[Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam biased to Chinese

[Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam biased to Chinese

[Cheng Gao]

As I read Gnus *info*, under "Thwarting Email System"->"The Problem of
Spam", I got:

"If you get lots of spam from China, for example, you try to filter all
mail from Chinese IPs."

Obviously spam is a world-wide disaster, and we Chinese should not be
treated as only species of morons existed on this earth, though I know
oftentimes we are treated like this way. You need not respect Chinese,
but please dont let us feel insulted.

Please correct this biased wording. Suggest you use some forged country
name (or rather USA :-p).

Thank you very much for your help.

Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam

[Richard Hoskins]

Cheng Gao <chenggao@cyberhut.org> writes:

> Please correct this biased wording. Suggest you use some forged
> country name (or rather USA :-p).

Elbonia

-- 
Lift me down, so I can make the Earth tremble.
                                --Bucky Katt

Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam

[Simon Josefsson]

Richard Hoskins <rmh@apk.net> writes:

> Cheng Gao <chenggao@cyberhut.org> writes:
>
>> Please correct this biased wording. Suggest you use some forged
>> country name (or rather USA :-p).
>
> Elbonia

Done.  Sorry about that, Cheng.

Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam

[Cheng Gao]

>>>>> "Simon" == Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:

    Simon> Richard Hoskins <rmh@apk.net> writes:
    >> Cheng Gao <chenggao@cyberhut.org> writes:
    >> 
    >>> Please correct this biased wording. Suggest you use some forged
    >>> country name (or rather USA :-p).
    >> 
    >> Elbonia

    Simon> Done.  Sorry about that, Cheng.

Thank you very much! Gnus is the best, and the spirit behind Gnus is
the bestest!


-- 
Let bygones be bygones

Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, chenggao@cyberhut.org wrote:

> "If you get lots of spam from China, for example, you try to filter
> all mail from Chinese IPs."
> 
> Obviously spam is a world-wide disaster, and we Chinese should not
> be treated as only species of morons existed on this earth, though I
> know oftentimes we are treated like this way. You need not respect
> Chinese, but please dont let us feel insulted.
> 
> Please correct this biased wording. Suggest you use some forged
> country name (or rather USA :-p).

I wrote that passage, and I think you're overreacting a bit.  First of
all, this is obviously an example, and it should be clear to any
reader from "for example" in the sentence.  No judgment on China is
implied.  Your assumption that by using China as an example, I am
treating the Chinese as "morons" and with disrespect, is unwarranted
and unfounded.

Second, I don't want to invent a country.  I happen to think that
Elbonia, to take the example proposed, is just as insulting to
Albanians.  Also, I don't want to write a manual with invented country
names, that's slightly insulting to the intelligent reader IMHO.

Third, China is actually a pretty good example, being a big country,
because the very next paragraph makes the point that blocking a whole
country from contacting you is obviously not a good idea.

Fourth, this is a real-life situation.  People that get lots of spam
from China do try to block all Asian IPs.  You may not like it, but
I'm not stereotyping Chinese people in any way.  The existence of
spammers in a country hardly qualifies its people as "morons" as you
suggest.  Again, the next paragraph makes the point that presuming to
block mail from a whole country is very risky.

So are you complaining that I'm suggesting that there are spammers in
China?  On those grounds, you're definitely overreacting, because it's
true, and does not make all Chinese "morons."  Or maybe you don't like
that China specifically is used as an example?  I can use Bulgaria, I
guess, but it makes (3) and (4) above less valid.

Ted

Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam

[Simon Josefsson]

Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

> Second, I don't want to invent a country.  I happen to think that
> Elbonia, to take the example proposed, is just as insulting to
> Albanians.

I think Elbonia refer to Dilbert.

Feel free to modify the text again, I should have let you, as the
author, fix it.

IMHO, I think Cheng has a point; using a specific country does not
improve the understanding, and may be perceived as insulting,
regardless of the intended meaning.  If imaginary country names are
not good, perhaps "a certain region of the world" or something.

Or use Norway.  ;-)

Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam

[Xavier Maillard]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 473 bytes --]

On 11 Jan 2004, Simon Josefsson<jas@extundo.com> mused:
> Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:
>
>> Second, I don't want to invent a country.  I happen to think that
>> Elbonia, to take the example proposed, is just as insulting to
>> Albanians.
>
> I think Elbonia refer to Dilbert.

Yes.

<snip>

> Or use Norway.  ;-)

Mwarf ;)

-- 
Xavier Maillard
7 rue Jeanne Jugan, 51100 Reims, France
phone: +33 3 26 77 02 21, mobile: +33 6 62 59 68 62
email: zedek@gnu-rox.org


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Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, jas@extundo.com wrote:

> Feel free to modify the text again, I should have let you, as the
> author, fix it.

