[NTG-context] Issue with italics

[NTG-context] Issue with italics

[Jean-Pierre Delange]

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Dear list,

When handling the preamble to a document in which I would like to treat the text in French, with sometimes italics text and phrases in ancient Greek, I encounter the following difficulty:
if I use TeX Gyre Pagella as the main font, everything works fine, except for the Ancient Greek text, which I don't like the look of. But the Greek text is displayed, as are the French italics. On the other hand, if I use GFS Didot as the main font and Theano Didot for the Greek, the italics disappear and the Greek text looks better. The CTX version I use is: mtx-context | current version: 2024.01.24 22:39.

Herewith are two MWE attachments (*.tex + *.pdf) with different fonts. What am I missing ? Thanks for your answers.

JP

[-- Attachment #2: ctx-ancient-greek-fonts.tex --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 2045 bytes --]

\mainlanguage[fr,agr]
\definefallbackfamily
    [mainface]
    [rm]
    [Theano Didot]
    [preset=range:greek]
\definefontfamily
    [mainface]
    [rm]
    [TeX Gyre Pagella]
\setupbodyfont[mainface, 11pt]
\setupbodyfontenvironment[default][em=italic]

\starttext
Socrate est descendu au Pirée et affirme sa satisfaction du culte rendu à cette nouvelle déesse par les Thraces; néanmoins, {\em il ne nous dit rien des prières} qu'il a lui-même rendues à la déesse avec les autres participants, dont il fait pourtant état. Sur le chemin du retour, il est arrêté par Polémarque qui leur apprend qu'une retraite aux flambeaux à cheval est prévue par les Thraces, ainsi qu'une fête de nuit \quote{qui vaut la peine d'être vue} (ἣν ἄξιον θεάσασθαι; {\em èn axion théasasthai} - 328a). 
\blank

Κάθε άνθρωπος δικαιούται να επικαλείται όλα τα δικαιώματα και όλες τις ελευθερίες που προκηρύσσει η παρούσα Διακήρυξη, χωρίς καμία απολύτως διάκριση, ειδικότερα ως προς τη φυλή, το χρώμα, το φύλο, τη γλώσσα, τις θρησκείες, τις πολιτικές ή οποιεσδήποτε άλλες πεποιθήσεις, την εθνική ή κοινωνική καταγωγή, την περιουσία, τη γέννηση ή οποιαδήποτε άλλη κατάσταση.

Δεν θα μπορεί ακόμα να γίνεται καμία διάκριση εξαιτίας του πολιτικού, νομικού ή διεθνούς καθεστώτος της χώρας από την οποία προέρχεται κανείς, είτε πρόκειται για χώρα ή εδαφική περιοχή ανεξάρτητη, υπό κηδεμονία ή υπεξουσία, ή που βρίσκεται υπό οποιονδήποτε άλλον περιορισμό κυριαρχίας.
\stoptext

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[-- Attachment #4: ctx-ancient-greek-GFSDidot.tex --]
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\mainlanguage[fr,agr]
\definefallbackfamily
    [mainface]
    [rm]
    [Theano Didot]
    [preset=range:greek]
\definefontfamily
    [mainface]
    [rm]
    [GFS Didot]
\setupbodyfont[mainface, 11pt]
\setupbodyfontenvironment[default][em=italic]

\starttext
Socrate est descendu au Pirée et affirme sa satisfaction du culte rendu à cette nouvelle déesse par les Thraces; néanmoins, {\em il ne nous dit rien des prières} qu'il a lui-même rendues à la déesse avec les autres participants, dont il fait pourtant état. Sur le chemin du retour, il est arrêté par Polémarque qui leur apprend qu'une retraite aux flambeaux à cheval est prévue par les Thraces, ainsi qu'une fête de nuit \quote{qui vaut la peine d'être vue} (ἣν ἄξιον θεάσασθαι; {\em èn axion théasasthai} - 328a). 
\blank

Κάθε άνθρωπος δικαιούται να επικαλείται όλα τα δικαιώματα και όλες τις ελευθερίες που προκηρύσσει η παρούσα Διακήρυξη, χωρίς καμία απολύτως διάκριση, ειδικότερα ως προς τη φυλή, το χρώμα, το φύλο, τη γλώσσα, τις θρησκείες, τις πολιτικές ή οποιεσδήποτε άλλες πεποιθήσεις, την εθνική ή κοινωνική καταγωγή, την περιουσία, τη γέννηση ή οποιαδήποτε άλλη κατάσταση.

