* Call for locales maintainer & contributors @ 2014-07-24 19:32 Rich Felker 2014-07-26 13:27 ` Olivier Goudron 0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Rich Felker @ 2014-07-24 19:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: musl With the upcoming locale support in musl 1.1.4, there's going to be a need to create and maintain locale files for use with musl. This is not a task I want to take on myself; I feel like it will take away too much time and concentration from actual further development of musl and future projects. So I'm looking for someone interested in maintaining this aspect of musl. I believe it can (and probably should) be an entirely out-of-tree project. The intent is for locale files not to be version-specific, although they may need some updates for future versions of musl when new messages are added or some of the English messages change. Otherwise the main task involved is working with users who want to add full translations or just localized time, monetary, collation, etc. data. Since I expect locale support to be somewhat "experimental" in 1.1.4 (note: this should not interfere with existing deployments since the LC_* vars are basically ignored when MUSL_LOCPATH is not set), I don't think it's urgent that we get locales created and published right away. It can be more of an ongoing process. Over the next day or two I should be committing the rest of the source-level support needed for LC_TIME and LC_MESSAGES to work. LC_COLLATE and LC_MONETARY might or might not make it into this release; I'd rather omit them for now and do them right later than have something hackish in a release that we feel obligated to continute to support. So early efforts should probably just be focused on translating day/month names and related formats and the libc messages. Rich ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: Call for locales maintainer & contributors 2014-07-24 19:32 Call for locales maintainer & contributors Rich Felker @ 2014-07-26 13:27 ` Olivier Goudron 2014-07-26 21:27 ` Wermut 0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Olivier Goudron @ 2014-07-26 13:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: musl [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1801 bytes --] Hello, I don't know how locale files work but i can help for the french translation if needed. Olivier. 2014-07-24 21:32 GMT+02:00 Rich Felker <dalias@libc.org>: > With the upcoming locale support in musl 1.1.4, there's going to be a > need to create and maintain locale files for use with musl. This is > not a task I want to take on myself; I feel like it will take away too > much time and concentration from actual further development of musl > and future projects. So I'm looking for someone interested in > maintaining this aspect of musl. > > I believe it can (and probably should) be an entirely out-of-tree > project. The intent is for locale files not to be version-specific, > although they may need some updates for future versions of musl when > new messages are added or some of the English messages change. > Otherwise the main task involved is working with users who want to add > full translations or just localized time, monetary, collation, etc. > data. > > Since I expect locale support to be somewhat "experimental" in 1.1.4 > (note: this should not interfere with existing deployments since the > LC_* vars are basically ignored when MUSL_LOCPATH is not set), I don't > think it's urgent that we get locales created and published right > away. It can be more of an ongoing process. Over the next day or two I > should be committing the rest of the source-level support needed for > LC_TIME and LC_MESSAGES to work. LC_COLLATE and LC_MONETARY might or > might not make it into this release; I'd rather omit them for now and > do them right later than have something hackish in a release that we > feel obligated to continute to support. So early efforts should > probably just be focused on translating day/month names and related > formats and the libc messages. > > Rich > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2294 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: Call for locales maintainer & contributors 2014-07-26 13:27 ` Olivier Goudron @ 2014-07-26 21:27 ` Wermut 2014-07-27 3:27 ` Rich Felker 0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Wermut @ 2014-07-26 21:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: musl Hi I don't like the idea of an entirely new tree of locale data written from scratch. Glibc has one (with a lot of unmaintained data) and then there is also the CLDR repository which aims to be the central source for such data, maintained by unicode. The CLDR data is also used as a basis for the Microsoft and Apple locale files and is often maintained by national language experts. What I could offer is an effort to write some magic code that imports the actual CLDR data and converts the relevant information to the musl formatted ones. The CLDR data is freely available from: http://cldr.unicode.org/index/downloads