all.SCORE for agent categories

all.SCORE for agent categories

[Harry Putnam]

WIBNI we could have a mechanism similar to how all.SCORE works in
regular scoring, applied to agent category scoring?  Or is this
already possible?  It seems if one wants a score to be applied to all
agent categories it must be added to the score part of each category.

Re: all.SCORE for agent categories

[Kai Großjohann]

Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:

> WIBNI we could have a mechanism similar to how all.SCORE works in
> regular scoring, applied to agent category scoring?  Or is this
> already possible?  It seems if one wants a score to be applied to all
> agent categories it must be added to the score part of each category.

It appears that it is possible to tell the Agent to use normal score
files, see also the end of the "Category Syntax" node.  Does that do
the trick?

kai
-- 
Simplification good!  Oversimplification bad!  (Larry Wall)

Re: all.SCORE for agent categories

[Harry Putnam]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:
>
>> WIBNI we could have a mechanism similar to how all.SCORE works in
>> regular scoring, applied to agent category scoring?  Or is this
>> already possible?  It seems if one wants a score to be applied to all
>> agent categories it must be added to the score part of each category.
>
> It appears that it is possible to tell the Agent to use normal score
> files, see also the end of the "Category Syntax" node.  Does that do
> the trick?

Oh, cool.  I went looking for that stuff a few times and didn't find
it.  But unless I'm misreading the section it appears that something
still has to be entered into a group param to cause the agent to use a
specific score file.  Something like:

(agent-score "~/News/all.SCORE")

Would have to be entered into each groups group-params, and yes that
would do it but isn't really any different than having to enter
something in each agent category score file.

Also it isn't clear without experimentation if the group param setting
would override the category score or add to it.

When you say "It appears that it is possible to tell the Agent to use
normal score files....."

Are you refering to the same section on syntax? Or is there another
section that shows a way to tell the agent globally to use regular
scoring? 

An `s' search in gnus info on `agent-score' only finds hits in the
syntax section cited.

The mechanism of all.SCORE requires no special effort in regular
scoring right? If it is there it gets used globally.  Is there a way
to tell the agent to use that file globally too? But to let it add to
any category score already in place.

Re: all.SCORE for agent categories

[Harry Putnam]

Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:

> Oh, cool.  I went looking for that stuff a few times and didn't find
> it.  But unless I'm misreading the section it appears that something
> still has to be entered into a group param to cause the agent to use a
> specific score file.  Something like:
>
> (agent-score "~/News/all.SCORE")
>
> Would have to be entered into each groups group-params, and yes that
> would do it but isn't really any different than having to enter
> something in each agent category score file.

Further confusions arise at points 2 and 3 at the end of that section.
I don't see the difference between them but they display different
syntax and paren usage.  Where do these items go? 

The info says `Category definition' but that is made up of 3 parts far
as I know.  I guess it means the `s' score part but then why is
different syntax shown in 2 and 3?

2:... 
        * Category specification

               ("~/News/agent.SCORE")

3:...

        * Category Specification

               file
       

Re: all.SCORE for agent categories

[Kai Großjohann]

Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:

> Further confusions arise at points 2 and 3 at the end of that section.
> I don't see the difference between them but they display different
> syntax and paren usage.  Where do these items go? 

Hm.  I didn't read it that closely at first, but it seems that for
#3, you have two possibilities:  either you put stuff in the category
spec, or you put stuff in group parameters.

If you want to do it in the cat spec, then I guess you do `J c' to
edit the categories and then `s' on the category you want and then
replace the `nil' with `file'.

I wish somebody who has actually done this would speak up.  I'm only
doing guesswork based on some b0rked intuition what the docs say.

kai
-- 
Simplification good!  Oversimplification bad!  (Larry Wall)

Re: all.SCORE for agent categories

[Harry Putnam]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> I wish somebody who has actually done this would speak up.  I'm only
> doing guesswork based on some b0rked intuition what the docs say.

I guess its time to don my guinea pig hat...

Re: all.SCORE for agent categories

[Robert Epprecht]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> If you want to do it in the cat spec, then I guess you do `J c' to
> edit the categories and then `s' on the category you want and then
> replace the `nil' with `file'.
>
> I wish somebody who has actually done this would speak up.  I'm only
> doing guesswork based on some b0rked intuition what the docs say.

Yes, I have used this for quite some time and it worked fine for me.
(To avoid confusion: You have to put the word `file' literally, not
 a file name ;-)

Robert Epprecht

Re: all.SCORE for agent categories

[Harry Putnam]

Robert Epprecht <epprecht@sunweb.ch> writes:

> Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:
>
>> If you want to do it in the cat spec, then I guess you do `J c' to
>> edit the categories and then `s' on the category you want and then
>> replace the `nil' with `file'.
>>
>> I wish somebody who has actually done this would speak up.  I'm only
>> doing guesswork based on some b0rked intuition what the docs say.
>
> Yes, I have used this for quite some time and it worked fine for me.
> (To avoid confusion: You have to put the word `file' literally, not
>  a file name ;-)

Whoa.. hold up there a minute Robert.  You've used what for quite a
while?  Can you spell this out at length for us intellectually
challenged folks..

