[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Rudi Blom]

Hardly ever use notepad, hardly ever used notepad. Especially since I
discovered notepad++ many years ago ( https://notepad-plus-plus.org )

Of course, I use what is handy for what I'm doing. 'vim' I use when I
want to do some 'manipulation :-)

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Clem Cole]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 817 bytes --]

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 9:29 PM, Theodore Y. Ts'o <tytso at mit.edu> wrote:

> Why does it matter?  A rose by any other name....
>

​Exactly...​



>
> I will observe that people who are insisting on Linux and how it
> should be named usually have some kind of agenda.  Take for example,
> someone who tried to rename Linux as GNU/Linux.
>
​You I think hit it on the head (unfortunately).




>
> For people who want to insist that Linux is not Unix; that's fine.  I
> usually like to yank their chain by saying, tongue in cheek, that
> sure, Linux is not Unix, but it is largely compatible with Legacy Unix
> systems.  :-)

​Touché​

ᐧ
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180511/e08d0415/attachment.html>

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Grant Taylor]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 774 bytes --]

On 05/10/2018 08:16 PM, David Arnold wrote:
> As you say … not really worthy of the hype.

Is it a nice feature to have?  Yes.
Will it save people (like yourself) time?  Likely.

Is it worth hype (that I'm seeing)?  I don't think so.

Read:  My opinion is that Notepad's new feature is not worth the hype 
that I am seeing.

I feel like Notepad's new feature is going to impact fewer people than 
something like the Windows XP firewall being enabled by default did.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180510/0a8b8825/attachment.bin>

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[David Arnold]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1172 bytes --]

The upside for me as someone who packages software for Windows is that I can have README.txt, LICENSE.txt, etc, files in the Windows package and they’ll work out of the box for people who haven’t done the reconfiguration dance you describe.

Previously, I’ve had to run unix2dos on all the text files in the Windows package.

So in a few years when I stop supporting anything older than Windows-10.whatever-this-one-is-called, I’ll be able to simplify my packaging scripts slightly.

As you say … not really worthy of the hype.



d


> On 10 May 2018, at 08:23, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:
> 
> On 05/09/2018 03:57 PM, David Arnold wrote:
>> Double-click on a .txt file will invoke Notepad, unless you’ve reconfigured things.
> 
> Right-click on a .txt file
> Left-click on Open With
> Left-click on Wordpad
> (Optionally) Left-click on "always use this program…"
> 
> Sure, it's a preference change.  But it's a user level preference.
> 
> Is it nice that Notepad will now open files with unix new lines?  Sure.
> 
> Do I think it's worth some of the hype that I'm seeing?  Nope.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
> 

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Theodore Y. Ts'o]

Why does it matter?  A rose by any other name....

I will observe that people who are insisting on Linux and how it
should be named usually have some kind of agenda.  Take for example,
someone who tried to rename Linux as GNU/Linux.

For people who want to insist that Linux is not Unix; that's fine.  I
usually like to yank their chain by saying, tongue in cheek, that
sure, Linux is not Unix, but it is largely compatible with Legacy Unix
systems.  :-)

						- Ted

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Warner Losh]

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 4:59 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> wrote:

> Very well said Clem.
>
> Linux is not Unix.
> Linux is unix.
>

Linux is not UNIX.

According to the UNIX trademark guidelines, the second one is not
permitted... :)

Note the case difference.
>
> Linux does not have the licensing to claim to be a proper Unix (clone) and
> thus the privilege to use the uppercase "U".  But (IMHO) Linux is very much
> in the unix spirit or idea.
>

There were a couple of very specific distributions of Linux that passed the
Unix licensing tests from the X/Open group years ago, but I don't know what
happened after that.


> Analogy:  A Toyota Tacoma is not a Ford Ranger (Unix) but they are both
> pickup trucks (unix).


I was going to say that Linux is a UNIX-like operating system, but The Open
Group doesn't like that either :)

Warner
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180510/a5f539c2/attachment.html>

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Wesley Parish]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2136 bytes --]

That was the impression I got from the various Unix and UNIX(TM)
documents that Groklaw discussed during The SCO Group's Foot-In-Mouth
case against Linux, IBM and The Rest Of The World.