Δεν θα μπορεί ακόμα να γίνεται καμία διάκριση εξαιτίας του πολιτικού, νομικού ή διεθνούς καθεστώτος της χώρας από την οποία προέρχεται κανείς, είτε πρόκειται για χώρα ή εδαφική περιοχή ανεξάρτητη, υπό κηδεμονία ή υπεξουσία, ή που βρίσκεται υπό οποιονδήποτε άλλον περιορισμό κυριαρχίας.
\stoptext

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[NTG-context] Re: Issue with italics

[Denis Maier via ntg-context]

I don't know, but maybe GFS Didot has not italic shape?
At least, that's what I'd guess after looking at this https://fonts.google.com/specimen/GFS+Didot (maybe your version has italics...)

Best,
Denis

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Jean-Pierre Delange <adeimantos@free.fr>
> Gesendet: Montag, 26. Februar 2024 13:32
> An: mailing list for ConTeXt users <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
> Betreff: [NTG-context] Issue with italics
> 
> Dear list,
> 
> When handling the preamble to a document in which I would like to treat the
> text in French, with sometimes italics text and phrases in ancient Greek, I
> encounter the following difficulty:
> if I use TeX Gyre Pagella as the main font, everything works fine, except for the
> Ancient Greek text, which I don't like the look of. But the Greek text is
> displayed, as are the French italics. On the other hand, if I use GFS Didot as the
> main font and Theano Didot for the Greek, the italics disappear and the Greek
> text looks better. The CTX version I use is: mtx-context | current version:
> 2024.01.24 22:39.
> 
> Herewith are two MWE attachments (*.tex + *.pdf) with different fonts. What
> am I missing ? Thanks for your answers.
> 
> JP

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[NTG-context] Re: Issue with italics

[Denis Maier via ntg-context]

Nevermind, I just found this: https://mirror.init7.net/ctan/fonts/greek/gfs/gfsdidot/doc/DidotSpecimen.pdf
So there should be italics...
Sorry for the noise.

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Denis Maier via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
> Gesendet: Montag, 26. Februar 2024 14:04
> An: 'mailing list for ConTeXt users' <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
> Cc: denismaier@mailbox.org
> Betreff: [NTG-context] Re: Issue with italics
> 
> I don't know, but maybe GFS Didot has not italic shape?
> At least, that's what I'd guess after looking at this
> https://fonts.google.com/specimen/GFS+Didot (maybe your version has
> italics...)
> 
> Best,
> Denis
> 
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Jean-Pierre Delange <adeimantos@free.fr>
> > Gesendet: Montag, 26. Februar 2024 13:32
> > An: mailing list for ConTeXt users <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
> > Betreff: [NTG-context] Issue with italics
> >
> > Dear list,
> >
> > When handling the preamble to a document in which I would like to
> > treat the text in French, with sometimes italics text and phrases in
> > ancient Greek, I encounter the following difficulty:
> > if I use TeX Gyre Pagella as the main font, everything works fine,
> > except for the Ancient Greek text, which I don't like the look of. But
> > the Greek text is displayed, as are the French italics. On the other
> > hand, if I use GFS Didot as the main font and Theano Didot for the
> > Greek, the italics disappear and the Greek text looks better. The CTX version I
> use is: mtx-context | current version:
> > 2024.01.24 22:39.
> >
> > Herewith are two MWE attachments (*.tex + *.pdf) with different fonts.
> > What am I missing ? Thanks for your answers.
> >
> > JP
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________
> ________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
> Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-
> context.ntg.nl
> webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror)
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> ___________________________________________________________________
> ________________

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[NTG-context] Re: Issue with italics

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

I just tried your example with the latest version of GFSDidot (the older version I had on my system did not show some diacritics; this problem disappeared when I installed the latest), and the italics are there, I don’t see any problem in the pdf. If you want the Greek displayed in Theano, you will have to add “force=yes” to your definition of the fallback family:

\definefallbackfamily
    [mainface]
    [rm]
    [Theano Didot]
    [preset=range:greek,force=yes]

Your text cannot have two main languages, so 

\mainlanguage[fr]

If you want hyphenation for your Greek passages, you can add

\setuplanguage [fr] [patterns={fr,agr}]

The line where you have polytonic Greek does not use precomposed characters, but combinations of greek characters and diacritics; this will probably not work in recent context versions that expect actual unicode input. 

I hope I have really understood what you want: GFSDIdot for the French text and Theano for Greek?

