difference between foreign and secondary servers?

difference between foreign and secondary servers?

[Kai Großjohann]

Helmut points out the following from the Gnus info file:

   Servers and Methods
   -------------------

      Wherever you would normally use a select method (e.g.
   `gnus-secondary-select-method', in the group select method, when
   browsing a foreign server) you can use a virtual server name instead.
   This could potentially save lots of typing.  And it's nice all over.

He interprets this to mean that he can add servers in the server
buffer, and then

(setq gnus-secondary-select-methods '("foo" "bar" "baz"))

Or maybe this:

(setq gnus-secondary-select-methods '("nnml:foo" "nnfolder:bar" "nnml:baz"))

Until now, I thought the only difference between secondary and foreign
servers was that the former are mentioned in
gnus-secondary-select-methods.  When one puts the whole server
definition (parameters and all) into gnus-secondary-select-methods,
you can see where the difference is -- you can frob the
gnus-secondary-select-methods nicely from Lisp code in site-start.el
or something, which is not possible for the foreign servers.

But Helmut doesn't do this.  In fact, the info file even suggests it.
So, where is the difference between secondary and foreign servers?
There must be more to it than just that the secondary servers are
mentioned in gnus-secondary-select-methods!

Ideas?

kai
-- 
I like BOTH kinds of music.

Re: difference between foreign and secondary servers?

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

>       Wherever you would normally use a select method (e.g.
>    `gnus-secondary-select-method', in the group select method, when
>    browsing a foreign server) you can use a virtual server name instead.
>    This could potentially save lots of typing.  And it's nice all over.
> 
> He interprets this to mean that he can add servers in the server
> buffer, and then
> 
> (setq gnus-secondary-select-methods '("foo" "bar" "baz"))

Yes.

> Or maybe this:
> 
> (setq gnus-secondary-select-methods '("nnml:foo" "nnfolder:bar" "nnml:baz"))

Not unless "nnml:foo" was the name of a virtual server, but it's a
really odd name.  Might even be invalid.

> Until now, I thought the only difference between secondary and foreign
> servers was that the former are mentioned in
> gnus-secondary-select-methods.  When one puts the whole server
> definition (parameters and all) into gnus-secondary-select-methods,
> you can see where the difference is -- you can frob the
> gnus-secondary-select-methods nicely from Lisp code in site-start.el
> or something, which is not possible for the foreign servers.
> 
> But Helmut doesn't do this.  In fact, the info file even suggests it.
> So, where is the difference between secondary and foreign servers?
> There must be more to it than just that the secondary servers are
> mentioned in gnus-secondary-select-methods!

No, that's the difference.  That does have quite wide-ranging
consequences, though -- for instance, `F' will query the secondary
servers, while not foreign groups will ever be created by `F'.  Etc. 

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: difference between foreign and secondary servers?

[Kai Großjohann]

On 14 Aug 2000, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote:

> Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:
> 
>>       Wherever you would normally use a select method (e.g.
>>    `gnus-secondary-select-method', in the group select method, when
>>    browsing a foreign server) you can use a virtual server name
>>    instead.  This could potentially save lots of typing.  And it's
>>    nice all over.
>> 
>> He interprets this to mean that he can add servers in the server
>> buffer, and then
>> 
>> (setq gnus-secondary-select-methods '("foo" "bar" "baz"))
> 
> Yes.
> 
>> Or maybe this:
>> 
>> (setq gnus-secondary-select-methods '("nnml:foo" "nnfolder:bar"
>> "nnml:baz"))
> 
> Not unless "nnml:foo" was the name of a virtual server, but it's a
> really odd name.  Might even be invalid.

Isn't there a possible conflict here?  I have servers (nnml "") and
(nnimap "" ...), so I'd have to do

(setq gnus-secondary-select-methods '("" ""))

Which one is first, the nnml server or the nnimap server?

;-)

>> Until now, I thought the only difference between secondary and
>> foreign servers was that the former are mentioned in
>> gnus-secondary-select-methods.  When one puts the whole server
>> definition (parameters and all) into gnus-secondary-select-methods,
>> you can see where the difference is -- you can frob the
>> gnus-secondary-select-methods nicely from Lisp code in
>> site-start.el or something, which is not possible for the foreign
>> servers.
>> 
>> But Helmut doesn't do this.  In fact, the info file even suggests
>> it.  So, where is the difference between secondary and foreign
>> servers?  There must be more to it than just that the secondary
>> servers are mentioned in gnus-secondary-select-methods!
> 
> No, that's the difference.  That does have quite wide-ranging
> consequences, though -- for instance, `F' will query the secondary
> servers, while not foreign groups will ever be created by `F'.  Etc.

