Oort doesn't really support XEmacs 21.1

Oort doesn't really support XEmacs 21.1

[Steve Youngs]

Hi Folks (Lars in particular),

I just patched dgnushack.el so Gnus can be built with XEmacs 21.1 [1]
and in the process discovered a few functions that are being called
incorrectly (wrong number of args).

The functions in question are:

`open-network-stream' - "PROTOCOL" arg doesn't exist
`read-string'         - "DEFAULT-VALUE" arg doesn't exist
`completing-read'     - "DEFAULT" arg doesn't exist

Do you want me to fix those for 5.10?

There is also `string-to-multibyte' which doesn't exist on XEmacs
21.1, I could just defalias that to `ignore'.  And there is a whole
stack of...

"Variable reference to constant :prefix"

being spewed out from 'nnmaildir.el'.  What can I do about those?

I suppose all of this raises the question: "Do we continue to support
XEmacs 21.1 seeing as though it has been retired as the stable
branch?".

[Replaces Gnus hat with XEmacs hat]
Our "quasi-official" word is that we will continue to support XEmacs
21.1 for a short period (6-12 months).  After that, support will
progressively decrease until non-existent.

We have committed to supporting XEmacs 21.1 for the packages we
distribute for at least 6 months (in reality it will probably be 12
months). 

Even now, most support requests from 21.1 users will be met with a
recommendation to upgrade to current stable branch (21.4), as any bugs
found in 21.1 are not likely to be fixed.
[Puts Gnus hat back on]

So there you go.

Footnotes: 
[1]  The new command line options used when building with XEmacs
     uncovered a couple of problems.

-- 
|---<Steve Youngs>---------------<GnuPG KeyID: 10D5C9C5>---|
|        XEmacs - The only _______ you'll ever need.       |
|          Fill in the blank, yes, it's THAT good!         |
|------------------------------------<youngs@xemacs.org>---|

Re: Oort doesn't really support XEmacs 21.1

[Simon Josefsson]

Steve Youngs <youngs@xemacs.org> writes:

> `open-network-stream' - "PROTOCOL" arg doesn't exist

Emacs doesn't have PROTOCOL either.  Where is it used (without a
fallback)?

> `completing-read'     - "DEFAULT" arg doesn't exist

There is gnus-completing-read, perhaps it can be used?

> Do you want me to fix those for 5.10?

I vote yes.

> There is also `string-to-multibyte' which doesn't exist on XEmacs
> 21.1, I could just defalias that to `ignore'.

It doesn't exist under Emacs 20 either.  Where is it used
(unconditionally)?

> I suppose all of this raises the question: "Do we continue to support
> XEmacs 21.1 seeing as though it has been retired as the stable
> branch?".

I vote yes.  The manual still claim to support XEmacs 20.4, dropping
two major versions at the same time seems excessive.

Re: Oort doesn't really support XEmacs 21.1

[Steve Youngs]

|--==> "SJ" == Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:

  SJ> Steve Youngs <youngs@xemacs.org> writes:
  >>`open-network-stream' - "PROTOCOL" arg doesn't exist

  SJ> Emacs doesn't have PROTOCOL either.  Where is it used (without a
  SJ> fallback)?

,----[ from dns.el ]
| (defmacro dns-make-network-process (server)
|   (if (featurep 'xemacs)
|       `(let ((coding-system-for-read 'binary)
| 	     (coding-system-for-write 'binary))
| 	 (open-network-stream "dns" (current-buffer) ,server "domain" 'udp))
|     `(let ((server ,server)
| 	   (coding-system-for-read 'binary)
| 	   (coding-system-for-write 'binary))
|        (if (fboundp 'make-network-process)
| 	   (make-network-process
| 	    :name "dns"
| 	    :coding 'binary
| 	    :buffer (current-buffer)
| 	    :host server
| 	    :service "domain"
| 	    :type 'datagram)
| 	 ;; Older versions of Emacs doesn't have
| 	 ;; `make-network-process', so we fall back on opening a TCP
| 	 ;; connection to the DNS server.
| 	 (open-network-stream "dns" (current-buffer) server "domain")))))
`----

It only falls back when _not_ (featurep 'xemacs).


  >>`completing-read'     - "DEFAULT" arg doesn't exist

  SJ> There is gnus-completing-read, perhaps it can be used?

`gnus-completing-read' doesn't have the "DEFAULT" arg either, so if we
use that instead of `completing-read' we'll lose DEFAULT everywhere.
If I condition it so that only XEmacs 21.1 uses `gnus-completing-read'
in these cases I may as well just use `completing-read' because there
doesn't seem to be any benefit to using g-c-r here. (exactly the same)

  >>Do you want me to fix those for 5.10?

  SJ> I vote yes.

OK.

  >>There is also `string-to-multibyte' which doesn't exist on XEmacs
  >>21.1, I could just defalias that to `ignore'.

  SJ> It doesn't exist under Emacs 20 either.  Where is it used
  SJ> (unconditionally)?

That one's OK, it's wrapped in a `fboundp' test, so defalias ignore
should be fine.

  >>I suppose all of this raises the question: "Do we continue to support
  >>XEmacs 21.1 seeing as though it has been retired as the stable
  >>branch?".

  SJ> I vote yes.  The manual still claim to support XEmacs 20.4, dropping
  SJ> two major versions at the same time seems excessive.

When was the last time somebody tested Oort Gnus on XEmacs 20.4?  I'd
say you'd be pushing shit up hill to get it to run there, so I'd
suggest those docs are a little out of date. [1]


Footnotes: 
[1]  I haven't tested on XEmacs 20.4 so I can't say for sure.

