[TUHS] Make love

[TUHS] Make love

[Norman Wilson]

Ah hah!  My stray memory of `Not War?' must date from my TOPS-10 days.

I can't find a trace of the string `love' anywhere in any of the make
sources in Kirk's multi-CD compendium of historic BSD, so it certainly
can't have been from there.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

[TUHS] Make love

[Warner Losh]

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> On Jul 31, 2015, at 11:23 AM, Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:
> 
> Ah hah!  My stray memory of `Not War?' must date from my TOPS-10 days.
> 
> I can't find a trace of the string `love' anywhere in any of the make
> sources in Kirk's multi-CD compendium of historic BSD, so it certainly
> can't have been from there.

I know for sure my make love memories come from RSTS/E 7.2 running
TECO on a  PDP-11/23 back in ’82 or ’83. I’d somehow gotten it into my head
that it was a BSD thing that’d been scrubbed by the same people that scrubbed
‘you can tune a file system, but you can’t tuna fish’ from tunfs(8).

Warner
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[TUHS] Make love

[John Cowan]

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Warner Losh scripsit:

> the same people that scrubbed
> ‘you can tune a file system, but you can’t tuna fish’ from tunfs(8).

That would be some humorless git at Sun during the run-up to Solaris.
Luckily we are now protected against a recurrence by this warning in
the man page source:

.\" Take this out and a Unix Daemon will dog your steps from now until
.\" the time_t's wrap around.

And in the 64-bit world, that's a loooooooooooooooooooong time.
Someone should file a patch to restore warning and joke to illumos.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
Any sufficiently-complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad-hoc,
informally-specified bug-ridden slow implementation of half of Common Lisp.
        --Greenspun's Tenth Rule of Programming (rules 1-9 are unknown)

[TUHS] Make love

[scj]

Early Unix had a lot of cryptic messages -- the infamous "eh?", and "very
funny!" were two that I got several times.  The make love message in the
earliest make I remember was "Don't know how to make love."

When working on PCC, I had the unenviable job of producing a C compiler
that would accept all of  *077532 = 13, 077532->ack = 13, and device->ack
= 13.  As we were trying to get the kernel and applications to declare
addresses more "honestly", we adopted a rule that if you actually used a
structure reference that was type safe, we would require it everywhere in
the file.  Since structure members used to be in a single namespace, this
led to some horribly complicated code.  In an effort to get it to work, I
festooned it with consistency checks nearly every other line, getting more
and more punchy as I tried to come up with short, unique messages.

I'll never forget the look on Ken's face when he came to me and asked
"what is a 'gummy structure'?"

Nowadays, while I'm happy to have some fun with them, I think throwing
humor at people who have just screwed up is playing to a tough audience. 
Today, I might have suggested that 'make love' produce something more like
"Don't know how to make love.  Can you introduce me to a hot makefile?"

[TUHS] Make love

[Dave Horsfall]

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On Fri, 31 Jul 2015, Warner Losh wrote:

> I know for sure my make love memories come from RSTS/E 7.2 running TECO 
> on a PDP-11/23 back in ’82 or ’83. I’d somehow gotten it into my head 
> that it was a BSD thing that’d been scrubbed by the same people that 
> scrubbed

Ah, TECO...  Type your name into it to see what it does.

> ‘you can tune a file system, but you can’t tuna fish’ from tunfs(8).

One of the world's best messages; it's right up there with ENOBALLS 
(Unable to reproduce).

And please, no EMACS (editor too large)...

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."
Watson never said: "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."

[TUHS] Make love

[Steve Nickolas]

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On Sat, 1 Aug 2015, Dave Horsfall wrote:

> On Fri, 31 Jul 2015, Warner Losh wrote:
>
>> I know for sure my make love memories come from RSTS/E 7.2 running TECO
>> on a PDP-11/23 back in ’82 or ’83. I’d somehow gotten it into my head
>> that it was a BSD thing that’d been scrubbed by the same people that
>> scrubbed
>
> Ah, TECO...  Type your name into it to see what it does.
>
>> ‘you can tune a file system, but you can’t tuna fish’ from tunfs(8).
>
> One of the world's best messages; it's right up there with ENOBALLS
> (Unable to reproduce).
>
> And please, no EMACS (editor too large)...
>
>

EIEIO (computer bought the farm)? </gnu>

-uso.

