From: Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine <p.l.lu...@gmail.com>
To: Dimitris Tsementzis <dtse...@princeton.edu>
Cc: Homotopy Type Theory <HomotopyT...@googlegroups.com>,
Univalent Mathematics <univalent-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [HoTT] A small observation on cumulativity and the failure of initiality
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 10:03:06 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAAkwb-kaWf0=SROtXVnHvN5Xb9RJOoQYjXu6i5tonzq0J3o4TQ@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <F2106ADB-D78F-4228-B0A9-DBC6EC69E96A@princeton.edu>
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On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 8:43 PM, Dimitris Tsementzis <dtse...@princeton.edu
> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Let’s say a type theory TT is *initial* if its term model C_TT is initial
> among TT-models, where TT-models are models of the categorical semantics of
> type theory (e.g. CwFs/C-systems etc.) with enough extra structure to model
> the rules of TT.
>
I like the examples, but I would give a different analysis of what they
tell us.
The definition of “initial” presupposes that we have already defined what
“TT-models” means — i.e. what the categorical semantics should be. There
is as yet no proposed general definition of this (as far as I know).
Heuristically, there’s certainly a large class of type theories where we
understand what the categorical semantics are, and all clearly agree. But
rules like un-annotated cumulativity are *not* in this class. It’s not
clear what should correspond to un-annotated cumulativity, as a rule in
CwA’s (or CwF’s, C-systems, etc). A certain operation on terms? An
operation, plus the condition that it’s mono? An assumption that terms of
one type are literally a subset of terms of the other? Some of these will
make initiality clearly false; others may make it true but very
non-obviously so (that is, more non-obviously than usual).
So I don’t think we can say “These theories aren’t initial.” — but more
like “We’re not sure what the correct initiality statement is for these
theories, and some versions one might try are false.” But I definitely
agree that they show
> the claim that e.g. Book HoTT or 2LTT is initial cannot be considered
obvious
–p.
Then we have the following, building on an example of Voevodsky’s.
>
> *OBSERVATION*. Any type theory which contains the following rules
> (admissible or otherwise)
>
> Γ |- T *Type*
> ———————— (C)
> Γ |- B(T) *Type*
>
> Γ |- t : T
> ———————— (R1)
> Γ |- t : B(T)
>
> Γ |- t : T
> ———————— (R2)
> Γ |- p(t) : B(T)
>
> together with axioms that there is a type T0 in any context and a term t0
> : T0 in any context, is not initial.
>
> *PROOF SKETCH.* Let TT be such a type theory. Consider the type theory
> TT* which replaces (R1) with the rule
>
> Γ |- t : T
> ———————— (R1*)
> Γ |- q(t) : B(T)
>
> i.e. the rule which adds an “annotation” to a term t from T that becomes a
> term of B(T). Then the category of TT-models is isomorphic (in fact, equal)
> to the category of TT*-models and in particular the term models C_TT and
> C_TT* are both TT-models. But there are two distinct TT-model homomorphisms
> from C_TT to C_TT*, one which sends p(t0) to pq(t0) and one which sends
> p(t0) to qp(t0) (where p(t0) is regarded as an element of Tm_{C_TT} (empty,
> B(B(T0))), i.e. of the set of terms of B(B(T0)) in the empty context as
> they are interpreted in the term model C_TT).
>
> *COROLLARY. *Any (non-trivial) type theory with a “cumulativity" rule for
> universes, i.e. a rule of the form
>
> Γ |- A : U0
> ———————— (U-cumul)
> Γ |- A : U1
>
> is not initial. In particular, the type theory in the HoTT book is not
> initial (because of (U-cumul)), and two-level type theory 2LTT as presented
> here <https://arxiv.org/abs/1705.03307> is not initial (because of the
> rule (FIB-PRE)).
>
> The moral of this small observation, if correct, is not of course that
> type theories with the guilty rules cannot be made initial by appropriate
> modifications to either the categorical semantics or the syntax, but rather
> that a bit of care might be required for this task. One modification would
> be to define their categorical semantics to be such that certain identities
> hold that are not generally included in the definitions of
> CwF/C-system/…-gadgets (e.g. that the inclusion operation on universes is
> idempotent). Another modification would be to add annotations (by replacing
> (R1) with (R1*) as above) and extra definitional equalities ensuring that
> annotations commute with type constructors.
>
> But without some such explicit modification, I think that the claim that
> e.g. Book HoTT or 2LTT is initial cannot be considered obvious, or even
> entirely correct.
>
> Best,
>
> Dimitris
>
> PS: Has something like the above regarding cumulativity rules has been
> observed before — if so can someone provide a relevant reference?
>
>
>
>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2017-10-13 8:03 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 47+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2017-10-12 18:43 Dimitris Tsementzis
2017-10-12 22:31 ` [HoTT] " Michael Shulman
2017-10-13 4:30 ` Dimitris Tsementzis
2017-10-13 15:41 ` Michael Shulman
2017-10-13 21:51 ` Dimitris Tsementzis
2017-10-13 0:09 ` Steve Awodey
2017-10-13 0:44 ` Alexander Altman
2017-10-13 15:50 ` Michael Shulman
2017-10-13 16:17 ` Steve Awodey
2017-10-13 16:23 ` Michael Shulman
2017-10-13 16:36 ` Matt Oliveri
2017-10-14 14:56 ` Gabriel Scherer
2017-10-15 7:45 ` Thomas Streicher
2017-10-15 8:37 ` Thierry Coquand
2017-10-15 9:26 ` Thomas Streicher
2017-10-16 5:30 ` Andrew Polonsky
2017-10-15 10:12 ` Michael Shulman
2017-10-15 13:57 ` Thomas Streicher
2017-10-15 14:53 ` Michael Shulman
2017-10-15 16:00 ` Michael Shulman
2017-10-15 21:00 ` Matt Oliveri
2017-10-16 5:09 ` Michael Shulman
2017-10-16 12:30 ` Neel Krishnaswami
2017-10-16 13:35 ` Matt Oliveri
2017-10-16 15:00 ` Michael Shulman
2017-10-16 16:34 ` Matt Oliveri
2017-10-16 13:45 ` Matt Oliveri
2017-10-16 15:05 ` Michael Shulman
2017-10-16 16:20 ` Matt Oliveri
2017-10-16 16:37 ` Michael Shulman
2017-10-16 10:01 ` Thomas Streicher
2017-10-15 20:06 ` Matt Oliveri
2017-10-13 8:03 ` Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine [this message]
2017-10-13 8:10 ` Thomas Streicher
2017-10-14 7:33 ` Thorsten Altenkirch
2017-10-14 9:37 ` Andrej Bauer
2017-10-14 9:52 ` Thomas Streicher
2017-10-14 10:51 ` SV: " Erik Palmgren
2017-10-15 23:42 ` Andrej Bauer
2017-10-15 10:42 ` Thorsten Altenkirch
2017-10-13 22:05 ` Dimitris Tsementzis
2017-10-13 14:12 ` Robin Adams
[not found] <B14E498C-FA19-41D2-B196-42FAF85F8CD8@princeton.edu>
2017-10-14 9:55 ` [HoTT] " Alexander Altman
2017-10-16 10:21 Thorsten Altenkirch
2017-10-16 10:42 ` Andrew Polonsky
2017-10-16 14:12 ` Thorsten Altenkirch
2017-10-16 10:21 Thorsten Altenkirch
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