[TUHS] BSD/v8 TCP/IP (was Shell control through external commands)

[TUHS] BSD/v8 TCP/IP (was Shell control through external commands)

[Norman Wilson]

I'm not sure of the point of this mine-is-bigger-than-yours argument, but:

The earliest stream-I/O-system-based tty driver I'm aware of was
already in the Research kernel when I interviewed at Bell Labs
in early 1984.  I have a vague memory that it was a couple of
years older than that, and was first implemented in a post-V7
PDP-11 system; also that I had heard about it first at a USENIX
conference in 1982 or 1983; but I cannot find any citations to
back up either of those memories.

I do know that I'd heard of it while I was still working at Caltech,
because I remember thinking about what a good idea it was and
about possibly trying to do my own version of it, but I never did.
I left Caltech at the end of June 1984, spent the following month
touring nearly the entire Amtrak long-distance network in a single
long reservation (it was possible to do that with surprisingly few
overnight stops off the train in those days), and started at Bell
Labs at the beginning of August.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

[TUHS] BSD/v8 TCP/IP (was Shell control through external commands)

[Joerg Schilling]

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Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:

> I'm not sure of the point of this mine-is-bigger-than-yours argument, but:
>
> The earliest stream-I/O-system-based tty driver I'm aware of was
> already in the Research kernel when I interviewed at Bell Labs
> in early 1984.  I have a vague memory that it was a couple of
> years older than that, and was first implemented in a post-V7
> PDP-11 system; also that I had heard about it first at a USENIX
> conference in 1982 or 1983; but I cannot find any citations to
> back up either of those memories.

Because of the design bug I mentioned, I searched for UNIX sources from AT&T 
that include streams support, but could never find any.

Sun fixed the bug aprox. one year after introducing SunOS-4.0. I am sure that 
if someone did use a streams based system written from the AT&T specs together 
with a modern shell with an integrated history editor, the character loss would 
have been detected.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg at schily.net                  (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       joerg.schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/'

[TUHS] BSD/v8 TCP/IP (was Shell control through external commands)

[Clem Cole]

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below

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 6:52 AM, Tony Finch <dot at dotat.at> wrote:

> Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> >
> > Joy would create sockets/bind et al in response to the CMU Accent System
> > that they were building for DARPA on the triple-drip PERQs.
>
> Is "triple-drip" a joke on Three Rivers?

​Sorry - yes, force of habit of many years ago, ​

​   I suppose I should be happy that my fingers did not call the Perq by
it's sometimes (CMU) name, the "PascAlto."​   A number of my friends and
colleagues in those days made money by working over there.

That said, I do miss the GPD - aka the Graphics Wonder which was, IMHO,
their best product.   A vector graphics system with a dedicated PDP-11.
Some of the coolest programs I ever ran on the CMU PDP-10's displayed on
the "GDPs."   I still have a technical manual for it and have had a private
dream of trying to put it into simh to try to resurrect some of those old
codes (ah yes -- something else for my retirement "bucket list" - real work
gets in the way).

Clem
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[TUHS] BSD/v8 TCP/IP (was Shell control through external commands)

[Tony Finch]

Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
> Joy would create sockets/bind et al in response to the CMU Accent System
> that they were building for DARPA on the triple-drip PERQs.

Is "triple-drip" a joke on Three Rivers?

Tony.
-- 
f.anthony.n.finch  <dot at dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/  -  I xn--zr8h punycode
Lundy, Fastnet, Irish Sea: North 4 or 5, increasing 6 or 7 for a time.
Moderate or rough. Thundery showers. Good, occasionally poor.

[TUHS] BSD/v8 TCP/IP (was Shell control through external commands)

[Clem Cole]

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 3:20 AM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:

> Right, the discussion was about 4.1c.  I just wanted to confirm that
> it was, in fact, the first version with TCP/IP.
>

I'll take a side trip to answer this question....   4.1A was the first BSD
version that had the beginning of the wnj rewrite of the BBN code, but did
have an IP stack based on the BBN but with the beginnings of a new API.
(Again, if I can get some tapes read, I used to have 4.1A and 4.1B tapes).

