manual). RT-11 TECO for the PDP-11 is a port of this code."
>>
> I sent a message to Richie and Jack Burness.   The last statement is a
> little worrisome, as 'porting' PDP-8 assembler to the PDP-11 was really not
> done in my experience.  Jack (Graphics) and Richie (OS) worked for the late
> Lorin Gale on the SW for the PDP-12 - which was based on the PDP-8 and then
> later rewrote a lot of things for Strecker's PDP-11.   But, my experience
> is it was always a rewrite/modeled after more than a 'port'.  FWIW: I
> also thought it was the late Kent Blackett that did much of the RT-11 work,
> but I'm not sure which is why I asked Jack and Richie who should remember.
>

I used TECO on a RSTS/e system in the early 80s, but it's visual mode and
'line noise' mode (the visual mode was akin to Emacs, but it wasn't emacs
as it had funky key bindings). Had a huge teco-11 manual printed that I
marked up. Was all in on TECO. Went to college. The TECO on the TOPS-20
machine was so different I hardly recognized it. Didn't matter, though,
since I fell in love with Emacs and rarely needed to type in raw TECO
commands to get things done....

I don't know if we ran the RT-11 TECO under RSTS/e system or not. The
installation had an odd mix of RT-11 and RSX-11 binaries and sources and it
was kinda hard to understand what was going on with the system as a mere
user that tried to PIP everything he could to the DECWRITER for later
study... I'm  kinda disappointed that it wasn't a Unix shop, but at the
time AT&T made it far too expensive for small mom&pop shops like the one I
worked in to run Unix commercially... :(

Warner
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[COFF] TECO (was: History of m6?)

[clemc]

On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 11:24 PM Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, 13 November 2019 at 15:06:19 +0000, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> > I think just about every DEC computer had a version of TECO, right?
>
> I don't recall seeing it on our PDP-8 and -12.  Does anybody else?
> Presumably they were too small for it, but the -8 made up a large part
> of DEC's production.
>

Lar's comment about Richie and Stan having worked on a PDP-8 version sounds
reasonable.  I don't know Stan's full story as I never worked with him
closely, but Lorin Gale hired Richie and Jack into DEC out of Brooklyn Poly
to work on the PDP-12 in about 1972; where they had been PDP-10 hackers as
students/roommates (and nearly 50 years, multiple children and marriages
later, still nearly inseparable/often hard to tell apart).

Anyway, the PDP-8 was the development system for the 12.  So Richie wanting
a more compatible TECO would be something he could/would have created.

My memory is that TECO-8 was sort of like the PC's micro-emacs in that is
was written in the key/model after it's namesake, using TECO-10 in syntax
and commands, but very limited and much smaller and could run on a more
resource limited system.   It was certainly true for TECO-11 the PDP-10's
macros (EMACS) would not work there and I think the same was true for
TECO-8.

That said, I did not mess with either enough, as I came late the PDP-8/12
work, and really started with PDP-11s and Vaxen.   So we would need to talk
to a few people a little older, like Richie or Jack Burness who were there.

Clem
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[COFF] [TUHS] History of m6?

[lars]

I suggest continuing this on COFF.

Thomas Paulsen wrote:
> I have a account on a remote twenex PDP10. There is a editor named
> emacs. This is a very archaic piece of software.  It doesn't know any
> teco commands no matter how I tried. I'm pretty sure that this is
> teco-emacs.

Yes, it should be TECO Emacs.  Normal use of Emacs rarely needs TECO
commands.

To get a TECO minibuffer type Meta-Altmode (Esc Esc).  You should get a
small window at the top of the terminal in which you can enter TECO
commands.  Execute them with double altmode as you would in any TECO.

> I draw my own conclusions from these observations which are far away
> from all these myths.

I try to stay with the facts.  I actually use TECO Emacs almost daily,
and I have built it from sources.  Some other information is based on
email conversations among those who wrote Emacs.

[COFF] [TUHS] History of m6?

[paul.winalski]

On 11/14/19, Lars Brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org> wrote:
>
> To get a TECO minibuffer type Meta-Altmode (Esc Esc).  You should get a
> small window at the top of the terminal in which you can enter TECO
> commands.  Execute them with double altmode as you would in any TECO.

I used to think that "Emacs" stood for
"escape-meta-alt-control-shift".  :-)  It's too finger-busy with all
that alt, escape, and meta stuff for my taste.

-Paul W.