That's not a problem at all.

> IMHO, I think Cheng has a point; using a specific country does not
> improve the understanding, 

I think specific real-life examples are always better than "country X"
or "Jumanji."  I know hackers have a tendency to be cute, but throwing
in a Dilbert reference is worse than an example that I've seen in real
life (yes, there are real people that block Asian IPs, and I've argued
with them about what a bad idea that is).  See the fadden.com URL
below for one of many stories about blocking mail from Asia.

> and may be perceived as insulting, regardless of the intended
> meaning.  If imaginary country names are not good, perhaps "a
> certain region of the world" or something.

OK, but "certain region" lacks specificity, so it's no better than
"country X."  Korean ISPs have also been known to relay spam.

> Or use Norway.  ;-)

Yes, I could.  As everyone by now has understood, mentioning a
specific country in that example does not imply an insult to that
country.

This brings me to the real reason why I was upset by Cheng Gao's
comment.  He assumes that because I use China as an example country, I
think badly of the Chinese (as "morons" in his words).  This is simply
not true, and I don't want the implication to be that I did something
wrong, and now we must change the language because it's offensive to
the Chinese.  I did not say or suggest that China or its population
were beneath anyone else, as Cheng Gao implies.  Even if one assumes
that I used China because there are spammers there, that does not mean
that I or anyone else thinks badly of the Chinese.

Actually the situation is more complex.  See the following URLs for
more information (it's just a sampling, there's LOTS of information on
this topic), and then maybe you'll see my point with using China as an
example.

http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/04/06/chinese.spam.idg/
http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,50856,00.html
http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,50455,00.html
http://www.fadden.com/techmisc/asian-spam.htm
http://www.newhouse.com/archive/story1c050102.html

I'm not making things up, and pretending that China does not host
spammer ISPs and open relays in the name of political correctness
does not change that fact.

Ted

Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam

[Cheng Gao]

>>>>> "Ted" == Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

    Ted> On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, chenggao@cyberhut.org wrote:
    >> "If you get lots of spam from China, for example, you try to
    >> filter all mail from Chinese IPs."
    >> 
    >> Obviously spam is a world-wide disaster, and we Chinese should
    >> not be treated as only species of morons existed on this earth,
    >> though I know oftentimes we are treated like this way. You need
    >> not respect Chinese, but please dont let us feel insulted.
    >> 
    >> Please correct this biased wording. Suggest you use some forged
    >> country name (or rather USA :-p).

    Ted> I wrote that passage, and I think you're overreacting a bit.
    Ted> First of all, this is obviously an example, and it should be
    Ted> clear to any reader from "for example" in the sentence.  No
    Ted> judgment on China is implied.  Your assumption that by using
    Ted> China as an example, I am treating the Chinese as "morons" and
    Ted> with disrespect, is unwarranted and unfounded.

    I am sorry if my post gets you some red and nervous. I know,to some
    extent, my post seems like a bit overreacted. my mistake is maybe I
    should be more polite in wording of my original post. I dont mean
    to accuse of you or anyone else.

    Ted> Second, I don't want to invent a country.  I happen to think
    Ted> that Elbonia, to take the example proposed, is just as
    Ted> insulting to Albanians.  Also, I don't want to write a manual
    Ted> with invented country names, that's slightly insulting to the
    Ted> intelligent reader IMHO.
  
    My opinion is maybe an invented country is better. Reasons follows below.

    Ted> Third, China is actually a pretty good example, being a big
    Ted> country, because the very next paragraph makes the point that
    Ted> blocking a whole country from contacting you is obviously not a
    Ted> good idea.
 
    Yes you are right. Chins is a big country, and sometimes I feel
    it's too big and too populous. It's too big that till now 99.9999%
    of China is unknown land  to me. Its popularity makes you feel
    fatique all the time.

    Ted> Fourth, this is a real-life situation.  People that get lots of
    Ted> spam from China do try to block all Asian IPs.  You may not
    Ted> like it, but I'm not stereotyping Chinese people in any way.
    Ted> The existence of spammers in a country hardly qualifies its
    Ted> people as "morons" as you suggest.  Again, the next paragraph
    Ted> makes the point that presuming to block mail from a whole
    Ted> country is very risky.

    Yes. Real-life example is good for user to understand
    something. But to my understanding, if some user starts to use Gnus
    as his/her everyday tool for news and mail, I dare say it's fairly
    clear for him/her what the real situation is. 