Maybe describe a complete `category' and what it does.  Or how you use
this in Group params.

My aim is to use a general score file across all agent groups in
addition to each categories score component.  I'd rather not do it
with topics because I don't like organizing things that way.

Is it just a matter of saying `file' in the right place?  How does
gnus now what `file' you mean? Or does it automatically mean a file
with that group name?  If so then that is not like an all.SCORE file.

Re: all.SCORE for agent categories

[Kai Großjohann]

Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:

> Is it just a matter of saying `file' in the right place?  How does
> gnus now what `file' you mean? Or does it automatically mean a file
> with that group name?  If so then that is not like an all.SCORE file.

Saying `file' (sans quotes) tells Gnus to go look for the normal
score files.  And then there is another variable which tells Gnus
what to do when it looks for the normal score files.

gnus-score-find-score-files-function is the name of the variable.  I
think you want the `bnews' function for the `all' trick.

kai
-- 
Simplification good!  Oversimplification bad!  (Larry Wall)

Re: all.SCORE for agent categories

[Harry Putnam]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:
>
>> Is it just a matter of saying `file' in the right place?  How does
>> gnus now what `file' you mean? Or does it automatically mean a file
>> with that group name?  If so then that is not like an all.SCORE file.
>
> Saying `file' (sans quotes) tells Gnus to go look for the normal
> score files.  And then there is another variable which tells Gnus
> what to do when it looks for the normal score files.
>
> gnus-score-find-score-files-function is the name of the variable.  I
> think you want the `bnews' function for the `all' trick.

Yeah, looks like it.  Thanks for the pointer.  But unless I'm still
missing the boat here, it would still mean that in addition to leaving
the default bnews setting in gnus-score-find-score-files-function, I
would need to include `file' in each categories score component, if I
wanted an all.SCORE to apply to all agent categories.

What I was looking for is a way to set one scorefile or whatever and
have it effect all agent categories score component without having to
hand edit each one.   In other words have something that acts like
all.SCORE acts in regular scoring.

Maybe it can be done in gnus-parmeters some how.  But it doesn't
really look like it.  Something like this would still mean I'd need to
say something in `J C s' categories wouldn't it?

    (setq gnus-parameters
       '(("XYZ\\..*"  (file))
Where XYX is some crazy regexp that excludes all unagentized groups, 

I don't mean to imply that having to add something in `categories' is
such and insurmountable task, just looking for a lazy way.

Re: all.SCORE for agent categories

[Kai Großjohann]

Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:

>     (setq gnus-parameters
>        '(("XYZ\\..*"  (file))
> Where XYX is some crazy regexp that excludes all unagentized groups, 

It seems that 

(setq gnus-parameters
      '(("x" (agent-score . file))))

ought to do the trick -- this one applies to all group names
containing "x".

If you use topics, you can also put the parameter in the topics, I
think. 

kai
-- 
Simplification good!  Oversimplification bad!  (Larry Wall)

Re: all.SCORE for agent categories

[Robert Epprecht]

Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:

> Whoa.. hold up there a minute Robert.  You've used what for quite a
> while?  Can you spell this out at length for us intellectually
> challenged folks..

OK I spell it out *at length* ;-)

I have all my newsgroups under the agent (no mail groups).
This is my way of using it:

* There are a few groups where I want to download everything,
  so I have them in category 'all' with predicate 'true'.

* Some groups I only want to check if there comes something interesting
  and manually select each article to download, so they are in the
  category 'header' with predicate 'false'.  I don't use that often.

* Then there's the great majority of groups where I want to watch new
  threads coming up (using orphan scoring), increase the score of
  interesting stuff (using a macro, don't ask ;-) and have the Agent
  download all follow-up's. As this is the normal case for me I put
  them in the 'default' category with predicate 'high'. Then I go
  to the category buffer, do 's' to edit the download score rule
  and put the symbol 'file' instead of 'nil' into it.  That's it!

> Maybe describe a complete `category' and what it does.

Hope it's clear now...

I never understood what it can be good for to have two sets of scoring
rules, the ordinary ones and the download scores for the Agent.  So I
started to use ordinary score files as soon as this became possible in
Gnus.  The ordinary scoring interface is so handy, and there is (was?)
nothing like it for the Agent. I wouldn't want to use the Agent
without...  So I have that useful 'watch thread and download'
functionality and all the other Gnus Goodies (regarding scoring) which
make reading news so much more convenient for me.

> Is it just a matter of saying `file' in the right place?  How does
> gnus now what `file' you mean? Or does it automatically mean a file
> with that group name?  If so then that is not like an all.SCORE file.

I think 'file' is just a key word that triggers Gnus to do The Right
Thing, which is (for me) download all articles with positive scoring.
If I'm not mistaken it respects both, the group.SCORE score file and
all.SCORE.  Just as in ordinary scoring.

