* Call for ideas for future musl-related talks @ 2014-12-15 5:04 Rich Felker 2014-12-28 16:24 ` Justin Cormack 2015-01-04 4:17 ` Rich Felker 0 siblings, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Rich Felker @ 2014-12-15 5:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: musl After having done a couple conference talks already at Ohio LinuxFest 2013 and 2014, I'm considering pursuing more conferences, but I'm not sure what topics/framing would be most interesting and effective at getting more people interested in musl. If there's anything special you'd like to hear me give a talk on, or think would be constructive to the project, reply and let me know. Rich ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: Call for ideas for future musl-related talks 2014-12-15 5:04 Call for ideas for future musl-related talks Rich Felker @ 2014-12-28 16:24 ` Justin Cormack 2014-12-29 0:29 ` Szabolcs Nagy 2014-12-30 19:32 ` Rich Felker 2015-01-04 4:17 ` Rich Felker 1 sibling, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Justin Cormack @ 2014-12-28 16:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: musl On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 5:04 AM, Rich Felker <dalias@libc.org> wrote: > After having done a couple conference talks already at Ohio LinuxFest > 2013 and 2014, I'm considering pursuing more conferences, but I'm not > sure what topics/framing would be most interesting and effective at > getting more people interested in musl. If there's anything special > you'd like to hear me give a talk on, or think would be constructive > to the project, reply and let me know. Apologies for not getting back sooner. I think the most interesting topic for a talk for a generalist audience is to cover the kinds of bugs you write about on ewontfix. (I wouldn't talk about systemd though, it is too partisan for people to listen clearly). The focus should be around techniques for writing better software, better specifications, and how to find problematic areas. And about how writing tests for these things is hard, because a lot of them are races, although talking about where tests do and dont work is good too. A title could be: Finding bugs in glibc by writing a better libc Better code by design, thought, and hard work A structure like: 1. What is Musl and why did I start writing it 2. Libc bugs are like compiler bugs they really ruin your day 3. Go into some detail as per ewontfix on 1-3 bugs as per ewontfix depending on talk length 4. How to spot potential bugs: code inspection, tests 5. Why Musl is less buggy than glibc: size, consistency, structure etc 6. Working with specifications, feedback, clarification 7. Musl is great, how to get started with it Happy to feedback on any drafts. Justin ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: Call for ideas for future musl-related talks 2014-12-28 16:24 ` Justin Cormack @ 2014-12-29 0:29 ` Szabolcs Nagy 2014-12-30 19:45 ` Rich Felker 2014-12-31 7:12 ` Natanael Copa 2014-12-30 19:32 ` Rich Felker 1 sibling, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Szabolcs Nagy @ 2014-12-29 0:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: musl * Justin Cormack <justin@specialbusservice.com> [2014-12-28 16:24:43 +0000]: > On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 5:04 AM, Rich Felker <dalias@libc.org> wrote: > > After having done a couple conference talks already at Ohio LinuxFest > > 2013 and 2014, I'm considering pursuing more conferences, but I'm not > > sure what topics/framing would be most interesting and effective at > > getting more people interested in musl. If there's anything special > > you'd like to hear me give a talk on, or think would be constructive > > to the project, reply and let me know. > > Apologies for not getting back sooner. > > I think the most interesting topic for a talk for a generalist > audience is to cover the kinds of bugs you write about on ewontfix. (I > wouldn't talk about systemd though, it is too partisan for people to > listen clearly). > > The focus should be around techniques for writing better software, > better specifications, and how to find problematic areas. And about > how writing tests for these things is hard, because a lot of them are > races, although talking about where tests do and dont work is good > too. > my whishlist is - why do posix and c matter in the age of web/mobile/cloud - good/bad/ugly parts of posix/linux/toolchain from libc pov - metrics (benchmarks, size, complexity, amount of libc code executed in various use-cases, time spent in libc, etc) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: Call for ideas for future musl-related talks 2014-12-29 0:29 ` Szabolcs Nagy @ 2014-12-30 19:45 ` Rich Felker 2014-12-30 22:11 ` Laurent Bercot 2014-12-31 7:12 ` Natanael Copa 1 