Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface

Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface

[anothy]

// I keep hearing this, and it's pithy, no doubt, but I don't really buy it. 
// Talk to a lactation consultant sometime.  People (mothers and infants)
// still have problems.  Newborns have the instinct to suck, but both mother
// and child still need to be taught how to properly latch on (yes, that's
// a technical term).

maybe just further support for the nipple claim? the nipple's intuitive, as
you say most infants have the suck instinct, but maybe it's the breast that's
problematic? if we can't move even _that_ far past the nipple, how do we
expect to come up with an intuitive GUI? ☺

i've tried hard to keep the following consice.

i've shown plan 9 to a number of non-techie (no CS or non-M$/Mac
background) people. results have been, on the whole, favorable. shell stuff
takes a bit of explaining (wildcards and >|< I/O redirection, mainly), but
once that and a few other principles have been learned, most people seem
quite able to build up from there, with only casual coaching. consistant
application of those basic principles is what makes this so.

i'd say that perhaps while the Mac interface was designed to reduce time to
usability, the plan 9 interface reduces time to proficency. the basic principles
take time to learn, but once they are learned, a lot of power can be derived
from them.

i didn't learn plan 9 from the manuals; rather i just mucked around with it.
with my extant unix background, i found it the easiest system to learn i've
found. this was possible only because the basic principles i learned are
consistantly applicable throughout.

when i did sit down and read the manuals cover-to-cover, i still learned
loads of stuff i didn't know, and found loads of stuff i didn't know existed. it
was easy to incorporate because the principles were applied consistantly.

i need a manual for notepad.exe. i don't have a clue what's under the various
top-level menu boxes. hell, if i'd not used M$ before, i wouldn't even know
they're pull downs.

i've found the plan 9 man pages, used in conjunction with lookman, grep,
and acme, the most efficient and comprehensive help system i've used. these
feelings are echoed by many of the above mentioned folks.

i think the ½ required to start the wm was a good idea - it required people to
at least read _something_ before getting started.

lots of  "ordinary human beings" work with it. i don't make the mistake of
thinking that folks who don't understand the system are stupid, but i do tend
to think perhaps they havn't given much time to learning it. please don't make
the mistake of thinking that since you don't understand it, the authors are
stupid. thanks,
-α.

Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface

[Boyd Roberts]

> maybe just further support for the nipple claim? the nipple's intuitive, as
> you say most infants have the suck instinct, but maybe it's the breast that's
> problematic? if we can't move even _that_ far past the nipple, how do we
> expect to come up with an intuitive GUI? ☺

it may well be instinctive but that discounts implementation problems.

> i'd say that perhaps while the Mac interface was designed to reduce time to
> usability, ...

designed to reduce the time before defenestration (sp?) i'd say.

all stolen from PARC and tragically implemented.

Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface

[Boyd Roberts]

> i think the ½ required to start the wm was a good idea - it required people to
> at least read _something_ before getting started.

i don't agree.  that was its name.  and yes, i used a similar brute force approach to
russ' for the v2 pc release.  one problem i had is that i _couldn't_ type ½ so i cheated.

yes, azerty hell.  with some pain i can type qwerty on azerty.

Re: [9fans] User Interface

[Matthew Hannigan]

anothy@cosym.net wrote in part
> ... 
> i've shown plan 9 to a number of non-techie (no CS or non-M$/Mac
> background) people. results have been, on the whole, favorable.
> ...

yes, "shown" -- the power of a demo is rather underestimated.  I learnt
unix from the ref manuals, but I stuck to ed.  vi baffled me. What the
hell is that column of tildes about?!)  But when I saw some fly through
editing jobs it won me over.

I think a little video or even animated gif of someone doing 
something with acme or sam would go a hell of a long way.

Me, I'm stuck with a mouse which refuses to yield any sort
of middle button click, dammit.

-Matt

Re: [9fans] User Interface

[Boyd Roberts]

> What the hell is that column of tildes about?!)

that's nothing.  you should check out how it implements
the ~ command.  it sort of explains why you can't type 10~
well, you can type it, but it doesn't work as you would expect.

Re: [9fans] User Interface

[Dan Cross]

In article <047001c12b7a$c075e1c0$3cf7c6d4@SOMA> you write:
>> What the hell is that column of tildes about?!)
>
>that's nothing.  you should check out how it implements
>the ~ command.  it sort of explains why you can't type 10~
>well, you can type it, but it doesn't work as you would expect.

What, you mean not everyone wants to toggle the case of a single
letter 10 times in a row, automatically?  You know, if you did
it an odd number of times, the case would actually change.  Isn't
that what you want to do?  :-)

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] User Interface

[Boyd Roberts]

> What, you mean not everyone wants to toggle the case of a single
> letter 10 times in a row, automatically?  You know, if you did
> it an odd number of times, the case would actually change.  Isn't
> that what you want to do?  :-)

hang on dan, ~ moves you one char to the right.  think about 10dd

the implementation of ~ was to peek at the character you're sitting
on and then push back on input:

    rCl

where C is the character in the other case.  the count gets lost due
to the 'loop' and the pushback iirc.

what a hideous disaster.  goto fonfon ...