Wesley Parish

On 5/11/18, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> below...
>
> On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 5:09 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
>
>> LINUX Is Not UniX.
>
>
> A few thoughts ...
> 1.) Be careful - the US courts have said that *UNIX is not a code base or
> any one implementation - it's a set of ideas​.*  That is the whole basis of
> the BSDi case and why in the end AT&T lost.  It WAS their ideas, but it
> just can not be a trade secret.  If AT&T had been able to claim it as a
> trade secret, Linux, Minix, Coherent *et al *would have been in violation
> too (which is why it was so silly to sue them).
> 2.) I believe that Linux is the current popular implementation of UNIX.
>  Yes it hurts my fingers by some of the changes, but it looks, smells and
> quacks like duck.   Linux uses the AT&T IP -- the published ideas.  All of
> us on this list, just like Linus, are 'mentally contaminated' by Ken and
> Dennis's core idea.   That's the basic fact and it not going away.
> 3.) Claiming LINUX Is Not UniX is like saying FORTRAN95 is not FORTRAN
> because its not like F2, F4, F77 etc...   I'd like to point out that in
> fact, modern FTN compilers can pretty much accept the old code - which
> pretty darned amazing (and thankfully I'm not a compiler writer).    But
> for guys like me in the HPC business, FORTRAN is still useful, as it pays
> our salary.   The thing we have to remember is that the target matured, and
> moved on.  It aint quite like it was and there is no going back.
>
> I think that's the point and Ted and Larry have suggested so many times.
>  Linux took the token from AT&T, BSD, Solaris, *etc*... and moved it.  Some
> of us, myself included, find many of the changes gratuitous and a PITA, but
> that is the price of progress. I remember that a lot of people at AT&T
> thought the BSD changes were gratuitous too.   So Linux is the 3rd path of
> the UNIX heritage.
>
> Clem
> ᐧ
> ᐧ
>

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Grant Taylor]

Very well said Clem.

Linux is not Unix.
Linux is unix.

Note the case difference.

Linux does not have the licensing to claim to be a proper Unix (clone) 
and thus the privilege to use the uppercase "U".  But (IMHO) Linux is 
very much in the unix spirit or idea.

Analogy:  A Toyota Tacoma is not a Ford Ranger (Unix) but they are both 
pickup trucks (unix).



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180510/6685efaa/attachment.bin>

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Clem Cole]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1983 bytes --]

below...

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 5:09 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> LINUX Is Not UniX.


A few thoughts ...
1.) Be careful - the US courts have said that *UNIX is not a code base or
any one implementation - it's a set of ideas​.*  That is the whole basis of
the BSDi case and why in the end AT&T lost.  It WAS their ideas, but it
just can not be a trade secret.  If AT&T had been able to claim it as a
trade secret, Linux, Minix, Coherent *et al *would have been in violation
too (which is why it was so silly to sue them).
2.) I believe that Linux is the current popular implementation of UNIX.
 Yes it hurts my fingers by some of the changes, but it looks, smells and
quacks like duck.   Linux uses the AT&T IP -- the published ideas.  All of
us on this list, just like Linus, are 'mentally contaminated' by Ken and
Dennis's core idea.   That's the basic fact and it not going away.
3.) Claiming LINUX Is Not UniX is like saying FORTRAN95 is not FORTRAN
because its not like F2, F4, F77 etc...   I'd like to point out that in
fact, modern FTN compilers can pretty much accept the old code - which
pretty darned amazing (and thankfully I'm not a compiler writer).    But
for guys like me in the HPC business, FORTRAN is still useful, as it pays
our salary.   The thing we have to remember is that the target matured, and
moved on.  It aint quite like it was and there is no going back.

I think that's the point and Ted and Larry have suggested so many times.
 Linux took the token from AT&T, BSD, Solaris, *etc*... and moved it.  Some
of us, myself included, find many of the changes gratuitous and a PITA, but
that is the price of progress. I remember that a lot of people at AT&T
thought the BSD changes were gratuitous too.   So Linux is the 3rd path of
the UNIX heritage.

Clem
ᐧ
ᐧ
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180510/d16bc57c/attachment.html>

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Harald Arnesen]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 694 bytes --]

Dave Horsfall [05/10/2018 11:09 PM]:

> On Wed, 9 May 2018, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> 
>> Can you imagine a world where one operating system dominates the playing 
>> field, both server and client? And while some would say "well, UNIX won" 
>> - I don't consider Linux to be "UNIX" just as many here do not.
> 
> LINUX Is Not UniX.