Robert Epprecht

Re: all.SCORE for agent categories

[Harry Putnam]

Robert Epprecht <epprecht@sunweb.ch> writes:

> Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:
>
>> Whoa.. hold up there a minute Robert.  You've used what for quite a
>> while?  Can you spell this out at length for us intellectually
>> challenged folks..
>
> OK I spell it out *at length* ;-)

Oh goody... help for the nitwits...

> * Some groups I only want to check if there comes something interesting
>   and manually select each article to download, so they are in the
>   category 'header' with predicate 'false'.  I don't use that often.
>
> * Then there's the great majority of groups where I want to watch new
>   threads coming up (using orphan scoring), increase the score of
>   interesting stuff (using a macro, don't ask ;-) and have the Agent
>   download all follow-up's. As this is the normal case for me I put
>   them in the 'default' category with predicate 'high'. Then I go
>   to the category buffer, do 's' to edit the download score rule
>   and put the symbol 'file' instead of 'nil' into it.  That's it!

Your setup is very similar to mine, with the true, false, and
`other' categories.  My `other' has been a category with predicate
high and scoring on subjects containing `Re:'

I've been experimenting with a fourth category, the subject of all my
noise on this thread, where I try to use regular scoring and an
all.SCORE approach.  I agree that the double scoring rules are now
mainly a historical thing and not as handy as regurlar scoring.

I think I see how to do this now. Thanks to Kai and your patient
postings. 

Now the part I'm not supposed to ask......

"For god sakes man... post it! ...  They're human!"
(Bones ([Deforest Kelly] on star trek)

"Can you post (or mail privately) to help a retard?"
(Harry on ding)

Re: all.SCORE for agent categories

[Robert Epprecht]

Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:

> Now the part I'm not supposed to ask......
>
> "For god sakes man... post it! ...  They're human!"
> (Bones ([Deforest Kelly] on star trek)

I need a function to call on the first line of a new thread in
summary buffer under the Agent which will raise the scoring of
all follow up's (including misconfigured ones, where only subject
matches) and toggles the download mark for all articles that are
already there.  It's a horrible hack, but 'It Works For Me' ;-)
I think it depends on my summary line format which is the default
Gnus came with. (I'd be happy if someone could do that better and
post it here).

I have in my .gnus.el

(fset 'IrrtIsst
   "Irrt\C-mIsst\C-m")

(defun my-mark-tread-for-downloading ()
  " Marks a thread for downloading by the agent through scoring rules."
  (interactive)
  (message "Marking thread for download")
  (execute-kbd-macro 'IrrtIsst)

  ;; marking the first message for downloading
  (beginning-of-line)
  (if (looking-at "@")
      (gnus-agent-toggle-mark 1)
    (next-line 1)
    )

  (while (progn                       ;; now looping over the thread
	   (beginning-of-line)        ;; checking for new thread
	   (forward-char 3)
	   (looking-at " ")
	   )
    (progn
      (beginning-of-line)
      (if (looking-at "@")
	  (gnus-agent-toggle-mark 1)
	(next-line 1)
	)
      )
    )
  )

(define-key gnus-summary-mode-map (kbd "i") 'my-mark-tread-for-downloading)

Re: all.SCORE for agent categories

[Harry Putnam]

Robert Epprecht <epprecht@sunweb.ch> writes:

> I need a function to call on the first line of a new thread in
> summary buffer under the Agent which will raise the scoring of
> all follow up's (including misconfigured ones, where only subject
> matches) and toggles the download mark for all articles that are
> already there.  It's a horrible hack, but 'It Works For Me' ;-)
> I think it depends on my summary line format which is the default
> Gnus came with. (I'd be happy if someone could do that better and
> post it here).

Thanks Robert,
I had gotten the impression it was something that you had in your
score files somewhere, that worked transparently from agent
categories.  I wouldn't have thought to do it that way. ..
Cool.

Re: all.SCORE for agent categories

[Kai Großjohann]

Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:

> Oh, cool.  I went looking for that stuff a few times and didn't find
> it.  But unless I'm misreading the section it appears that something
> still has to be entered into a group param to cause the agent to use a
> specific score file.  Something like:
>
> (agent-score "~/News/all.SCORE")
>
> Would have to be entered into each groups group-params, and yes that
> would do it but isn't really any different than having to enter
> something in each agent category score file.
>
> Also it isn't clear without experimentation if the group param setting
> would override the category score or add to it.
>
> When you say "It appears that it is possible to tell the Agent to use
> normal score files....."
>
> Are you refering to the same section on syntax? Or is there another
> section that shows a way to tell the agent globally to use regular
> scoring? 
>
> An `s' search in gnus info on `agent-score' only finds hits in the
> syntax section cited.
>
> The mechanism of all.SCORE requires no special effort in regular
> scoring right? If it is there it gets used globally.  Is there a way
> to tell the agent to use that file globally too? But to let it add to
> any category score already in place.

It appears the spec should be (agent-score . file), not (agent-score
. "/some/file/name").

Since the group parameter is the same for all groups, you could set it
in the top-level topic, or via the gnus-parameters variable, or
something.

But note that I've only read the documentation, not actually tried it.

kai
-- 
Simplification good!  Oversimplification bad!  (Larry Wall)