FYI: straight 4.1 (GA code if you will) did have a IP stack - just not from
UCB nor a new API to use it.   Please remember, UCB *did not have the
contract* for networking support for DARPA, BBN did.  For an API, the BBN
code used the Chaosnet trick in nami of leaving text chars at the next of
the open call as parameters - i.e. open ("/dev/tcp/mumble") and the TCP
device would take if their.  Hence with that hack, no new system calls were
used (just the traditional open/close/read/write).

Joy would create sockets/bind et al in response to the CMU Accent System
that they were building for DARPA on the triple-drip PERQs.   But the IP
stack itself was from BBN (Gurwitz code).  BTW: That's were the dreadful
mbuf's code came from.  Bill also tried to get some other stacks besides IP
inside of the sockets framework, such as XNS and the ISO code, but in fact
that would take much hacking to sockets before it worked (in a sense).

That said, it was the release of 4.1C to the DARPA contractors and some
other specific places (such as Sun, Apollo, and Masscomp that I know) and
later the GA of 4.2BSD that made the IP stack for UNIX spread.   With
BSD4.2 came two things for networking the full sockets API and sendmail as
its SMTP implementation (the BBN smtp was not used or released).

FYI: BBN (Rob) had written a somewhat OS independant IP/TCP stack (mbufs
were created so he could be independant of any specific OS kernel's memory
scheme).  It ran in HP's 1000s and 3000's IIRC and a few other systems.
This was the code that was spliced in 4.1, as was the user level code
(telnet, ftp and smtp -- this without hacking BSD's delivermail stuff).
BBN would take 4.2 back and do an update beyond that but for whatever
reasons, few places ever really picked that code base up (we used it in
Stellix as we found it easier to make it parallel then the BSD code base).

Also, Eric Cooper and I put the BBN stack on the original 4.1 UCB CAD
systems on a Xerox 3M ethernet before 4.1A was available.  IIRC Sam Leffler
was actually using the BBN code base to write the rcp/rsh/rexec and routed
stuff after seeing some of the XNS/PUP stuff at Xerox (routed is pretty
much a direct "rip-off" of the XNS way of doing routing) and that got
spliced into the wnj's stuff later.

Clem
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[TUHS] BSD/v8 TCP/IP (was Shell control through external commands)

[Norman Wilson]

  Because of the design bug I mentioned, I searched for UNIX sources from AT&T
  that include streams support, but could never find any.

=====

None of the Research systems after 32/V was ever distributed except
to a handful of sites under site-specific letter agreements that
forbade redistribution.

This is a bug, not a feature, but there it is.  It was easy to get
approval to write a paper, much harder to get permission to distribute
code, especially when the code in some way overlapped the Official
Product.

Warren and I (and Dennis, when he was still alive) hoped to do
something about some years back, but it's a lot harder than it used
to be because it is harder to find a corporate entity that is
confident enough to give permission, even for stuff that is so old
that it is unlikely to have a trumppenceworth of commercial value.
Then IBM vs SCO intervened, and now things are even more fragmented.

There may be other efforts under way now and then to negotiate the
legal minefield.  I wish them all well, and will help them where I
can.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

[TUHS] BSD/v8 TCP/IP (was Shell control through external commands)

[Joerg Schilling]

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Brantley Coile <brantleycoile at me.com> wrote:

> http://articles.latimes.com/1988-01-07/business/fi-33970_1_sun-microsystems
>
> You might have the year wrong. The agreement between AT&T and Sun was announced in 1988. A year would be about right to incorporate some of the new stuff.

Well, maybe I was mistaken and 1987 was the year of NeWS and 1988 was the year 
of SunOS-4.0.

> But getting back to your original comment that you are not aware of any streams implementation before SunOS-4.0, do you mean that it was the first you became aware of? Certainly System V, from whence it came, predated SunOS-4.0 and 8th Edition predated that. My copy of the tty_ld(4) man page was printed Feb 10, 1985.


SVr4 was the first "SystemV" with a streams based tty driver and this driver 
was the driver taken from SunOS-4.0. You can verify this by looking at the 
bug-fix that was needed to make it work at all.

