[TUHS] OT: TUHS mails not going to Outlook & Hotmail. Help!

[TUHS] OT: TUHS mails not going to Outlook & Hotmail. Help!

[Warren Toomey via TUHS]

All, e-mails from the TUHS server are not making it to Hotmail or Outlook.
I've not changed anything. Is there anybody with some MTA/ISP experience
who might be able to help diagnose the problem?

Thanks, Warren

[TUHS] Re: OT: TUHS mails not going to Outlook & Hotmail. Help!

[Jim Capp]

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I've had this issue before. Problem was resolved for me by setting up SPF records in DNS. 


In any case, the key to resolution is to inspect the bounce back messages. 


Forward to me directly if you like. 


J 


From: "Warren Toomey via TUHS" <tuhs@tuhs.org> 
To: tuhs@tuhs.org 
Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2023 7:46:51 PM 
Subject: [TUHS] OT: TUHS mails not going to Outlook & Hotmail. Help! 

All, e-mails from the TUHS server are not making it to Hotmail or Outlook. 
I've not changed anything. Is there anybody with some MTA/ISP experience 
who might be able to help diagnose the problem? 

Thanks, Warren 

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[TUHS] Re: OT: TUHS mails not going to Outlook & Hotmail. Help!

[Gregg Levine]

Hello!
Warren that was the same problem sending stuff from the list to my
originally subscribed address hansolofalcon@att.net originally
everything arrived, then there were a few dropped messages. Finally
the discussion that Dan Cross got started on his project was largely
not sent at all in the beginning, and that's what did it.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 7:47 PM Warren Toomey via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
>
> All, e-mails from the TUHS server are not making it to Hotmail or Outlook.
> I've not changed anything. Is there anybody with some MTA/ISP experience
> who might be able to help diagnose the problem?
>
> Thanks, Warren

[TUHS] Re: OT: TUHS mails not going to Outlook & Hotmail. Help!

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

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On Wednesday,  3 May 2023 at 20:33:47 -0400, Jim Capp wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 7:46:51 PM, Warren Toomey wrote:
>
>> All, e-mails from the TUHS server are not making it to Hotmail or
>> Outlook.  I've not changed anything. Is there anybody with some
>> MTA/ISP experience who might be able to help diagnose the problem?
>
> I've had this issue before. Problem was resolved for me by setting
> up SPF records in DNS.

That's only part of it.  SPF can be a problem with mailing lists.  For
example, tuhs.org doesn't appear in the SPF record for anteil.com.

There's also DMARC to worry about, but so far I haven't found anything
that satisfies all these Big Businesses.

> In any case, the key to resolution is to inspect the bounce back
> messages.

Many are too polite to tell you the errors of your ways.  From memory,
outlook.com does, but Telstra BigPond doesn't.

Another thing I've been trying is changing the sending MTA from my own
(mail.lemis.com) to my ISP's MTA.  I don't know for sure if it makes
any difference.  My own server gives me the "delivered" messages, but
the ISP server just says "delivered to spam check service" or some
such.

I fear that we oldtimers no longer fit in the Internet of the 2020s,
and to communicate with modern people we'll have to use Gmail or some
such.  O brave new world!

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
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[TUHS] Re: OT: TUHS mails not going to Outlook & Hotmail. Help!

[Brad Spencer]

Warren Toomey via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> writes:

> All, e-mails from the TUHS server are not making it to Hotmail or Outlook.
> I've not changed anything. Is there anybody with some MTA/ISP experience
> who might be able to help diagnose the problem?
>
> Thanks, Warren

There is a lot that could be and without more information it will be
next to impossible to determine what the problem or problems may be.

The first question is are you getting bounces, or is the message just
getting black holed??  From the TUHS sending server, can you send an
email from the command line (for example) outside of the list management
software to a known address that could not receive email from the list
itself??  If this direct message (just to give it a name) does not make
it, then it could indicate that the receiver has blocked the TUHS server
(for a ton of possible reasons).  If this direct message does make it,
but email from the list management software does not, then it is likely
that something about how the message is processed (i.e. altered) is
triggering the block.