    Ted> So are you complaining that I'm suggesting that there are
    Ted> spammers in China?  On those grounds, you're definitely
    Ted> overreacting, because it's true, and does not make all Chinese
    Ted> "morons."  Or maybe you don't like that China specifically is
    Ted> used as an example?  I can use Bulgaria, I guess, but it makes
    Ted> (3) and (4) above less valid.

    I dont complain that. I dont mean that. And to me, it's the same
    unfair to change China to USA or Norway or any country. To tell the
    truth, I read many manuals and tech-related materials. I dont think
    it's common practice to use name of a real Country or Person in the
    way as in Gnus *info* file which we are arguing about. Every use
    has headache of spam problem. So every Gnus user need read the
    *info*, and everyone will read the example with China as the victim
    (or I should say, every user feels themself as the victim of China
    wrongdoings).
    I know, and everyone knows that it's JUST an example. But please
    understand that when more and more users read the *info* and hit
    the section, this example will be some kind of propaganda.
    I dont think my worry is exaggeration. I know I can not exert any
    influence. I just express my opinion and concerns.

    Ted> Ted



-- 
No God blessing me
No Dog barking at me
Gonna adopt a Dog
Name it God
Get blessed and barked at

Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam

[Adam Sjøgren]

Whoa, this discussion reminds me a lot of this article I recently
stumbled upon:

 "How to Deconstruct Almost Anything--My Postmodern Adventure"
  by Chip Morningstar, Electric Communities.

   <http://www.info.ucl.ac.be/people/PVR/decon.html>


  Best regards,

-- 
 "Who ees thees Kählveen?"                                    Adam Sjøgren
                                                         asjo@koldfront.dk

Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, chenggao@cyberhut.org wrote:

>     I am sorry if my post gets you some red and nervous. I know,to
>     some extent, my post seems like a bit overreacted. my mistake is
>     maybe I should be more polite in wording of my original post. I
>     dont mean to accuse of you or anyone else.

You used words such as "biased" and "morons" which carry a pretty
heavy emotional load in English.  I can't help but feel that you are
taking offense at what you imagine I am thinking, rather than at the
actual content of the paragraph, since the actual content was
completely lacking in emotional content.

>     Ted> So are you complaining that I'm suggesting that there are
>     Ted> spammers in China?  [...]  Or maybe you don't like that
>     Ted> China specifically is used as an example?  I can use
>     Ted> Bulgaria, I guess, but it makes (3) and (4) above less
>     Ted> valid.
> 
>     I dont complain that. I dont mean that. And to me, it's the same
>     unfair to change China to USA or Norway or any country. 

Please, understand that it is not "unfair" to use a country as an
example, when the example does not imply anything negative about the
country, and especially when the example is 100%, undisputably,
absolutely true.  The references I posted clearly show that spam from
Asia and Korea and China in particular is perceived to be a problem.
I was trying to be nice and point out that blocking mail from China
is a bad idea.

>     To tell the truth, I read many manuals and tech-related
>     materials. I dont think it's common practice to use name of a
>     real Country or Person in the way as in Gnus *info* file which
>     we are arguing about.

I don't think any other part of the Gnus manual, or most other
technical materials, deal with geopolitical and social problems such
as spam.  Very few manuals would even make the point that blocking
spam from a whole country is a bad idea, which I was trying to do from
the beginning.

>     Every use has headache of spam problem. So every Gnus user need
>     read the *info*, and everyone will read the example with China
>     as the victim (or I should say, every user feels themself as the
>     victim of China wrongdoings).  

I think you're the only one so far that believes this.

>     I know, and everyone knows that it's JUST an example. But please
>     understand that when more and more users read the *info* and hit
>     the section, this example will be some kind of propaganda.

Because I prefer to write code, and I don't think this discussion will
go anywhere, I've changed the example to use Bulgaria.  China is
mentioned as an example among with other countries and continents.  If
you don't like that, let me know and I'll make sure China (or Asia
too, if you find that offensive as well) is not mentioned by name.  I
hope you find this satisfactory.

Thanks
Ted

Re: [Request for Correction]To Gnus team -- Gnus Info about spam

[Cheng Gao]

As for this topic, it's the last reply of me. 

Ted, please accept my apology. Owing to my different cultural
background, I must admit I dont know or can not understand many
words/prases/sentences/articles too much, and I may use words in
some way bizarre or even offensive to those from western cultures.
I dont mean to offend anyone though. 

I think this topic should freeze now. Maybe I was overreacted as you
said. And sorry for wasting your precious time. From reading this
group, I know you have been very busy working with Gnus. Please dont
let my silly doing distracting you from your development.

Sorry for disturbing. 

Best regards,

Cheng Gao

-- 
No God blessing me
No Dog barking at me
Gonna adopt a Dog
Name it God
Get blessed and barked at