Contribution is not completely open, but you normally interested people get access if they want to. I got mine within a week. This is only a suggestion open to discussion. What do you guys think about it? Regards Kevin On Sat, Jul 26, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Olivier Goudron <olivier.goudron@gmail.com> wrote: > Hello, > I don't know how locale files work but i can help for the french translation > if needed. > > Olivier. > > > > 2014-07-24 21:32 GMT+02:00 Rich Felker <dalias@libc.org>: > >> With the upcoming locale support in musl 1.1.4, there's going to be a >> need to create and maintain locale files for use with musl. This is >> not a task I want to take on myself; I feel like it will take away too >> much time and concentration from actual further development of musl >> and future projects. So I'm looking for someone interested in >> maintaining this aspect of musl. >> >> I believe it can (and probably should) be an entirely out-of-tree >> project. The intent is for locale files not to be version-specific, >> although they may need some updates for future versions of musl when >> new messages are added or some of the English messages change. >> Otherwise the main task involved is working with users who want to add >> full translations or just localized time, monetary, collation, etc. >> data. >> >> Since I expect locale support to be somewhat "experimental" in 1.1.4 >> (note: this should not interfere with existing deployments since the >> LC_* vars are basically ignored when MUSL_LOCPATH is not set), I don't >> think it's urgent that we get locales created and published right >> away. It can be more of an ongoing process. Over the next day or two I >> should be committing the rest of the source-level support needed for >> LC_TIME and LC_MESSAGES to work. LC_COLLATE and LC_MONETARY might or >> might not make it into this release; I'd rather omit them for now and >> do them right later than have something hackish in a release that we >> feel obligated to continute to support. So early efforts should >> probably just be focused on translating day/month names and related >> formats and the libc messages. >> >> Rich > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: Call for locales maintainer & contributors 2014-07-26 21:27 ` Wermut @ 2014-07-27 3:27 ` Rich Felker 2014-07-27 19:43 ` Wermut 0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Rich Felker @ 2014-07-27 3:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: musl On Sat, Jul 26, 2014 at 11:27:38PM +0200, Wermut wrote: > Hi > > I don't like the idea of an entirely new tree of locale data written > from scratch. Glibc has one (with a lot of unmaintained data) and then > there is also the CLDR repository which aims to be the central source > for such data, maintained by unicode. The CLDR data is also used as a > basis for the Microsoft and Apple locale files and is often maintained > by national language experts. What I could offer is an effort to write > some magic code that imports the actual CLDR data and converts the > relevant information to the musl formatted ones. The CLDR data is > freely available from: http://cldr.unicode.org/index/downloads I have no objection to using data from CLDR if there's no restrictive license, but at first glance it looks like most of the data is outside the scope of the C/POSIX locale system. What we need is: 1. Weekday and month names (full and abbreviated) - these should almost certainly be available from CLDR or other public sources. 2. Time format strings for strftime - unless CLDR has C-oriented data like that, these might not be available in a form that's easy to automatically adapt. Research on this topic is welcome. 3. Regexes for yes and no responses - seems unlikely to be in CLDR, but again I'd be happy for someone to prove me wrong. 4. Translations of the message strings in libc. Note that musl's strings already deviate some from the legacy strings used on glibc and other systems. For example the strerror strings are adjusted to align more closely with the POSIX description and the actual situations they arise in than the legacy strings (like "Not a typewriter"). I'd like to aim to have our translated strings equally modernized. And before really spending a lot of work on these we should review the English strings again for possible improvements and missing messages (I think some newer error codes may be missing). 