A few others have mentioned DMARC, but DKIM may be involved.  More or
less, if the original sender uses any of the signed email techniques
that exist and the TUHS server alters any part of the message it will
likely cause the message to fail the signature check.  This may include
altering the Subject and the From if these bits of the header were
covered by the signature.  I am by no means an expert here, but am on a
number of email lists and this problem comes up from time to time and
there has been debate on how or if the list management software should
mess with the message.

Of course, I would also check to make sure that the message actually
made it off of the TUHS server itself.  That is, the message isn't
sitting in the local queue having failed to contact the destination
email server??

Other stranger stuff..  from my logs of incoming TUHS email it looks
like you can send via IPv4 and IPv6...  is it only one of those sending
addresses that fail?? (This may be hard to determine, I realize, but it
may be the case that the receiver can't receive one of the addresses
families correctly, probably IPv6 if there is a problem).  It doesn't
look like you are using TLS as a email client sending back out.  Is it
possible for you to do that??  It might help.  I know that some of the
stuff I use to keep SPAM out gives a greater credibility to clients that
come in via TLS and have a valid certificate where the cert chain
validates completely.  (I won't debate whether or not this is a good
idea or even useful given how simple it is to get Let's Encrypt certs
for free, just mostly mentioning that it happens).



I am not at all an expert on this topic, but have had my own email
domain since 1993 and have seen a whole lot of really strange stuff.





-- 
Brad Spencer - brad@anduin.eldar.org - KC8VKS - http://anduin.eldar.org

[TUHS] Re: OT: TUHS mails not going to Outlook & Hotmail. Help!

[Mehdi Sadeghi via TUHS]

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There is also https://sender.office.com/ for delisting IP addresses for office 365 and https://www.mail-tester.com/ for testing the mail server score (by sending one email to a unique address). Hope it helps.

Mehdi

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[TUHS] OT: Nostr Protocol. (Was: OT: TUHS mails not going to Outlook & Hotmail. Help!)

[Ralph Corderoy]

Hi,

Greg wrote:
> I fear that we oldtimers no longer fit in the Internet of the 2020s,
> and to communicate with modern people we'll have to use Gmail or some
> such.  O brave new world!

SMTP email originally had dumb servers and smart clients.  The servers
had to know enough to route, but much was left to the client allowing
experimentation, tailoring, etc.

The Facebook, Twitter, ... silos are smart servers and dumb clients.
The power shifted.

There's a new simple protocol, Nostr.  A client is smart and creates
‘events’ which are pushed to its choice of relays.  A note is signed
using a cryptographic key pair.  The public key is the user's identity.
Or rather one of them.  A relay is very dumb.  It just stores the note
and gives it to any client who comes asking.  Different types of events
are being standardised.  Clients can gain ever more smarts for dealing
with different kinds of events.

Nostr isn't tied to a particular company; it's a protocol.  It's gaining
traction, e.g. Twitter co-founder Jack Dorsey has been using it for a
while.  You'll see public keys in bios, e.g. the npub... in
https://twitter.com/jack/

https://nostr.com is one rabbit hole.

I suggest any further chat about Nostr moves to coff@tuhs.org.

-- 
Cheers, Ralph.

[TUHS] Re: OT: Nostr Protocol.

[Angel M Alganza]

On 2023-05-04 10:58, Ralph Corderoy wrote:

> Twitter co-founder Jack Dorsey has been using it for a while.

Not only has he been using it for a while already, but he's also 
contributing code and funding the developers of some projects (clients 
and relays) with 14 BTC through fiatjaf, Nostr creator.

> I suggest any further chat about Nostr moves to coff@tuhs.org.

CC'd.

Cheers.
Ángel

[TUHS] Re: OT: TUHS mails not going to Outlook & Hotmail. Help!

[Jeremy C. Reed]

On Wed, 3 May 2023, Brad Spencer wrote:

> Other stranger stuff..  from my logs of incoming TUHS email it looks
> like you can send via IPv4 and IPv6...  is it only one of those sending
> addresses that fail?? (This may be hard to determine, I realize, but it

Maybe the TXT SPF needs to add

 ip6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1

[TUHS] Re: OT: TUHS mails not going to Outlook & Hotmail. Help!

