strange scoring with cache and total expire?

strange scoring with cache and total expire?

[Eric S Fraga]

Hello all,

As I have given up on the agent with respect to my work (office365.com)
server, I have started playing with the cache, including articles which
are marked read into the cache.  So far so good.  Not the same as using
the agent but it does mean I can easily/quickly access previously read
articles which is at least one of my motivations for using the agent.

However, something has gone strange with my adaptive scoring which, to
date, has worked very well.  I never get any positive scores, only
negative.  I wonder whether the persistent/cache mark affects this or
whether it's because I have moved to using total expire on the group?

I have defined a positive score for cached articles and a 0 score for
expirable articles.  I also include word scoring with similar settings.

Further, if I revisit the group (with no new messages) and then / o N
followed by q, the scores get re-done again on the old articles, getting
increasingly negative each time I do this.

I am very confused.

This is my setting for scoring:

#+begin_src emacs-lisp
  (setq gnus-default-adaptive-score-alist
        '(;(gnus-kill-file-mark)
          ;;(gnus-unread-mark)
          ;; (gnus-read-mark (from 5) (subject 30))
          (gnus-replied-mark (from 5) (subject 1))
          (gnus-read-mark (from 3) (subject 1))
          (gnus-cached-mark (from 3) (subject 1))
          (gnus-forwarded-mark (from 1) (subject 2))
          (gnus-saved-mark (from 1) (subject 3))
          (gnus-expirable-mark (from 0) (subject 0))
          (gnus-catchup-mark (from -1) (subject -2))
          (gnus-killed-mark (subject -10))
          (gnus-del-mark (from -1) (subject -2)))
        gnus-default-adaptive-word-score-alist '((42 . 5) ;cached
                                                 (65 . 5) ;replied
                                                 (70 . 1) ;forwarded
                                                 (82 . 3) ;read
                                                 (67 . -1) ;catchup
                                                 (69 . 0) ;expired
                                                 (75 . -3) ;killed
                                                 (114 . -5)) ;deleted
        )
#+end_src

Any advice very welcome!

Thanks,
eric

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.1.13 on Debian buster/sid

Re: strange scoring with cache and total expire?

[Eric S Fraga]

Reader the manual more closely, it would seem that auto-expire is the
culprit.  Don't know why this hasn't bitten me before but I've turned it
off and I'll see what happens.

Any advice still welcome, of course.

Thanks,
eric

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.1.13 on Debian buster/sid

Re: strange scoring with cache and total expire?

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk>:

> As I have given up on the agent with respect to my work (office365.com)
> server, I have started playing with the cache, including articles which
> are marked read into the cache.  So far so good.  Not the same as using
> the agent but it does mean I can easily/quickly access previously read
> articles which is at least one of my motivations for using the agent.

(FWIW I suspect the cache hasn't received much love since the agent
entered the scene...)

Re: strange scoring with cache and total expire?

[Eric S Fraga]

On Thursday, 26 Jul 2018 at 20:08, Steinar Bang wrote:
>>>>>> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk>:
>
>> As I have given up on the agent with respect to my work (office365.com)
>> server, I have started playing with the cache, including articles which
>> are marked read into the cache.  So far so good.  Not the same as using
>> the agent but it does mean I can easily/quickly access previously read
>> articles which is at least one of my motivations for using the agent.
>
> (FWIW I suspect the cache hasn't received much love since the agent
> entered the scene...)

I suspect you are correct.  However, it works well enough for me.  I
think the auto-expire setting was the problem, as near as I can tell so
far.

gnus is a wonderful system but its power is sometimes its downfall: the
complexity of some of the interactions leads to somewhat surprising
results.  Although the documentation is extensive, it's so easy to miss
things.

I just wish I could get the agent working with office365 as it works so
well with other servers.  Past experience makes me believe the problem
lies completely with MS.  Oh well.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.1.13 on Debian buster/sid

Re: strange scoring with cache and total expire?

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk>:

> I just wish I could get the agent working with office365 as it works so
> well with other servers.  Past experience makes me believe the problem
> lies completely with MS.  Oh well.

You're probably right.  Ironically, IMAP on Exchanged worked fine for me
in Gnus, back in the early 00's (ie. 2001-2002).  But later versions
have been b0rked in subtle ways.

Re: strange scoring with cache and total expire?