[TUHS] Make love

[Larry McVoy]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 07:48:25PM -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> Warner Losh scripsit:
> 
> > the same people that scrubbed
> > ???you can tune a file system, but you can???t tuna fish??? from tunfs(8).
> 
> That would be some humorless git at Sun during the run-up to Solaris.
> Luckily we are now protected against a recurrence by this warning in
> the man page source:
> 
> .\" Take this out and a Unix Daemon will dog your steps from now until
> .\" the time_t's wrap around.
> 
> And in the 64-bit world, that's a loooooooooooooooooooong time.
> Someone should file a patch to restore warning and joke to illumos.

I was wondering if that would come up.  I'm the guy that put that comment
in the man page source.  Then they took it out.  Losers.  

I am not the guy who wrote you can tune a file system but you can't
tuna fish, I believe that was Kirk.

--lm

P.S.  Can't believe I'm claiming credit for a comment in a man page.  I
need to get a life.

[TUHS] Make love

[Larry McVoy]

On Sat, Aug 01, 2015 at 01:20:14PM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Jul 2015, Warner Losh wrote:
> 
> > I know for sure my make love memories come from RSTS/E 7.2 running TECO 
> > on a PDP-11/23 back in ???82 or ???83. I???d somehow gotten it into my head 
> > that it was a BSD thing that???d been scrubbed by the same people that 
> > scrubbed
> 
> Ah, TECO...  Type your name into it to see what it does.
> 
> > ???you can tune a file system, but you can???t tuna fish??? from tunfs(8).
> 
> One of the world's best messages; it's right up there with ENOBALLS 
> (Unable to reproduce).
> 
> And please, no EMACS (editor too large)...

EMACS = Eight megs and constantly swapping.  That's how I heard it.  And
that was in the the days of 4MB Sun machines, if you had 8, holy shit, 
that was cool!

Am I the only guy who looks at 32GB (gigabyte!!!) USB sticks and shakes
his head in amazement?  Modern processors have more L3 *cache* than Sun
workstations had memory.

[TUHS] Make love

[Steve Nickolas]

On Fri, 31 Jul 2015, Larry McVoy wrote:

> EMACS = Eight megs and constantly swapping.  That's how I heard it.  And
> that was in the the days of 4MB Sun machines, if you had 8, holy shit,
> that was cool!
>
> Am I the only guy who looks at 32GB (gigabyte!!!) USB sticks and shakes
> his head in amazement?  Modern processors have more L3 *cache* than Sun
> workstations had memory.

Nah.

Because of memory improvements I came up with a less dated-sounding 
variation of that expansion: EMACS - Enough Memory? A Concept Strange! - 
a few years back.

-uso.

[TUHS] Make love

[Warner Losh]

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> On Jul 31, 2015, at 9:20 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> 
> One of the world's best messages; it's right up there with ENOBALLS
> (Unable to reproduce).

FreeBSD has EDOOFUS for ‘horrible programmer error’

Warner
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[TUHS] Make love

[Ronald Natalie]

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I always liked ELECTROLUX - Your code needs cleaning up.

> On Aug 1, 2015, at 3:21 AM, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Jul 31, 2015, at 9:20 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
>> 
>> One of the world's best messages; it's right up there with ENOBALLS
>> (Unable to reproduce).
> 
> FreeBSD has EDOOFUS for ‘horrible programmer error’
> 
> Warner
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] Make love

[Milo Velimirovic]

>> 
>> 
> 
> EIEIO (computer bought the farm)? </gnu>

Obscure side note: PowerPC includes an EIEIO instruction, Ensure In-Order Execution of I/O. [1] 

 - Milo

https://www-01.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/ssw_aix_61/com.ibm.aix.alangref/idalangref_eieio_instrs.htm <https://www-01.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/ssw_aix_61/com.ibm.aix.alangref/idalangref_eieio_instrs.htm>

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[TUHS] Make love

[Milo Velimirovic]