The AT&T concept had a bug as it did not allow to switch from raw mode to cooked mode
mode without loosing all characters in the buffer. Sun fixed this by 
introducing a new mesage that says: Someone is going to read 5 chars, so 
transfer 5 chars from the edit-buffer upstream but keep the rest.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg at schily.net                  (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       joerg.schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/'

[TUHS] BSD/v8 TCP/IP (was Shell control through external commands)

[Brantley Coile]

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Clarification. “From whence it came” meant where SunOS-4.0 got STREAMS not from where streams came from.


> On Sep 12, 2016, at 7:16 AM, Brantley Coile <brantleycoile at me.com> wrote:
> 
> http://articles.latimes.com/1988-01-07/business/fi-33970_1_sun-microsystems
> 
> You might have the year wrong. The agreement between AT&T and Sun was announced in 1988. A year would be about right to incorporate some of the new stuff.
> 
> But getting back to your original comment that you are not aware of any streams implementation before SunOS-4.0, do you mean that it was the first you became aware of? Certainly System V, from whence it came, predated SunOS-4.0 and 8th Edition predated that. My copy of the tty_ld(4) man page was printed Feb 10, 1985.
> 
>  Brantley
>  bwc at coraid.com
>  http://coraid.com
> 
>> On Sep 12, 2016, at 7:00 AM, Joerg Schilling <schily at schily.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Brantley Coile <brantleycoile at me.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> SunOS-4.0 was released in December of 1988, if I remember correctly. I had a streams based tty driver sometime in 1987 and I was just duplicating what Dennis et al has done in the Labs.
>> 
>> IIRC, I had a copy of SunOS-4.0 sometime in autumn 1987. It (and the Sun AT&T 
>> deal based on the code) definitely was the top topic in the Sun User Group 
>> meeting in December 1987.
>> 
>> Jörg
>> 
>> -- 
>> EMail:joerg at schily.net                  (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
>>      joerg.schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
>> URL:  http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/'
> 

[TUHS] BSD/v8 TCP/IP (was Shell control through external commands)

[Brantley Coile]

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http://articles.latimes.com/1988-01-07/business/fi-33970_1_sun-microsystems

You might have the year wrong. The agreement between AT&T and Sun was announced in 1988. A year would be about right to incorporate some of the new stuff.

But getting back to your original comment that you are not aware of any streams implementation before SunOS-4.0, do you mean that it was the first you became aware of? Certainly System V, from whence it came, predated SunOS-4.0 and 8th Edition predated that. My copy of the tty_ld(4) man page was printed Feb 10, 1985.

  Brantley
  bwc at coraid.com
  http://coraid.com

> On Sep 12, 2016, at 7:00 AM, Joerg Schilling <schily at schily.net> wrote:
> 
> Brantley Coile <brantleycoile at me.com> wrote:
> 
>> SunOS-4.0 was released in December of 1988, if I remember correctly. I had a streams based tty driver sometime in 1987 and I was just duplicating what Dennis et al has done in the Labs.
> 
> IIRC, I had a copy of SunOS-4.0 sometime in autumn 1987. It (and the Sun AT&T 
> deal based on the code) definitely was the top topic in the Sun User Group 
> meeting in December 1987.
> 
> Jörg
> 
> -- 
> EMail:joerg at schily.net                  (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
>       joerg.schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
> URL:  http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/'

[TUHS] BSD/v8 TCP/IP (was Shell control through external commands)

[Joerg Schilling]

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Brantley Coile <brantleycoile at me.com> wrote:

> SunOS-4.0 was released in December of 1988, if I remember correctly. I had a streams based tty driver sometime in 1987 and I was just duplicating what Dennis et al has done in the Labs.

IIRC, I had a copy of SunOS-4.0 sometime in autumn 1987. It (and the Sun AT&T 
deal based on the code) definitely was the top topic in the Sun User Group 
meeting in December 1987.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg at schily.net                  (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       joerg.schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/'

[TUHS] BSD/v8 TCP/IP (was Shell control through external commands)

[Brantley Coile]

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SunOS-4.0 was released in December of 1988, if I remember correctly. I had a streams based tty driver sometime in 1987 and I was just duplicating what Dennis et al has done in the Labs.

But I brag. Dennis' streams paper was publicshed in the BTJ in October 1984.

Regarding Plan 9, the system I use today. In the 3rd edition the streams mechanisms were reduced to the Block structure to hold and pass data, and the Queue. The dynamic aspects removed because they were never used. There’s no tty in Plan 9 so no need for a tty line discipline .