HTH

Thomas

> On 26. Feb 2024, at 13:32, Jean-Pierre Delange <adeimantos@free.fr> wrote:
> 
> Dear list,
> 
> When handling the preamble to a document in which I would like to treat the text in French, with sometimes italics text and phrases in ancient Greek, I encounter the following difficulty:
> if I use TeX Gyre Pagella as the main font, everything works fine, except for the Ancient Greek text, which I don't like the look of. But the Greek text is displayed, as are the French italics. On the other hand, if I use GFS Didot as the main font and Theano Didot for the Greek, the italics disappear and the Greek text looks better. The CTX version I use is: mtx-context | current version: 2024.01.24 22:39.
> 
> Herewith are two MWE attachments (*.tex + *.pdf) with different fonts. What am I missing ? Thanks for your answers.
> 
> JP



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[NTG-context] Re: Issue with italics

[Jean-Pierre Delange]

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Thanks to Thomas and Denis,

That's it: use GFS Didot for the French text and Theano Didot for the 
Greek. In my working text I have this preamble (and other things):

\setuplanguage[fr][patterns={fr,agr}]
\mainlanguage[fr]
\setcharacterspacing[frenchpunctuation]]
\setuplayout [backspace=40mm]
\setuppagenumbering[alternative=doublesided, location={header, inmargin}]
\setupmargindata[inmargin][location=inner, 
style={setupinterlinespace[line=2.8ex]}]
\setupmarginframed[inmargin][align=right]
\setupbodyfontenvironment[default][em=italic]
\definefallbackfamily[mainface][rm][Theano 
Didot][preset=range:greek,force=yes]
\definefontfamily[mainface][rm][GFS Didot]
\setupbodyfont[mainface, 11pt]

I'm currently working on MS Windows 11 for the moment (as a test beside 
Linux). I didn't try to compile this text under Linux, but I don't think 
there is an issue with the OS.

As far as GFS Didot is concerned, I have installed the most recent 
version. But what amazes me the most is that by only keeping a font like 
EBGaramond without writing :
\definefallbackfamily
  [mainface]
[rm]
[Theano Didot]
[preset=range:greek,force=yes]
So, using EBGaramond only, I have the French text (with italics), as 
well as the Greek text...

Try this :

\setuplanguage

\mainlanguage[fr,agr]

\definefontfamily

[mainface]

[rm]

[EBGaramond]

\setupbodyfont[mainface, 12pt]

\setupbodyfontenvironment[default][em=italic]


\starttext

Socrate est descendu au Pirée et affirme sa satisfaction du culte rendu 
à cette nouvelle déesse par les Thraces; néanmoins, {\em il ne nous dit 
rien des prières} qu'il a lui-même rendues à la déesse avec les autres 
participants, dont il fait pourtant état. Sur le chemin du retour, il 
est arrêté par Polémarque qui leur apprend qu'une retraite aux flambeaux 
à cheval est prévue par les Thraces, ainsi qu'une fête de nuit 
\quote{qui vaut la peine d'être vue} (ἣν ἄξιον θεάσασθαι; {\em èn 
axion théasasthai} - 328a).

\blank


Κάθε άνθρωπος δικαιούται να επικαλείται όλα τα δικαιώματα και όλες τις 
ελευθερίες που προκηρύσσει η παρούσα Διακήρυξη, χωρίς καμία απολύτως 
διάκριση, ειδικότερα ως προς τη φυλή, το χρώμα, το φύλο, τη γλώσσα, τις 
θρησκείες, τις πολιτικές ή οποιεσδήποτε άλλες πεποιθήσεις, την εθνική ή 
κοινωνική καταγωγή, την περιουσία, τη γέννηση ή οποιαδήποτε άλλη κατάσταση.


Δεν θα μπορεί ακόμα να γίνεται καμία διάκριση εξαιτίας του πολιτικού, 
νομικού ή διεθνούς καθεστώτος της χώρας από την οποία προέρχεται κανείς, 
είτε πρόκειται για χώρα ή εδαφική περιοχή ανεξάρτητη, υπό κηδεμονία ή 
υπεξουσία, ή που βρίσκεται υπό οποιονδήποτε άλλον περιορισμό κυριαρχίας.

\stoptext


I've found a solution, with Segoeui (Windows font) as the main font and 
Theano Didot for the Greek text.
But I don't understand why setting the fonts to GFS Didot and Theano 
Didot prevents italics from being displayed ...