Horrid me, replying to my own post
> On Aug 1, 2015, at 6:19 AM, Milo Velimirovic <milov at cs.uwlax.edu> wrote:
> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> EIEIO (computer bought the farm)? </gnu>
> 
> Obscure side note: PowerPC includes an EIEIO instruction, Ensure In-Order Execution of I/O. [1] 

I must be getting old, thinking thinking of Ensure; s/sure/force/
> 
>  - Milo
> 
> [1] https://www-01.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/ssw_aix_61/com.ibm.aix.alangref/idalangref_eieio_instrs.htm <https://www-01.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/ssw_aix_61/com.ibm.aix.alangref/idalangref_eieio_instrs.htm>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

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[TUHS] Make love

[Clem cole]

And just think what's people are going to think once the new intel crystal ridge technology is in new systems.  


BTW just to compare the TLB on the original IBM mainframe that supported virtual memory (360/67) of the late 1960's/ early '70s had 8 slots of 32 bits each.  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 31, 2015, at 11:50 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Aug 01, 2015 at 01:20:14PM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>>> On Fri, 31 Jul 2015, Warner Losh wrote:
>>> 
>>> I know for sure my make love memories come from RSTS/E 7.2 running TECO 
>>> on a PDP-11/23 back in ???82 or ???83. I???d somehow gotten it into my head 
>>> that it was a BSD thing that???d been scrubbed by the same people that 
>>> scrubbed
>> 
>> Ah, TECO...  Type your name into it to see what it does.
>> 
>>> ???you can tune a file system, but you can???t tuna fish??? from tunfs(8).
>> 
>> One of the world's best messages; it's right up there with ENOBALLS 
>> (Unable to reproduce).
>> 
>> And please, no EMACS (editor too large)...
> 
> EMACS = Eight megs and constantly swapping.  That's how I heard it.  And
> that was in the the days of 4MB Sun machines, if you had 8, holy shit, 
> that was cool!
> 
> Am I the only guy who looks at 32GB (gigabyte!!!) USB sticks and shakes
> his head in amazement?  Modern processors have more L3 *cache* than Sun
> workstations had memory.
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] Make love

[Clem cole]

MULTICS - Many Unbelievably Large Tables In Core Simultaneously 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 31, 2015, at 11:50 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Aug 01, 2015 at 01:20:14PM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>>> On Fri, 31 Jul 2015, Warner Losh wrote:
>>> 
>>> I know for sure my make love memories come from RSTS/E 7.2 running TECO 
>>> on a PDP-11/23 back in ???82 or ???83. I???d somehow gotten it into my head 
>>> that it was a BSD thing that???d been scrubbed by the same people that 
>>> scrubbed
>> 
>> Ah, TECO...  Type your name into it to see what it does.
>> 
>>> ???you can tune a file system, but you can???t tuna fish??? from tunfs(8).
>> 
>> One of the world's best messages; it's right up there with ENOBALLS 
>> (Unable to reproduce).
>> 
>> And please, no EMACS (editor too large)...
> 
> EMACS = Eight megs and constantly swapping.  That's how I heard it.  And
> that was in the the days of 4MB Sun machines, if you had 8, holy shit, 
> that was cool!
> 
> Am I the only guy who looks at 32GB (gigabyte!!!) USB sticks and shakes
> his head in amazement?  Modern processors have more L3 *cache* than Sun
> workstations had memory.
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] Make love

[Mary Ann Horton]

Oh, I remember "Very funny!"  It was pr, V6, I think.

I wanted to format for a 132 wide printer and I mistakenly typed "pr 
-132 file" instead of "pr -w132 file".  It thought I wanted it formatted 
in 132 columns of text.

I about tore my hair out trying to figure out what "Very funny!" meant.