Ah, yes.  I think it would be useful to know more about the `etc' part
;-)

I now browsed the manual using `s secondary RET' and I found this:

/----
|    A slightly different approach to foreign groups is to set the
| `gnus-secondary-select-methods' variable.  The select methods listed in
| this variable are in many ways just as native as the
| `gnus-select-method' server.  They will also be queried for active
| files during startup (if that's required), and new newsgroups that
| appear on these servers will be subscribed (or not) just as native
| groups are.
\----

Does that tell the whole story?  Or is there anything missing?

kai
-- 
I like BOTH kinds of music.

Re: difference between foreign and secondary servers?

[Kai Großjohann]

Another question:

One alternative is to create foreign servers foo and bar and to
mention them in gnus-secondary-select-methods, like so:

(setq gnus-secondary-select-methods '("foo" "bar"))

Another alternative is to mention the complete server parameters in
gnus-secondary-select-methods, like so:

(setq gnus-secondary-select-methods
      '((nnml "foo")
        (nnimap "bar" (nnimap-address "imap.server"))))

What are the differences between these alternatives?

One thing concerns editing of the parameters.  If the name of the imap
server changes, in the first case you do `^' and edit it there, in the
second case you edit ~/.gnus (or wherever
gnus-secondary-select-methods is set).

Another is that it appears that in the second case, the "foo" and
"bar" strings can be the same.  At least I'm running with (nnml "")
and (nnimap "" ...) in gnus-secondary-select-methods, and everything
seems to be hunky-dory (sp?).

In the first case, you could change the backend of the server.  Hm.
Or maybe you couldn't.

Btw, when does Gnus put the full-blown server description into the
.newsrc.eld file, and when does it put just the server name in there?

I'm sure I'm missing many things.  As you can see, basic understanding
of the whole issue is sorely lacking on my part.  Please help ;-)

kai
-- 
I like BOTH kinds of music.

Re: difference between foreign and secondary servers?

[Laura Conrad]

>>>>> "Kai" == Kai Großjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes:

    Kai> I now browsed the manual using `s secondary RET' and I found this:

    Kai> /----
    Kai> |    A slightly different approach to foreign groups is to set the
    Kai> | `gnus-secondary-select-methods' variable.  The select methods listed in
    Kai> | this variable are in many ways just as native as the
    Kai> | `gnus-select-method' server.  They will also be queried for active
    Kai> | files during startup (if that's required), and new newsgroups that
    Kai> | appear on these servers will be subscribed (or not) just as native
    Kai> | groups are.
    Kai> \----

    Kai> Does that tell the whole story?  Or is there anything missing?

I've been using a foreign server which is not a secondary select
method, and I find that gnus startup insists on trying to contact it
anyway.  I don't know whether it's looking for an active file or what, 
but it's a bit of a nuisance, since I need to be dialed in to access
the server, and I'm usually not when I start gnus.  

I've been just hitting ^G, but if anyone knows how to tell gnus to
start up with this server denied, that would be better yet.

-- 
Laura (mailto:lconrad@world.std.com , http://www.world.std.com/~lconrad/ )
(617) 661-8097	fax: (801) 365-6574 
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139

Re: difference between foreign and secondary servers?

[Karl Kleinpaste]

Laura Conrad <lconrad@world.std.com> writes:
> I've been using a foreign server which is not a secondary select
> method, and I find that gnus startup insists on trying to contact it
> anyway.  I don't know whether it's looking for an active file or what, 

It's because that servers' groups' levels are above
gnus-activate-level or gnus-active-foreign-newsgroups.

Set their levels to higher (worse) values, and Gnus will stop
bothering with them on startup.

Re: difference between foreign and secondary servers?

[ShengHuo ZHU]

Laura Conrad <lconrad@world.std.com> writes:


[...]

> I've been just hitting ^G, but if anyone knows how to tell gnus to
> start up with this server denied, that would be better yet.

You could put this code into .gnus

(add-to-list 'gnus-opened-servers '((nntp "quimby.gnus.org") denied))

ShengHuo