[Eric S Fraga]

On Friday, 27 Jul 2018 at 21:15, Steinar Bang wrote:
>>>>>> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk>:
>
>> I just wish I could get the agent working with office365 as it works so
>> well with other servers.  Past experience makes me believe the problem
>> lies completely with MS.  Oh well.
>
> You're probably right.  Ironically, IMAP on Exchanged worked fine for me
> in Gnus, back in the early 00's (ie. 2001-2002).  But later versions
> have been b0rked in subtle ways.

IMAP on Exchange worked okay (just about) until about 8 years ago when I
started having problems.  And the problems are getting worse.  I only
use it because I have to for work and unfortunately, due to GDPR, my
previous workaround of automatically sending all emails to a different
(properly functioning) server is no longer allowed.  Sigh.

At least, I don't have to use Outlook... ;-)  I couldn't do without
adaptive scoring, proper threading, splitting, etc. that gnus provides.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.1.13 on Debian buster/sid

Re: strange scoring with cache and total expire?

[Adam Sjøgren]

Eric writes:

> IMAP on Exchange worked okay (just about) until about 8 years ago when I
> started having problems.  And the problems are getting worse.  I only
> use it because I have to for work and unfortunately, due to GDPR, my
> previous workaround of automatically sending all emails to a different
> (properly functioning) server is no longer allowed.  Sigh.

My "solution" at work is to use IMAP as POP3, and have Gnus just
download all emails and store them in nnml: locally.

The less Microsoft Office 365 Outlook has to do, the less problems I
have :-)


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
 "It isn't modern just because it's electric. Country         Adam Sjøgren
  music was electric too."                               asjo@koldfront.dk

Re: strange scoring with cache and total expire?

[Eric S Fraga]

On Sunday, 29 Jul 2018 at 11:05, Adam Sjøgren wrote:
> My "solution" at work is to use IMAP as POP3, and have Gnus just
> download all emails and store them in nnml: locally.

Ummm yes, maybe, this could work.  I'll need to think through the
ramifications but this would have a very nice advantage of quick
searching capabilities.  Thanks.

> The less Microsoft Office 365 Outlook has to do, the less problems I
> have :-)

Agreed!

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.1.13 on Debian buster/sid

Re: strange scoring with cache and total expire?

[Alberto Luaces]

Eric S Fraga writes:

> On Sunday, 29 Jul 2018 at 11:05, Adam Sjøgren wrote:
>> My "solution" at work is to use IMAP as POP3, and have Gnus just
>> download all emails and store them in nnml: locally.
>
> Ummm yes, maybe, this could work.  I'll need to think through the
> ramifications but this would have a very nice advantage of quick
> searching capabilities.  Thanks.

I think I have not seen yet a mention to DavMail in this thread :-)

You would not loose the IMAP synchronization feature.

-- 
Alberto

Re: strange scoring with cache and total expire?

[Eric S Fraga]

On Tuesday, 31 Jul 2018 at 12:44, Alberto Luaces wrote:
> I think I have not seen yet a mention to DavMail in this thread :-)
>
> You would not loose the IMAP synchronization feature.

Thanks, yes, davmail is a possible alternative.  I used it for a while
but stopped using it as it was no better than a direct link with Outlook
for searching (which was my reason for trying it then).  Not sure if it
worked better with respect to the agent system or not, mind you.  I may
try it again just to see as I still have the configuration.  But I am
keen to try the nnml solution first as that would minimize my actual
interactions with Outlook, always a good thing!

Thanks again,
eric
-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.1.13 on Debian 9.4

Re: strange scoring with cache and total expire?

[Eric S Fraga]

On Sunday, 29 Jul 2018 at 11:05, Adam Sjøgren wrote:
> My "solution" at work is to use IMAP as POP3, and have Gnus just
> download all emails and store them in nnml: locally.
>
> The less Microsoft Office 365 Outlook has to do, the less problems I
> have :-)

Dear Adam,

you pointed me in this direction back in 2014 and then again now.  I
wish I had listened to you back in 2014!  I have switched to pop now and
everything is so much better. :-)  So old skool...

I've also installed notmuch and now searching is fast, as it should be.

Thanks and apologies for not taking your advice the first time.

eric
-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.1.13 on Debian 9.4

Re: strange scoring with cache and total expire?

[Adam Sjøgren]

Eric writes:

> I have switched to pop now and everything is so much better. :-) So
> old skool...
>
> I've also installed notmuch and now searching is fast, as it should be.
>
> Thanks and apologies for not taking your advice the first time.

I forgot I mentioned it before - happy to help!


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
 "the only sound is drum machine which runs all 24            Adam Sjøgren
  hours in the office, always on, always set to          asjo@koldfront.dk
  SAMBA pattern."