sibling, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Rich Felker @ 2014-12-30 19:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: musl On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 01:29:30AM +0100, Szabolcs Nagy wrote: > my whishlist is > > - why do posix and c matter in the age of web/mobile/cloud > > - good/bad/ugly parts of posix/linux/toolchain from libc pov > > - metrics (benchmarks, size, complexity, amount of libc code > executed in various use-cases, time spent in libc, etc) I like your ideas, and IMO this is potentially interesting as a less-technical talk -- or at least one that's compelling to a less technical audience but that still gives an opportunity to bring in technical material. The "why does it matter" part is nice for bringing up the pitfalls of container deployment with glibc and mainstream library stacks -- circular dependencies and difficulty of reproducible builds, need for large supporting infrastructure in your containers, large bug/attack surface, etc. Of course this doesn't really cover the matter of why C/POSIX are needed (versus e.g. a core OS built on node.js or lua or similar) but that's an opportunity to talk about resource accounting and how hard it is to make a robust system groundwork in a language that doesn't have a concept of storage and storage duration. Rich ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: Call for ideas for future musl-related talks 2014-12-30 19:45 ` Rich Felker @ 2014-12-30 22:11 ` Laurent Bercot 0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Laurent Bercot @ 2014-12-30 22:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: musl On 30/12/2014 20:45, Rich Felker wrote: > The "why does it matter" part is nice for bringing up the pitfalls of > container deployment with glibc and mainstream library stacks -- > circular dependencies and difficulty of reproducible builds, need for > large supporting infrastructure in your containers, large bug/attack > surface, etc. Of course this doesn't really cover the matter of why > C/POSIX are needed (versus e.g. a core OS built on node.js or lua or > similar) but that's an opportunity to talk about resource accounting > and how hard it is to make a robust system groundwork in a language > that doesn't have a concept of storage and storage duration. If you do that talk, I would love to have a video of it, or at least the slides. I often get asked this question about the skarnet.org project and it's really hard to convince people of the importance of smallness and reduced dependencies in the age of powerful computers and packaged distribution; and the mere concept of attack surface isn't even well understood. Having a document of reference to point people to would be a tremendous help - and I've never taken the time to write a serious one. If at some point you're open to external participation for the preparation of such a talk or document, I'm very much willing to help. -- Laurent ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: Call for ideas for future musl-related talks 2014-12-29 0:29 ` Szabolcs Nagy 2014-12-30 19:45 ` Rich Felker @ 2014-12-31 7:12 ` Natanael Copa 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Natanael Copa @ 2014-12-31 7:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Szabolcs Nagy; +Cc: musl On Mon, 29 Dec 2014 01:29:30 +0100 Szabolcs Nagy <nsz@port70.net> wrote: > * Justin Cormack <justin@specialbusservice.com> [2014-12-28 16:24:43 +0000]: > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 5:04 AM, Rich Felker <dalias@libc.org> wrote: > > > If there's anything special you'd like to hear me give a talk on, > > > or think would be constructive to the project, reply and let me > > > know. ... > my whishlist is > > - why do posix and c matter in the age of web/mobile/cloud +1 This could maybe include a few words on why standards in general matter at all. (for example even the big company that gave us Internet Explorer 6 realizes that it hurts themselves to not follow html standard in the long run.) I think this is a topic that people need to hear. Why standards are good and why its a bad idea to let one implementation rule them all and be the "standard" that all other implementations should mimic. Imagine if all browsers should follow the IE 6 implementation of html/css. At that time it maybe looked like a good idea to use all the extra features to have your product compete with those who aimed for "lowest common denominator" feature set - but today most people that depends on a browser realize that was a bad idea in the long run. > - good/bad/ugly parts of posix/linux/toolchain from libc pov > > - metrics (benchmarks, size, complexity, amount of libc code > executed in various use-cases, time spent in libc, etc) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: Call for ideas for future