Quoting Dennis:

"I don’t really distinguish between Linux and things that are more or
less direct descendants of Unix. I think they’re all the same at some
level. Often, people ask me, "Do you feel jealous about Linux being the
big thing." And the answer is no, for the same reason. I think they’re
the same."

. Linux Magazine: The Guru (15 June 2001)..

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[arnold]

> On Wed, 9 May 2018, Arthur Krewat wrote:
>
> > Can you imagine a world where one operating system dominates the playing 
> > field, both server and client? And while some would say "well, UNIX won" 
> > - I don't consider Linux to be "UNIX" just as many here do not.

Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> LINUX Is Not UniX.

Yada yada yada.

Given the choice between Windows dominating the world and Linux dominating
the world, I suspect everyone would still prefer it to be Linux, even
with all its shortcomings.

Nonetheless, I doubt that M$FT will abandon Windows for a Linux kernel
anytime soon.

Arnold

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Dave Horsfall]

On Wed, 9 May 2018, Arthur Krewat wrote:

> Can you imagine a world where one operating system dominates the playing 
> field, both server and client? And while some would say "well, UNIX won" 
> - I don't consider Linux to be "UNIX" just as many here do not.

LINUX Is Not UniX.

-- 
Dave Horsfall BSc DTM (VK2KFU) -- FuglySoft -- Gosford IT -- Unix/C/Perl (AbW)
People who fail to / understand security / surely will suffer. (tks: RichardM)

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Grant Taylor]

On 05/10/2018 07:34 AM, Nemo wrote:
> I can only dream of this... The grunt-and-pokers are all in Legal and 
> they can damage me more than I can damage them.

I frequently figured out a way to make it so that the grunt-and-pokers 
felt like it behooved them to learn how to do things on their own.  The 
likely suspects are 1) faster response time (I came in later than they 
did) and 2) it saved money in that they didn't have to wait on me and I 
didn't have to delay work on other projects.  Thus the (sometimes 
begrudgingly) agreed that learning how to turn on the overhead lights 
was better than waiting on me to come in and do it later.  (Effectively 
speaking.)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180510/45736dfe/attachment.bin>

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Nemo]

On 9 May 2018 at 19:28, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:
> On 05/09/2018 05:08 PM, Nemo wrote:
>>
>> Maybe you do not work with people who only know grunt-and-poke.
>
> Oh, I've worked with them before.
>
> I just go out of my way to edgumicate them.  I'll learn them gud.
>
> (Maybe the 3' pipe wrench has something to do with it.)

I can only dream of this... The grunt-and-pokers are all in Legal and
they can damage me more than I can damage them.

N.

>
> Suffice it to say that I will bend over backwards to teach people how to
> fish for themselves.  I will likely give them fish exactly once.
[...]

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Grant Taylor]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 620 bytes --]

The cast iron gas pipe that I’ve worked in beggars to differ.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

> On May 9, 2018, at 6:32 PM, Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:
> 
> Grant Taylor:
> 
>  (Maybe the 3' pipe wrench has something to do with it.)
> 
> =======
> 
> Real pipes don't need wrenches.  Maybe those in Windows do.
> 
> Norman Wilson
> Toronto ON
> 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 2338 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180509/d3cd2568/attachment.bin>

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Norman Wilson]

Grant Taylor:

  (Maybe the 3' pipe wrench has something to do with it.)

=======

Real pipes don't need wrenches.  Maybe those in Windows do.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Grant Taylor]

On 05/09/2018 05:08 PM, Nemo wrote:
> Maybe you do not work with people who only know grunt-and-poke.

Oh, I've worked with them before.

I just go out of my way to edgumicate them.  I'll learn them gud.

(Maybe the 3' pipe wrench has something to do with it.)

Suffice it to say that I will bend over backwards to teach people how to 
fish for themselves.  I will likely give them fish exactly once.

> I usually making notes in LF-based text format and received so much 
> flack over it that I began running unix2dos before uploading or sending 
> anything. With this, I can now skip the last step.

I'll believe that in five years.  After the version of Notepad that 
supports unix new lines is on current and (then) older systems.  Until 
then, you'll probably still be pandering to them.