  Brantley
  bwc at coraid.com
  http://coraid.com


> On Sep 12, 2016, at 5:22 AM, Joerg Schilling <schily at schily.net> wrote:
> 
> "Erik E. Fair" <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:
> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STREAMS
>> 
>> dmr was trying to replace the abomination that the tty drivers had become (and
>> I still wish we'd adopted his APIs and work for that purpose to this day),
> 
> I am not aware of any streams based tty driver implementation that predates 
> SunOS-4.0.
> 
> Jörg
> 
> -- 
> EMail:joerg at schily.net                  (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
>       joerg.schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
> URL:  http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/'

[TUHS] BSD/v8 TCP/IP (was Shell control through external commands)

[Joerg Schilling]

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"Erik E. Fair" <fair-tuhs at netbsd.org> wrote:

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STREAMS
>
> dmr was trying to replace the abomination that the tty drivers had become (and
> I still wish we'd adopted his APIs and work for that purpose to this day),

I am not aware of any streams based tty driver implementation that predates 
SunOS-4.0.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:joerg at schily.net                  (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
       joerg.schilling at fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/'

[TUHS] BSD/v8 TCP/IP (was Shell control through external commands)

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

On Sunday, 11 September 2016 at 23:24:47 -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 10:44 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, 11 September 2016 at 21:31:10 -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>> -- Adopt 4.1c BSD kernel
>>> ...
>>>
>>> I don't think the BSD kernel when adopted had much, if any,
>>> of sockets, Berkeley's TCP/IP, McKusick's FFS; if it did,
>>> they were excised.
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> TCP/IP support didn't show up until later, I think summer 1985,
>>> though it might have been a year later.
>>
>> I'm confused.  4.1c has gone down in history as the first version with
>> Internet code, and looking at the sources (from mckusick's CD set), I
>> see the network files in /sys/netinet with names very reminiscent of
>> current FreeBSD file names.  The files have timestamps between
>> November 1982 and May 1983.  Why should they have been removed?  I
>> would have thought that exactly this functionality would have been the
>> reason why you adopted 4.1c.
>>
>> Similarly, it also included FFS and (not surprisingly sockets.
>>
>> I checked further back, but unfortunately the previous version on the
>> CDs is 4.1a, and it has no kernel code.
>
> I don't think they are talking about BSD4.1a having these things,

Right, the discussion was about 4.1c.  I just wanted to confirm that
it was, in fact, the first version with TCP/IP.

> but rather Research Unix Edition 8 having these things.

Yes, that's what Norman said:

>>> if it did, they were excised.

> Bell labs didn't integrate them until later. I recall reading
> articles at the time (1983 or 1984) that they had their own notion
> of what networking to use that wasn't TCP/IP due to some perceived
> failings of TCP/IP that they fixed with their stuff.

I think the perceived "failings" were with sockets, not with TCP/IP.
That was what led to the misimplementation of STREAMS.  My real
confusion was what they really wanted from 4.1c, but I suppose it was
the VM implementation.  Can anybody comment?

Greg
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[TUHS] BSD/v8 TCP/IP (was Shell control through external commands)

[Erik E. Fair]

Two big debates I recall:

	Datagram (packets) versus virtual circuits (telephone calls).

	Berkeley (BSD) sockets versus Bell Labs (dmr) "streams" APIs.
	https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/classes/fa01/cse221/papers/ritchie-stream-io-belllabs84.pdf

It is important to note that the STREAMS stuff that eventually was foisted on
unfortunates from USG in System V was  - despite being derived from Ritchie's
work - yet another ... thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STREAMS

dmr was trying to replace the abomination that the tty drivers had become (and
I still wish we'd adopted his APIs and work for that purpose to this day),
but trying to force everything into a connection-oriented framework for a
datagram/packet network has conceptual limitations, and to AT&T's chagrin,
the Internet is not an X.25 or Datakit network.

Plan 9 also had some interesting work in it that I wish we'd adopted.