On 07/31/2015 07:42 PM, scj at yaccman.com wrote:
> Early Unix had a lot of cryptic messages -- the infamous "eh?", and "very
> funny!" were two that I got several times.  The make love message in the
> earliest make I remember was "Don't know how to make love."
>
> When working on PCC, I had the unenviable job of producing a C compiler
> that would accept all of  *077532 = 13, 077532->ack = 13, and device->ack
> = 13.  As we were trying to get the kernel and applications to declare
> addresses more "honestly", we adopted a rule that if you actually used a
> structure reference that was type safe, we would require it everywhere in
> the file.  Since structure members used to be in a single namespace, this
> led to some horribly complicated code.  In an effort to get it to work, I
> festooned it with consistency checks nearly every other line, getting more
> and more punchy as I tried to come up with short, unique messages.
>
> I'll never forget the look on Ken's face when he came to me and asked
> "what is a 'gummy structure'?"
>
> Nowadays, while I'm happy to have some fun with them, I think throwing
> humor at people who have just screwed up is playing to a tough audience.
> Today, I might have suggested that 'make love' produce something more like
> "Don't know how to make love.  Can you introduce me to a hot makefile?"
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] Make love

[arnold]

Steve Johnson wrote:

> Nowadays, while I'm happy to have some fun with them, I think throwing
> humor at people who have just screwed up is playing to a tough audience. 

I think you're right. Especially, anyone who's dealing with the nearly
indecipherable messages coming out today's C++ compilers is likely to
be in no mood for snarky messages from his/her tools.

I recall that these things were much funnier when I was younger (college /
grad school).

Arnold

[TUHS] Make love

[scj]

At least the Unix messages were silent.  I remember one Unix clone that
programmed sounds of an explosion when the system crashed.  Users did NOT
find that funny...

Last week I was attending a lecture in the Sierras where there was no
Internet, taking notes on my iPhone.  I had it in airplane mode with "Do
not Disturb" on and had Siri configured to talk only when in handsfree
mode.  Nevertheless, a careless double press of the round button told
everyone attending the talk "Siri is unable to find the internet!"

I would a preferred a printed "eh?"

Steve

> Steve Johnson wrote:
>
>> Nowadays, while I'm happy to have some fun with them, I think throwing
>> humor at people who have just screwed up is playing to a tough audience.
>
> I think you're right. Especially, anyone who's dealing with the nearly
> indecipherable messages coming out today's C++ compilers is likely to
> be in no mood for snarky messages from his/her tools.
>
> I recall that these things were much funnier when I was younger (college /
> grad school).
>
> Arnold
>

[TUHS] Make love

[Norman Wilson]

Dave Horsfall:

  And please, no EMACS (editor too large)...

======

No EMACS please, we're UNIX.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

[TUHS] Make love

[Ed Skinner]

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Of course, you could add your own /usr/local/bin/make:

#/bin/sh
if test $# -eq 1 && test "$1" == "love"; then
    echo make: Hey, I\'m a computer and don\'t have the apparatus for that. \{Sulks off and cries to itself.\}
else
    /usr/bin/make $*
fi



—
Ed Skinner, ed at flat5.net, http://www.flat5.net/, 480-492-7664

> On Jul 31, 2015, at 9:40 AM, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Jul 31, 2015, at 10:09 AM, random832 at fastmail.us wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, Jul 30, 2015, at 16:51, Jaap Akkerhuis wrote:
>>> make: don't know how to make love.
>>> 
>>> is the answer I remember.
>>> 
>>> FreeBSD make actually says: "make: don't know how to make love. Stop"
>>> 
>>> 	jaap
>> 
>> FreeBSD has a commit dated April 1998, with the description "Use
>> historically correct error message in some cases, optionally."
>> 
>> https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=35483
> 
> We replaced FreeBSD’s make with NetBSD’s bmake. The NetBSD
> make, evidently, is more humorless :) Maybe I should commit a local change
> to bring it back :)
> 
> Warner
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] Make love

[Warner Losh]

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> On Jul 31, 2015, at 10:09 AM, random832 at fastmail.us wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2015, at 16:51, Jaap Akkerhuis wrote:
>> make: don't know how to make love.
>> 
>> is the answer I remember.
>> 
>> FreeBSD make actually says: "make: don't know how to make love. Stop"
>> 
>> 	jaap
> 
> FreeBSD has a commit dated April 1998, with the description "Use
> historically correct error message in some cases, optionally."
> 
> https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=35483

We replaced FreeBSD’s make with NetBSD’s bmake. The NetBSD
make, evidently, is more humorless :) Maybe I should commit a local change
to bring it back :)

Warner


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[TUHS] Make love

[John Cowan]

ron at ronnatalie.com scripsit:

> Same thing on the DEC 10/20's.