musl-related talks 2014-12-28 16:24 ` Justin Cormack 2014-12-29 0:29 ` Szabolcs Nagy @ 2014-12-30 19:32 ` Rich Felker 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Rich Felker @ 2014-12-30 19:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: musl On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 04:24:43PM +0000, Justin Cormack wrote: > On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 5:04 AM, Rich Felker <dalias@libc.org> wrote: > > After having done a couple conference talks already at Ohio LinuxFest > > 2013 and 2014, I'm considering pursuing more conferences, but I'm not > > sure what topics/framing would be most interesting and effective at > > getting more people interested in musl. If there's anything special > > you'd like to hear me give a talk on, or think would be constructive > > to the project, reply and let me know. > > Apologies for not getting back sooner. No problem. Thanks for the feedback/ideas! > I think the most interesting topic for a talk for a generalist > audience is to cover the kinds of bugs you write about on ewontfix. (I > wouldn't talk about systemd though, it is too partisan for people to > listen clearly). I agree completely and I've omitted systemd from past talks except possibly some brief mention in response to questions from the audience (I forget whether my remarks on systemd were during or after the sessions but they weren't inflammatory anyway :). > The focus should be around techniques for writing better software, > better specifications, and how to find problematic areas. And about > how writing tests for these things is hard, because a lot of them are > races, although talking about where tests do and dont work is good > too. This has a lot of overlap with my Ohio LinuxFest 2013 talk, and while I think people found it interesting, I think it was too developer-oriented for most of the audience to get a lot out of it. If I do that type of talk again I'd want either to make sure I'm talking to an audience with the appropriate technical background or to find a way to make it less technical but still compelling (and IMO that's really hard). > A title could be: > Finding bugs in glibc by writing a better libc > Better code by design, thought, and hard work > > A structure like: > 1. What is Musl and why did I start writing it > 2. Libc bugs are like compiler bugs they really ruin your day > 3. Go into some detail as per ewontfix on 1-3 bugs as per ewontfix > depending on talk length > 4. How to spot potential bugs: code inspection, tests > 5. Why Musl is less buggy than glibc: size, consistency, structure etc > 6. Working with specifications, feedback, clarification > 7. Musl is great, how to get started with it I like this structure. Rich ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: Call for ideas for future musl-related talks 2014-12-15 5:04 Call for ideas for future musl-related talks Rich Felker 2014-12-28 16:24 ` Justin Cormack @ 2015-01-04 4:17 ` Rich Felker 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Rich Felker @ 2015-01-04 4:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: musl On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 12:04:32AM -0500, Rich Felker wrote: > After having done a couple conference talks already at Ohio LinuxFest > 2013 and 2014, I'm considering pursuing more conferences, but I'm not > sure what topics/framing would be most interesting and effective at > getting more people interested in musl. If there's anything special > you'd like to hear me give a talk on, or think would be constructive > to the project, reply and let me know. I wasn't aware until today, but Embedded Linux Conference 2015 will be taking place this March in San Jose, CA and the deadline for proposals is next week. I'm not sure if I'll be able to come up with a proposal for it or get funding for travel, but even if I don't I think this might be a nice opportunity for others with musl-based embedded projects. Details are at: http://free-electrons.com/blog/elc-2015-cfp/ http://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/embedded-linux-conference/program/cfp Rich ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2015-01-04 4:17 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 8+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2014-12-15 5:04 Call for ideas for future musl-related talks Rich Felker 2014-12-28 16:24 ` Justin Cormack 2014-12-29 0:29 ` Szabolcs Nagy 2014-12-30 19:45 ` Rich Felker 2014-12-30 22:11 ` Laurent Bercot 2014-12-31 7:12 ` Natanael Copa 2014-12-30 19:32 ` Rich Felker 2015-01-04 4:17 ` Rich Felker
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this public inbox https://git.vuxu.org/mirror/musl/ This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox; as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).