	Erik Fair

[TUHS] BSD/v8 TCP/IP (was Shell control through external commands)

[Cory Smelosky]

Do any copies of 8th Edition exist anywhere? ;)

That's one way to check!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 11, 2016, at 22:24, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 10:44 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:
>>> On Sunday, 11 September 2016 at 21:31:10 -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
>>> 
>>> -- Adopt 4.1c BSD kernel
>>> ...
>>> 
>>> I don't think the BSD kernel when adopted had much, if any,
>>> of sockets, Berkeley's TCP/IP, McKusick's FFS; if it did,
>>> they were excised.
>>> 
>>> ...
>>> 
>>> TCP/IP support didn't show up until later, I think summer 1985,
>>> though it might have been a year later.
>> 
>> I'm confused.  4.1c has gone down in history as the first version with
>> Internet code, and looking at the sources (from mckusick's CD set), I
>> see the network files in /sys/netinet with names very reminiscent of
>> current FreeBSD file names.  The files have timestamps between
>> November 1982 and May 1983.  Why should they have been removed?  I
>> would have thought that exactly this functionality would have been the
>> reason why you adopted 4.1c.
>> 
>> Similarly, it also included FFS and (not surprisingly sockets.
>> 
>> I checked further back, but unfortunately the previous version on the
>> CDs is 4.1a, and it has no kernel code.
> 
> I don't think they are talking about BSD4.1a having these things, but
> rather Research Unix Edition 8 having these things. Bell labs didn't
> integrate them until later. I recall reading articles at the time (1983
> or 1984) that they had their own notion of what networking to use
> that wasn't TCP/IP due to some perceived failings of TCP/IP that
> they fixed with their stuff. I recall that I read it in the library in
> high school.  Wish I'd forgotten that and recalled what the network
> protocol was they implemented instead...
> 
> Warner
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[TUHS] BSD/v8 TCP/IP (was Shell control through external commands)

[Warner Losh]

On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 10:44 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, 11 September 2016 at 21:31:10 -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
>>
>> -- Adopt 4.1c BSD kernel
>> ...
>>
>> I don't think the BSD kernel when adopted had much, if any,
>> of sockets, Berkeley's TCP/IP, McKusick's FFS; if it did,
>> they were excised.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> TCP/IP support didn't show up until later, I think summer 1985,
>> though it might have been a year later.
>
> I'm confused.  4.1c has gone down in history as the first version with
> Internet code, and looking at the sources (from mckusick's CD set), I
> see the network files in /sys/netinet with names very reminiscent of
> current FreeBSD file names.  The files have timestamps between
> November 1982 and May 1983.  Why should they have been removed?  I
> would have thought that exactly this functionality would have been the
> reason why you adopted 4.1c.
>
> Similarly, it also included FFS and (not surprisingly sockets.
>
> I checked further back, but unfortunately the previous version on the
> CDs is 4.1a, and it has no kernel code.

I don't think they are talking about BSD4.1a having these things, but
rather Research Unix Edition 8 having these things. Bell labs didn't
integrate them until later. I recall reading articles at the time (1983
or 1984) that they had their own notion of what networking to use
that wasn't TCP/IP due to some perceived failings of TCP/IP that
they fixed with their stuff. I recall that I read it in the library in
high school.  Wish I'd forgotten that and recalled what the network
protocol was they implemented instead...

Warner

[TUHS] BSD/v8 TCP/IP (was Shell control through external commands)

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

On Sunday, 11 September 2016 at 21:31:10 -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
>
> -- Adopt 4.1c BSD kernel
> ...
>
> I don't think the BSD kernel when adopted had much, if any,
> of sockets, Berkeley's TCP/IP, McKusick's FFS; if it did,
> they were excised.
>
> ...
>
> TCP/IP support didn't show up until later, I think summer 1985,
> though it might have been a year later.

I'm confused.  4.1c has gone down in history as the first version with
Internet code, and looking at the sources (from mckusick's CD set), I
see the network files in /sys/netinet with names very reminiscent of
current FreeBSD file names.  The files have timestamps between
November 1982 and May 1983.  Why should they have been removed?  I
would have thought that exactly this functionality would have been the
reason why you adopted 4.1c.

Similarly, it also included FFS and (not surprisingly sockets.

I checked further back, but unfortunately the previous version on the
CDs is 4.1a, and it has no kernel code.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at FreeBSD.org for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
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