Sure.  OS/8 is what you get when you try to run TOPS-10 on a Blackberry.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
If I have seen farther than others, it is because I am surrounded by dwarves.
        --Murray Gell-Mann

[TUHS] Make love

[ron]

>
> On OS/8, it said "Not war?" with a question mark (well, using Great
> Runes).
> "Make" on old DEC systems started Teco with EWwhatever$$.
>

Same thing on the DEC 10/20's.

. MAKE LOVE
Not War?
[4K Core]


Of course there were the other famous UNIX questions like...

Got a light?

[TUHS] Make love

[random832]

On Thu, Jul 30, 2015, at 16:51, Jaap Akkerhuis wrote:
> make: don't know how to make love.
> 
> is the answer I remember.
> 
> FreeBSD make actually says: "make: don't know how to make love. Stop"
> 
> 	jaap

FreeBSD has a commit dated April 1998, with the description "Use
historically correct error message in some cases, optionally."

https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=35483

[TUHS] Make love

[Nemo]

On 30 July 2015 at 17:11, Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:
> My vague memory is that the original make, e.g. in V7, printed
> `Don't know how to make love.'  This was not a special case:
> `don't know how to make XXX' was the normal message.
>
> There was a variant make that printed
>         Not war?
> if asked to make love without explicit instructions.  I thought
> that appeared in 3BSD or 4BSD, but I could be mistaken.

On Solaris 10, /usr/css/bin/make reports:
make: Fatal error: Don't know how to make target `love'

N.

[TUHS] Make love

[Norman Wilson]

My vague memory is that the original make, e.g. in V7, printed
`Don't know how to make love.'  This was not a special case:
`don't know how to make XXX' was the normal message.

There was a variant make that printed
	Not war?
if asked to make love without explicit instructions.  I thought
that appeared in 3BSD or 4BSD, but I could be mistaken.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

[TUHS] Make love

[Jaap Akkerhuis]

make: don't know how to make love.

is the answer I remember.

FreeBSD make actually says: "make: don't know how to make love. Stop"

	jaap


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[TUHS] Make love

[Chet Ramey]

On 7/30/15 4:37 PM, Ori Idan wrote:

> Tried on my Linux machine and got boring message similar to Mac:
> make: *** No rule to make target `love'.  Stop.

They both use (the apparently humorless) GNU make.

-- 
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
		 ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, ITS, CWRU    chet at case.edu    http://cnswww.cns.cwru.edu/~chet/

[TUHS] Make love

[Ori Idan]

On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 11:00 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> So me, being an uber-geek, tried it on a few boxen again...
>
> On the Mac:
>
>     ozzie:~ dave$ make love
>     make: *** No rule to make target `love'.  Stop.
>
> Boring...
>
> On FreeBSD:
>
>     aneurin% make love
>     Not war.
>
> Thank you for keeping the faith!
>
> And on my tame penguin:
>
>     dave at debbie:~$ make love
>     -bash: make: command not found
>
> Sigh...
>

Tried on my Linux machine and got boring message similar to Mac:
make: *** No rule to make target `love'.  Stop.

-- 
Ori Idan
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[TUHS] Make love

[John Cowan]

Dave Horsfall scripsit:

> On FreeBSD:
> 
>     aneurin% make love
>     Not war.

On OS/8, it said "Not war?" with a question mark (well, using Great Runes).
"Make" on old DEC systems started Teco with EWwhatever$$.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
Eric Raymond is the Margaret Mead of the Open Source movement.
          --Bruce Perens, a long time ago

[TUHS] Make love

[Dave Horsfall]

So me, being an uber-geek, tried it on a few boxen again...

On the Mac:

    ozzie:~ dave$ make love
    make: *** No rule to make target `love'.  Stop.

Boring...

On FreeBSD:

    aneurin% make love
    Not war.

Thank you for keeping the faith!

And on my tame penguin:

    dave at debbie:~$ make love
    -bash: make: command not found

Sigh...

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."
Watson never said: "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."