5. Collation rules - these almost certainly can come from Unicode/CLDR but musl does not even support collation yet. 6. Monetary formatting and currency names - these almost certain can come from CLDR or other public sources, but again the code to use the data isn't there yet. > Contribution is not completely open, but you normally interested > people get access if they want to. I got mine within a week. > > This is only a suggestion open to discussion. What do you guys think about it? Overall I like it. But I think we still need a maintainer to manage pulling the data, maintaining string translations for messages, etc. Any comments on my items 1-6 above? Rich ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: Call for locales maintainer & contributors 2014-07-27 3:27 ` Rich Felker @ 2014-07-27 19:43 ` Wermut 2014-07-27 20:41 ` Rich Felker 2014-07-28 3:12 ` Isaac Dunham 0 siblings, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Wermut @ 2014-07-27 19:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: musl [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3860 bytes --] Hi With the exception of the musl translation itself, I think the most parts are doable. My problem at the moment is, that I am not a C hero like you guys and don't know exactly how these locale files should look like (file format, content). As a consequence fully answering your questions is non trivial at the moment. I can do some research and do some dirty work, but first I would need a sample locale file in the musl format, or some documentation to get kick started. I have worked in the past and even created locale files for glibc and cldr, so I am at least not a complete newbie on the topic. Unfortunately I have not enough time to act as a maintainer, but I could periodically help out if someone stands up and take the lead. For the translation of musl itself: Do you plan to add a *.pot file to the musl repository? Regards Kevin On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 5:27 AM, Rich Felker <dalias@libc.org> wrote: > On Sat, Jul 26, 2014 at 11:27:38PM +0200, Wermut wrote: >> Hi >> >> I don't like the idea of an entirely new tree of locale data written >> from scratch. Glibc has one (with a lot of unmaintained data) and then >> there is also the CLDR repository which aims to be the central source >> for such data, maintained by unicode. The CLDR data is also used as a >> basis for the Microsoft and Apple locale files and is often maintained >> by national language experts. What I could offer is an effort to write >> some magic code that imports the actual CLDR data and converts the >> relevant information to the musl formatted ones. The CLDR data is >> freely available from: http://cldr.unicode.org/index/downloads > > I have no objection to using data from CLDR if there's no restrictive > license, but at first glance it looks like most of the data is outside > the scope of the C/POSIX locale system. What we need is: CLDR license (botom of the page): http://unicode.org/copyright.html I my eyes this is a BSD like license. If somebody thinks the license is not OK, please say so. Copy is attached to this mail. > > 1. Weekday and month names (full and abbreviated) - these should > almost certainly be available from CLDR or other public sources. > > 2. Time format strings for strftime - unless CLDR has C-oriented data > like that, these might not be available in a form that's easy to > automatically adapt. Research on this topic is welcome. > > 3. Regexes for yes and no responses - seems unlikely to be in CLDR, > but again I'd be happy for someone to prove me wrong. > > 4. Translations of the message strings in libc. Note that musl's > strings already deviate some from the legacy strings used on glibc > and other systems. For example the strerror strings are adjusted to > align more closely with the POSIX description and the actual > situations they arise in than the legacy strings (like "Not a > typewriter"). I'd like to aim to have our translated strings > equally modernized. And before really spending a lot of work on > these we should review the English strings again for possible > improvements and missing messages (I think some newer error codes > may be missing). > > 5. Collation rules - these almost certainly can come from Unicode/CLDR > but musl does not even support collation yet. > > 6. Monetary formatting and currency names - these almost certain can > come from CLDR or other public sources, but again the code to use > the data isn't there yet. > >> Contribution is not completely open, but you normally interested >> people get access if they want to. I got mine within a week. >> >> This is only a suggestion open to discussion. What do you guys think about it? > > Overall I like it. But I think we still need a maintainer to manage > pulling the data, maintaining string translations for messages, etc. > Any comments on my items 1-6 above? > > Rich [-- Attachment #2: unicode-license.txt --] [-- Type: text/plain, Size: 2933 bytes --] UNICODE, INC. LICENSE AGREEMENT - DATA FILES AND SOFTWARE Unicode Data Files include all data files under the directories http://www.unicode.org/Public/, http://www.unicode.org/reports/, and http://www.unicode.org/cldr/data/. Unicode Data Files do not include PDF online code charts under the directory http://www.unicode.org/Public/. Software includes any source code published in the Unicode Standard or under the directories http://www.unicode.org/Public/, http://www.unicode.org/reports/, and http://www.unicode.org/cldr/data/. NOTICE TO USER: Carefully read the following legal agreement. BY DOWNLOADING, INSTALLING, COPYING OR OTHERWISE USING UNICODE INC.'S DATA FILES ("DATA FILES"), AND/OR SOFTWARE ("SOFTWARE"), YOU UNEQUIVOCALLY ACCEPT, AND AGREE TO BE BOUND BY, ALL OF THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT DOWNLOAD, INSTALL, COPY, DISTRIBUTE OR USE THE DATA FILES OR SOFTWARE. COPYRIGHT AND PERMISSION NOTICE Copyright © 1991-2014 Unicode, Inc. All rights reserved. Distributed under the Terms of Use in http://www.unicode.org/copyright.html. Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy of the Unicode data files and any associated documentation (the "Data Files") or Unicode software and any associated documentation (the "Software") to deal in the Data Files or Software without restriction, including without limitation the rights to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, and/or sell copies of the Data Files or Software, and to permit persons to whom the Data Files or Software are furnished to do so, provided that (a) the above copyright notice(s) and this permission notice appear with all copies of the Data Files or Software, (b) both the above copyright notice(s) and this permission notice appear in associated documentation, and (c) there is clear notice in each modified Data File or in the Software as well as in the documentation associated with the Data File(s) or Software that the data or software has been modified. THE DATA FILES AND SOFTWARE ARE PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT HOLDER OR HOLDERS INCLUDED IN THIS NOTICE BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, OR ANY SPECIAL INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE, DATA OR PROFITS, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION, ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THE DATA FILES OR SOFTWARE. Except as contained in this notice, the name of a copyright holder shall not be used in advertising or otherwise to promote the sale, use or other dealings in these Data Files or Software without prior written authorization of the copyright holder. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: Call for locales maintainer & contributors 2014-07-27 19:43 ` Wermut @ 2014-07-27 20:41 ` Rich Felker 2014-07-28 3:12 ` Isaac Dunham 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Rich Felker @ 2014-07-27 20:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: musl On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 09:43:34PM +0200, Wermut wrote: > Hi > > With the exception of the musl translation itself, I think the most > parts are doable. My problem at the moment is, that I am not a C hero > like you guys and don't know exactly how these locale files should > look like (file format, content). As a consequence fully answering > your questions is non trivial at the moment. I can do some research > and do some dirty work, but first I would need a sample locale file in > the musl format, or some documentation to get kick started. I have > worked in the past and even created locale files for glibc and cldr, > so I am at least not a complete newbie on the topic. > > Unfortunately I have not enough time to act as a maintainer, but I > could periodically help out if someone stands up and take the lead. > > For the translation of musl itself: Do you plan to add a *.pot file to > the musl repository? Is a .pot file a "template" .po file for translation purposes? If so, I think this would be a very reasonable thing to add, but somebody needs to make it. Making that might actually be the best place to start for someone interested in getting translations going. Rich ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: Call for locales maintainer & contributors 2014-07-27 19:43 ` Wermut 2014-07-27 20:41 ` Rich Felker @ 2014-07-28 3:12 ` Isaac Dunham 2014-07-28 3:28 ` Rich Felker 1 sibling, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Isaac Dunham @ 2014-07-28 3:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: musl On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 09:43:34PM +0200, Wermut wrote: > CLDR license (botom of the page): http://unicode.org/copyright.html I > my eyes this is a BSD like license. If somebody thinks the license is > not OK, please say so. Copy is attached to this mail. Comments below. > UNICODE, INC. LICENSE AGREEMENT - DATA FILES AND SOFTWARE > > Unicode Data Files include all data files under the directories > http://www.unicode.org/Public/, http://www.unicode.org/reports/, and > http://www.unicode.org/cldr/data/. Unicode Data Files do not include PDF > online code charts under the directory http://www.unicode.org/Public/. > Software includes any source code published in the Unicode Standard or under > the directories http://www.unicode.org/Public/, > http://www.unicode.org/reports/, and http://www.unicode.org/cldr/data/. > > NOTICE TO USER: Carefully read the following legal agreement. BY > DOWNLOADING, INSTALLING, COPYING OR OTHERWISE USING UNICODE INC.'S DATA FILES > ("DATA FILES"), AND/OR SOFTWARE ("SOFTWARE"), YOU UNEQUIVOCALLY ACCEPT, AND > AGREE TO BE BOUND BY, ALL OF THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT. IF > YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT DOWNLOAD, INSTALL, COPY, DISTRIBUTE OR USE THE DATA > FILES OR SOFTWARE. > > COPYRIGHT AND PERMISSION NOTICE > > Copyright © 1991-2014 Unicode, Inc. All rights reserved. Distributed under > the Terms of Use in http://www.unicode.org/copyright.html. > > Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a > copy of the Unicode data files and any associated documentation (the "Data > Files") or Unicode software and any associated documentation (the "Software") > to deal in the Data Files or Software without restriction, including without > limitation the rights to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, and/or > sell copies of the Data Files or Software, and to permit persons to whom the > Data Files or Software are furnished to do so, provided that (a) the above > copyright notice(s) and this permission notice appear with all copies of the > Data Files or Software, (b) both the above copyright notice(s) and this > permission notice appear in associated documentation, and (c) there is clear > notice in each modified Data File or in the Software as well as in the > documentation associated with the Data File(s) or Software that the data or > software has been modified. (a): this makes it in between Sleepycat and BSD (explicit transfer of right to modify, without mandating transfer of source). I *think* this shouldn't be a problem, especially considering that Apple and MS would seem to be fine with it. (b): could possibly end up being tedious for those who distribute .mo alongside a static binary, but probably not very bad. But most importantly: (c): If I understand correctly, this _MANDATES_ a comment field in the .mo format (to note copyright, modifications, etc.) > > THE DATA FILES AND SOFTWARE ARE PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY > KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF > MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT OF THIRD > PARTY RIGHTS. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT HOLDER OR HOLDERS INCLUDED IN > THIS NOTICE BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, OR ANY SPECIAL INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL > DAMAGES, OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE, DATA OR > PROFITS, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER TORTIOUS > ACTION, ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THE > DATA FILES OR SOFTWARE. > > Except as contained in this notice, the name of a copyright holder shall > not be used in advertising or otherwise to promote the sale, use or other > dealings in these Data Files or Software without prior written authorization > of the copyright holder. Overall: I have no objection to this, but thought I'd point out the technical implications that I noticed. I note the download/copy rules could possibly make mirrors/redistributors potentially vulnerable to "secondary infringement" (if they copy someone else's infringing use, they would seem to be liable under the license). But I am not a lawyer; I would be inclined to suggest asking one before making use of CLDR data in musl (I'm wondering if this is likely to prove problematic for those using musl to provide static binaries, and if redistributors of such binaries are likely to be liable, et cetera.) The comment field aspect might be important to vendors even if musl does not use CLDR data, since a vendor might use CLDR or similarly licensed data as a source for their own locales. Hope this helps, Isaac Dunham ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: Call for locales maintainer & contributors 2014-07-28 3:12 ` Isaac Dunham @ 2014-07-28 3:28 ` Rich Felker 0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Rich Felker @ 2014-07-28 3:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: musl On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 08:12:17PM -0700, Isaac Dunham wrote: > But most importantly: > (c): If I understand correctly, this _MANDATES_ a comment field in the .mo > format (to note copyright, modifications, etc.) I think that would probably depend on the degree and nature of data used. Basic facts (like the names of countries, currencies, day and month names, etc.) are not subject to copyright; at most, the CLDR compilation and presentation of such data would be, but I see no way this copyright could apply when the identical data could be obtained from other sources. Obviously other things like non-trivial string translations could be subject to copyright, though. Rich ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2014-07-28 3:28 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 8+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2014-07-24 19:32 Call for locales maintainer & contributors Rich Felker 2014-07-26 13:27 ` Olivier Goudron 2014-07-26 21:27 ` Wermut 2014-07-27 3:27 ` Rich Felker 2014-07-27 19:43 ` Wermut 2014-07-27 20:41 ` Rich Felker 2014-07-28 3:12 ` Isaac Dunham 2014-07-28 3:28 ` Rich Felker
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