-- 
|---<Steve Youngs>---------------<GnuPG KeyID: 10D5C9C5>---|
|        XEmacs - The only _______ you'll ever need.       |
|          Fill in the blank, yes, it's THAT good!         |
|------------------------------------<youngs@xemacs.org>---|

Re: Oort doesn't really support XEmacs 21.1

[Steve Youngs]

|--==> "SY" == Steve Youngs <youngs@xemacs.org> writes:

  SY> and in the process discovered a few functions that are being called
  SY> incorrectly (wrong number of args).

  SY> The functions in question are:

  SY> `open-network-stream' - "PROTOCOL" arg doesn't exist
  SY> `read-string'         - "DEFAULT-VALUE" arg doesn't exist
  SY> `completing-read'     - "DEFAULT" arg doesn't exist

A couple of macros and countless builds later and it's done. :-)

-- 
|---<Steve Youngs>---------------<GnuPG KeyID: 10D5C9C5>---|
|        XEmacs - The only _______ you'll ever need.       |
|          Fill in the blank, yes, it's THAT good!         |
|------------------------------------<youngs@xemacs.org>---|

Re: Oort doesn't really support XEmacs 21.1

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Steve Youngs <youngs@xemacs.org> writes:

>   SJ> Steve Youngs <youngs@xemacs.org> writes:
>   >>`open-network-stream' - "PROTOCOL" arg doesn't exist
>
>   SJ> Emacs doesn't have PROTOCOL either.  Where is it used (without a
>   SJ> fallback)?

Emacs 21.3.50 has PROTOCOL.  It's used for doing UDP.

...  uhm, no.  That's `make-network-connection'.  Never mind.

> It only falls back when _not_ (featurep 'xemacs).

Yes, that should be fixed.

>   >>Do you want me to fix those for 5.10?
>
>   SJ> I vote yes.
>
> OK.

Yes, please.  :-)

>   SJ> I vote yes.  The manual still claim to support XEmacs 20.4, dropping
>   SJ> two major versions at the same time seems excessive.
>
> When was the last time somebody tested Oort Gnus on XEmacs 20.4?  I'd
> say you'd be pushing shit up hill to get it to run there, so I'd
> suggest those docs are a little out of date. [1]

I think we should say that we don't support XEmacs 20.x any more --
XEmacs 21 has been out for quite a while...

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Oort doesn't really support XEmacs 21.1

[Reiner Steib]

On Thu, May 01 2003, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote:

> Steve Youngs <youngs@xemacs.org> writes:
>> When was the last time somebody tested Oort Gnus on XEmacs 20.4?  I'd
>> say you'd be pushing shit up hill to get it to run there, so I'd
>> suggest those docs are a little out of date. [1]
>
> I think we should say that we don't support XEmacs 20.x any more --
> XEmacs 21 has been out for quite a while...

Then, the version number should be changed in (info "(gnus)Emacsen").

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- PGP key available via WWW   http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: Oort doesn't really support XEmacs 21.1

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Reiner Steib <4.uce.03.r.s@nurfuerspam.de> writes:

> Then, the version number should be changed in (info "(gnus)Emacsen").

Now done.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Oort doesn't really support XEmacs 21.1

[Simon Josefsson]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Reiner Steib <4.uce.03.r.s@nurfuerspam.de> writes:
>
>> Then, the version number should be changed in (info "(gnus)Emacsen").
>
> Now done.

Is the FAQ supposed to be up to date?  (I know it didn't used to be.)
It says:

   Gnus 5.10.0 requires an Emacs version that is greater  than or equal
to Emacs 20.3 or XEmacs 20.1.

Re: Oort doesn't really support XEmacs 21.1

[Reiner Steib]

On Thu, May 01 2003, Simon Josefsson wrote:

> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
>> Reiner Steib <4.uce.03.r.s@nurfuerspam.de> writes:
>>> Then, the version number should be changed in (info "(gnus)Emacsen").
>>
>> Now done.
> Is the FAQ supposed to be up to date?

Yes, it should.

>    Gnus 5.10.0 requires an Emacs version that is greater  than or equal
> to Emacs 20.3 or XEmacs 20.1.

This should be changed, too, in gnus-faq.texi.  Could someone do this,
please?  (I don't have the sources here.)

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- PGP key available via WWW   http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: Oort doesn't really support XEmacs 21.1

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Reiner Steib <4.uce.03.r.s@nurfuerspam.de> writes:

> This should be changed, too, in gnus-faq.texi.  Could someone do this,
> please?  (I don't have the sources here.)

I've fixed it, but, er, what are the sources?  Or is the texi file
the source now?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Oort doesn't really support XEmacs 21.1

[Reiner Steib]

On Thu, May 01 2003, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote:

> Reiner Steib <4.uce.03.r.s@nurfuerspam.de> writes:
>
>> This should be changed, too, in gnus-faq.texi.  Could someone do this,
>> please?  (I don't have the sources here.)
>
> I've fixed it, but, er, what are the sources?  

Fine.  (I meant that I didn't have Gnus' sources there.)

> Or is the texi file the source now?

No, the source is the `gnus-faq.xml' in
`cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/gnus/gnus-faq/src'.

Frank Schmitt and others converted it to texi.  But in Gnus CVS, we
had to make several changes for the inclusion into the Gnus manual.  I
will sync back the changes of the contents back to `gnus-faq.xml'
later.

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- PGP key available via WWW   http://rsteib.home.pages.de/