groups with numeric names

groups with numeric names

[Dan Christensen]

  Is there some reason that a group named 110.615 or 12345 should
be visible even when it has no ticked or unread messages?  I have
nnfolder groups with those names, and both are visible when I start
gnus.  The latter doesn't even contain any messages.  Typing `l'
doesn't make them go away, but if I enter 110.615, immediately quit,
and then press `l', then that group goes away.  Also, if I rename
the group to 110.615b, then the problem goes away.

  gnus-permanently-visible-groups's value is "Inbox\\|Sent"

  Any idea what's up?

Dan

-- 
Dan Christensen
jdc@math.jhu.edu

Re: groups with numeric names

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

jdc@math.jhu.edu (Dan Christensen) writes:

>   Is there some reason that a group named 110.615 or 12345 should
> be visible even when it has no ticked or unread messages?

Groups with all-numerical names are poison.  

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: groups with numeric names

[Dan Christensen]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
> jdc@math.jhu.edu (Dan Christensen) writes:
> 
> >   Is there some reason that a group named 110.615 or 12345 should
> > be visible even when it has no ticked or unread messages?
> 
> Groups with all-numerical names are poison.  

Why?  Should this be mentioned in the manual?

Dan

--
Dan Christensen
jdc@math.jhu.edu

Re: groups with numeric names

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

jdc@math.jhu.edu (Dan Christensen) writes:

> > Groups with all-numerical names are poison.  
> 
> Why?

Gnus assumes that files with numerical names are articles, not
groups. 

> Should this be mentioned in the manual?

I thought it was mentioned, but I can't find it at the moment...

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: groups with numeric names

[Øyvind Møll]

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* Dan Christensen:
|
| Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
| > 
| > Groups with all-numerical names are poison.  
| 
| Why?  Should this be mentioned in the manual?

Because of the way many news servers store its files -- in a directory
hierarchy corresponding to the group hierarchy, and with the articles
saved as files with their (server specific) article number as
filename.

For instance, a newsgroup alt.end-of-the-world.2000 might be stored as
/var/spool/nntp/alt/end-of-the-world/2000/ and thus collide horribly
with article number 2000 in the alt.end-of-the-world newsgroup.

-- 
   Øyvind Møll
   oyvindmo@pvv.ntnu.no

Re: groups with numeric names

[Hrvoje Niksic]

"Řyvind Mřll" <oyvindmo@pvv.ntnu.no> writes:

> For instance, a newsgroup alt.end-of-the-world.2000 might be stored
> as /var/spool/nntp/alt/end-of-the-world/2000/ and thus collide
> horribly with article number 2000 in the alt.end-of-the-world
> newsgroup.

But isn't the alt.2600 hierarchy a precedent for this being legal?

-- 
Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> | Student at FER Zagreb, Croatia
--------------------------------+--------------------------------
Unspeakable horrors from outer space paralyze the living and
resurrect the dead!

Re: groups with numeric names

[Øyvind Møll]

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* Hrvoje Niksic:
|
| "Øyvind Møll" <oyvindmo@pvv.ntnu.no> writes:
| 
| > For instance, a newsgroup alt.end-of-the-world.2000 might be stored
| > as /var/spool/nntp/alt/end-of-the-world/2000/ and thus collide
| > horribly with article number 2000 in the alt.end-of-the-world
| > newsgroup.
| 
| But isn't the alt.2600 hierarchy a precedent for this being legal?

I'd rather say it's a hierarchy that at some point must have annoyed
programmers of news server software. :-)

But okay; I guess Lars' point in another message is more to the point
here -- I didn't recognize that the original poster specifically
wondered about nnfolder groups.

-- 
   Øyvind Møll
   oyvindmo@pvv.ntnu.no

Re: groups with numeric names

[Russ Allbery]

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Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:
> "Øyvind Møll" <oyvindmo@pvv.ntnu.no> writes:

>> For instance, a newsgroup alt.end-of-the-world.2000 might be stored as
>> /var/spool/nntp/alt/end-of-the-world/2000/ and thus collide horribly
>> with article number 2000 in the alt.end-of-the-world newsgroup.

> But isn't the alt.2600 hierarchy a precedent for this being legal?

No, because there isn't any group "alt" and alt.2600 would collide with
the 2600th article in "alt".  Which isn't to say that it doesn't still
cause problems, but they're much less than they could be.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)         <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Re: groups with numeric names

[Lars Balker Rasmussen]

Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes:
> No, because there isn't any group "alt" [...]

Uh-oh.

% telnet news nntp
Trying 130.225.16.11...
Connected to gjallar.daimi.aau.dk.
Escape character is '^]'.
200 news.daimi.aau.dk InterNetNews NNRP server INN 1.5.1 17-Dec-1996 ready (posting ok).
group alt
211 2 59 2600 alt
quit
205 .
Connection closed by foreign host.
-- 
Lars Balker Rasmussen, Software Engineer, Mjolner Informatics ApS
lbr@mjolner.dk

Re: groups with numeric names

[Russ Allbery]

Lars Balker Rasmussen <lbr@mjolner.dk> writes:
> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes:

>> No, because there isn't any group "alt" [...]

> Uh-oh.

Whoops.  :)

> % telnet news nntp
> Trying 130.225.16.11...
> Connected to gjallar.daimi.aau.dk.
> Escape character is '^]'.
> 200 news.daimi.aau.dk InterNetNews NNRP server INN 1.5.1 17-Dec-1996 ready
> group alt
> 211 2 59 2600 alt
           ^^^^

Notice that?  Your news server thinks that the last article in the group
"alt" is article #2600.  Since if you carry alt.2600 that's not an article
but rather is a directory, this almost certainly indicates that your news
server is confused.

Anyone reading the group for the first time is likely to see all articles
between the current highest "real" article in the group and article 2600
show up as unavailable, and then their newsrc will likely mark all those
articles as read so that even when more articles come in they'll never
show up.

This is one of the many ways in which all-numeric group names can cause
problems.

Personally, I'd solve this problem by rmgrouping "alt", since it's likely
to have about the same sort of traffic as "general" or any of the other
top-level groups (ie, mostly spam).  But that's just me.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)         <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>