[Warren Toomey via TUHS]

On Thu, May 04, 2023 at 09:46:51AM +1000, Warren Toomey via TUHS wrote:
> All, e-mails from the TUHS server are not making it to Hotmail or Outlook.
> I've not changed anything. Is there anybody with some MTA/ISP experience
> who might be able to help diagnose the problem?

All, thanks for the on- and off-list responses. I'm off to a horse competition
this weekend with my wife (I stay on the ground), so I won't be able to get
back to you with details until Sunday/Monday.

Cheers, Warren

[TUHS] Re: OT: TUHS mails not going to Outlook & Hotmail. Help!

[Tom Ivar Helbekkmo via TUHS]

"Jeremy C. Reed" <reed@reedmedia.net> writes:

> Maybe the TXT SPF needs to add
>
>  ip6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1

No, the 'a' covers that.

I can't see anything wrong with the way mail is sent from the list.

-tih
-- 
Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the significance
of Lisp.  Lisp is the most important idea in computer science.  --Alan Kay

[TUHS] Re: OT: TUHS mails not going to Outlook & Hotmail. Help!

[Steffen Nurpmeso]

Tom Ivar Helbekkmo wrote in
 <m2ttwryh2x.fsf@thuvia.hamartun.priv.no>:
 |"Jeremy C. Reed" <reed@reedmedia.net> writes:
 |> Maybe the TXT SPF needs to add
 |>
 |>  ip6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1
 |
 |No, the 'a' covers that.
 |
 |I can't see anything wrong with the way mail is sent from the list.


  minnie.tuhs.org.        21600   IN      AAAA    2600:3c01:e000:146::1
  minnie.tuhs.org.        21600   IN      A       50.116.15.146
  minnie.tuhs.org.        300     IN      TXT     "v=spf1 a mx ip4:45.79.103.53 ~all"
  minnie.tuhs.org.        21600   IN      MX      10 minnie.tuhs.org.

The IPv4 45.79.103.53 is linode whatever; i would add the same
50.116.15.146 like is done for tuhs.org itself:

  tuhs.org.               21600   IN      AAAA    2600:3c01:e000:146::1
  tuhs.org.               21600   IN      A       50.116.15.146
  tuhs.org.               300     IN      TXT     "v=spf1 mx a ip4:50.116.15.146 ip4:45.79.103.53 ip6:2600:3c01::f03c:93ff:fee0:947f ip6:2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fe61:7ef8 ~all"
  tuhs.org.               21600   IN      SOA     ns1.linode.com. hostmaster.tuhs.org. 2021000024 14400 14400 1209600 86400
  tuhs.org.               21600   IN      NS      ns3.linode.com.
  tuhs.org.               21600   IN      NS      ns5.linode.com.
  tuhs.org.               21600   IN      NS      ns1.linode.com.
  tuhs.org.               21600   IN      NS      ns2.linode.com.
  tuhs.org.               21600   IN      NS      ns4.linode.com.
  tuhs.org.               21600   IN      MX      10 minnie.tuhs.org.

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,                The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter           he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)
|~~
|..and in spring, hear David Leonard sing..
|
|The black bear,          The black bear,
|blithely holds his own   holds himself at leisure
|beating it, up and down  tossing over his ups and downs with pleasure
|~~
|Farewell, dear collar bear

[TUHS] Re: OT: TUHS mails not going to Outlook & Hotmail. Help!

[Warren Toomey via TUHS]

On Thu, May 04, 2023 at 09:46:51AM +1000, Warren Toomey via TUHS wrote:
> All, e-mails from the TUHS server are not making it to Hotmail or Outlook.
> I've not changed anything. Is there anybody with some MTA/ISP experience
> who might be able to help diagnose the problem?

All, sorry for not responding to your on- and off-list e-mails in the
last week. It's been busy. Thank you for all your suggestions.

Surprisingly, e-mail to both Hotmail and Outlook are now working again;
I've not touched anything in the interim.

So I'll tentatively say 'case closed', but I'll look at your suggestions
and see if I can improve the MTA and list configuration on the server.

Cheers, Warren