I did say that I'm a curmudgeon, didn't I?



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180509/bcc41f99/attachment.bin>

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Nemo]

On 09/05/2018, Nemo <cym224 at gmail.com> wrote:

Oops -- I may have accidentally posted a duplicate. Apologies.

N.

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Nemo]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 462 bytes --]

On 05/09/18 18:23, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
[...]
>
> Is it nice that Notepad will now open files with unix new lines?  Sure.
>
> Do I think it's worth some of the hype that I'm seeing?  Nope.


Maybe you do not work with people who only know grunt-and-poke.

I usually making notes in LF-based text format and received so much
flack over it that I began running unix2dos before uploading or
sending anything. With this, I can now skip the last step.

N.

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Larry McVoy]

On Wed, May 09, 2018 at 06:30:47PM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> How long before they take the Windows GUI and video drivers and slap it on
> top of Linux for a test spin? (if they haven't already)

I've actually wanted this for decades.  The Windows programming environment
leaves a lot to be desired.  And nobody, except app writers, cares about
the kernel, it could be linux and so long as they had backwards compat
Windows APIs everyone would be happy.

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Tim Bradshaw]

On 9 May 2018, at 22:54, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:
> 
> What am I missing?

That the most popular text editor in the world now supports Unix line endings.

(I made that up, but I would not be surprised if it was true).

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Arthur Krewat]

On 5/9/2018 5:54 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> What am I missing? 

I was reading comments on an article about this today, and someone 
raised the idea that Windows is dead, and Microsoft will just switch to 
Linux.

Can you imagine a world where one operating system dominates the playing 
field, both server and client? And while some would say "well, UNIX won" 
- I don't consider Linux to be "UNIX" just as many here do not.

They have SQL Server for Linux now, and they have a Linux subsystem for 
Windows that allows you to run Linux binaries on Windows. I'd love to 
see some benchmarks of SQL Server on Linux vs. Windows.

How long before they take the Windows GUI and video drivers and slap it 
on top of Linux for a test spin? (if they haven't already)

I wonder how Dave Cutler would feel about that? :)

art k.

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Grant Taylor]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 776 bytes --]

On 05/09/2018 03:57 PM, David Arnold wrote:
> Double-click on a .txt file will invoke Notepad, unless you’ve 
> reconfigured things.

Right-click on a .txt file
Left-click on Open With
Left-click on Wordpad
(Optionally) Left-click on "always use this program…"

Sure, it's a preference change.  But it's a user level preference.

Is it nice that Notepad will now open files with unix new lines?  Sure.

Do I think it's worth some of the hype that I'm seeing?  Nope.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180509/f1716a16/attachment.bin>

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[David Arnold]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 745 bytes --]

Double-click on a .txt file will invoke Notepad, unless you’ve reconfigured things.



d

> On 10 May 2018, at 07:54, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:
> 
> On 05/09/2018 02:15 PM, Robert Diamond wrote:
>> 30+ years later…
>> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2018/05/08/extended-eol-in-notepad/
> 
> I guess I'm just a curmudgeon.
> 
> I can't be arsed to care that much about Notepad supporting unix new line.
> 
> Wordpad, which ships with Windows (even if it's not installed by default), has supported unix new line for as long as I can remember.
> 
> So … I don't feel Notepad supporting unix new lines to be that big of a deal.
> 
> What am I missing?
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
> 

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Grant Taylor]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 802 bytes --]

On 05/09/2018 02:15 PM, Robert Diamond wrote:
> 30+ years later…
> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2018/05/08/extended-eol-in-notepad/

I guess I'm just a curmudgeon.

I can't be arsed to care that much about Notepad supporting unix new line.

Wordpad, which ships with Windows (even if it's not installed by 
default), has supported unix new line for as long as I can remember.

So … I don't feel Notepad supporting unix new lines to be that big of a 
deal.

What am I missing?



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180509/25e75e18/attachment.bin>

[TUHS] Windows Notepad to support Unix line endings

[Robert Diamond]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 651 bytes --]

30+ years later…
https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2018/05/08/extended-eol-in-notepad/ <https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2018/05/08/extended-eol-in-notepad/>

---
Robert Diamond
rob at robdiamond.com




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180509/454366e6/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3862 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180509/454366e6/attachment.bin>