Best//JP





Le 26/02/2024 à 15:02, Thomas A. Schmitz a écrit :
> I just tried your example with the latest version of GFSDidot (the older version I had on my system did not show some diacritics; this problem disappeared when I installed the latest), and the italics are there, I don’t see any problem in the pdf. If you want the Greek displayed in Theano, you will have to add “force=yes” to your definition of the fallback family:
>
> \definefallbackfamily
>      [mainface]
>      [rm]
>      [Theano Didot]
>      [preset=range:greek,force=yes]
>
> Your text cannot have two main languages, so
>
> \mainlanguage[fr]
>
> If you want hyphenation for your Greek passages, you can add
>
> \setuplanguage [fr] [patterns={fr,agr}]
>
> The line where you have polytonic Greek does not use precomposed characters, but combinations of greek characters and diacritics; this will probably not work in recent context versions that expect actual unicode input.
>
> I hope I have really understood what you want: GFSDIdot for the French text and Theano for Greek?
>
> HTH
>
> Thomas
>
>> On 26. Feb 2024, at 13:32, Jean-Pierre Delange<adeimantos@free.fr>  wrote:
>>
>> Dear list,
>>
>> When handling the preamble to a document in which I would like to treat the text in French, with sometimes italics text and phrases in ancient Greek, I encounter the following difficulty:
>> if I use TeX Gyre Pagella as the main font, everything works fine, except for the Ancient Greek text, which I don't like the look of. But the Greek text is displayed, as are the French italics. On the other hand, if I use GFS Didot as the main font and Theano Didot for the Greek, the italics disappear and the Greek text looks better. The CTX version I use is: mtx-context | current version: 2024.01.24 22:39.
>>
>> Herewith are two MWE attachments (*.tex + *.pdf) with different fonts. What am I missing ? Thanks for your answers.
>>
>> JP
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist :ntg-context@ntg.nl  /https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________

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___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] Re: Issue with italics

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Jean-Pierre Delange schrieb am 26.02.2024 um 18:41:
> Thanks to Thomas and Denis,
> 
> That's it: use GFS Didot for the French text and Theano Didot for the 
> Greek. In my working text I have this preamble (and other things):
> 
> [...]
> 
> I've found a solution, with Segoeui (Windows font) as the main font and 
> Theano Didot for the Greek text.
> But I don't understand why setting the fonts to GFS Didot and Theano 
> Didot prevents italics from being displayed ...


Can you show the output of the following command on the terminal which 
lists all available font files for GFS Didot:

     mtxrun --script fonts --list --all --pattern=gfsdidot*

Wolfgang
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___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] Re: Issue with italics

[Jean-Pierre Delange]

Le 26/02/2024 à 18:53, Wolfgang Schuster a écrit :
> mtxrun --script fonts --list --all --pattern=gfsdidot*

Wolfgang,

You're right, here below the lack of italics typeface

identifier               familyname        fontname 
filename               subfont   instances

gfsdidot                 gfsdidot          gfsdidotregular 
GFSDidot-Regular.ttf
gfsdidotclassic          gfsdidotclassic   gfsdidotclassic 
GFSDidot_Classic.otf
gfsdidotclassicnormal    gfsdidotclassic   gfsdidotclassic 
GFSDidot_Classic.otf
gfsdidotclassicregular   gfsdidotclassic   gfsdidotclassic 
GFSDidot_Classic.otf
gfsdidotnormal           gfsdidot          gfsdidotregular 
GFSDidot-Regular.ttf
gfsdidotregular          gfsdidot          gfsdidotregular 
GFSDidot-Regular.ttf

After installing the whole stuff, I have :

identifier               familyname        fontname 
filename                 subfont   instances

gfsdidotbold             gfsdidot          gfsdidotbold GFSDidotBold.otf
gfsdidotbolditalic       gfsdidot          gfsdidotbolditalic 
GFSDidotBoldItalic.otf
gfsdidotclassic          gfsdidotclassic   gfsdidotclassic 
GFSDidot_Classic.otf
gfsdidotclassicnormal    gfsdidotclassic   gfsdidotclassic 
GFSDidot_Classic.otf
gfsdidotclassicregular   gfsdidotclassic   gfsdidotclassic 
GFSDidot_Classic.otf
gfsdidotitalic           gfsdidot          gfsdidotitalic GFSDidotItalic.otf
gfsdidotnormal           gfsdidot          gfsdidotregular GFSDidot.otf
gfsdidotregular          gfsdidot          gfsdidotregular GFSDidot.otf

And of course the MWE is now giving the expected result ...
I'm really sorry about the noise: I was sure I'd installed all the font 
faces correctly.
Many thanks Wolfgang.

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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
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