Re: [9fans] User Interface

[Boyd Roberts]

> What, you mean not everyone wants to toggle the case of a single
> letter 10 times in a row, automatically?  You know, if you did
> it an odd number of times, the case would actually change.  Isn't
> that what you want to do?  :-)

hang on dan, ~ moves you one char to the right.  think about 10dd

the implementation of ~ was to peek at the character you're sitting
on and then push back on input:

    rCl

where C is the character in the other case.  the count gets lost due
to the 'loop' and the pushback iirc.

what a hideous disaster.  goto fonfon ...

Re: [9fans] User Interface

[Boyd Roberts]

> What, you mean not everyone wants to toggle the case of a single
> letter 10 times in a row, automatically?  You know, if you did
> it an odd number of times, the case would actually change.  Isn't
> that what you want to do?  :-)

hang on dan, ~ moves you one char to the right.  think about 10dd

the implementation of ~ was to peek at the character you're sitting
on and then push back on input:

    rCl

where C is the character in the other case.  the count gets lost due
to the 'loop' and the pushback iirc.

what a hideous disaster.  goto fonfon ...

Re: [9fans] User Interface

[Dan Cross]

In article <053701c12c10$b0395210$3cf7c6d4@SOMA> you write:
>hang on dan, ~ moves you one char to the right.  think about 10dd
>
>the implementation of ~ was to peek at the character you're sitting
>on and then push back on input:
>
>    rCl
>
>where C is the character in the other case.  the count gets lost due
>to the 'loop' and the pushback iirc.
>
>what a hideous disaster.  goto fonfon ...

Whoops, you are correct, Boyd.  I just logged into a VAX running
4.3BSD, and saw that happen (oddly enough, there's one at CMU you can
login to as guest.  Who knew?).

However, it looks like newer versions of vi fix the problem.  On my
FreeBSD machine at work, 10~ does the right thing [sic], and similarly
on the Sun I'm sending this mail from.

I'll agree though; a purely modal editor is just, well, weird.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] User Interface

[Boyd Roberts]

> Whoops, you are correct, Boyd.  I just logged into a VAX running
> 4.3BSD, and saw that happen (oddly enough, there's one at CMU you can
> login to as guest.  Who knew?).

i was always referring to the original code.  i think i only read
it 'cos i wanted to know why it was so broken.  i don't think i
ever hacked it.  reading the main loop was more than enough.

i see my dumb cable provider managed to send my reply 3 times.

> However, it looks like newer versions of vi fix the problem.

you fix that problem with rm(1).

> I'll agree though; a purely modal editor is just, well, weird.

no, a purely broken editor is, well, a piece of junk.

Re: [9fans] User Interface

[David Lukes]

(Yes, I know this is OT,
 but there's a serious underlying point.)

> the implementation of ~ was to peek at the character you're sitting
> on and then push back on input:
> 
>     rCl
> 
> where C is the character in the other case.  the count gets lost due
> to the 'loop' and the pushback iirc.

It's worse than that, Jim:
in later versions they hacked in a fixed length local buffer and ...
(you can guess the rest).

The serious point is that editors shouldn't do stuff like translation:
that's much better left to specialised external utilities and
smooth interfaces to use them from the editor.

Cheers,
	Dave.

Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface

[anothy]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 99 bytes --]

ew! okay, so 8½ didn't _force_ one to read the
docs, but it sure as hell encouraged it.
-α.


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From: "Russ Cox" <rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:28:48 -0400
Message-ID: <20010820152850.EE4FA19A96@mail.cse.psu.edu>

> i think the ½ required to start the wm was a good idea - it required people to
> at least read _something_ before getting started.

not true.

cp /bin/8? /tmp
rm /tmp/8[acl]
/tmp/8*

that's how i did it when i booted plan 9 the first time. 
brute force and ignorance.

Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface

[Russ Cox]

> i think the ½ required to start the wm was a good idea - it required people to
> at least read _something_ before getting started.

not true.

cp /bin/8? /tmp
rm /tmp/8[acl]
/tmp/8*

that's how i did it when i booted plan 9 the first time. 
brute force and ignorance.

Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface

[Chet Ramey]

In article <6379969760.20010814182414@proweb.co.uk>,
Matt <9fans@cse.psu.edu> wrote:
>i found this attribution
>
>The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
>(Bruce Ediger, bediger@teal.csn.org, in comp.os.linux.misc, on X interfaces.)

I keep hearing this, and it's pithy, no doubt, but I don't really buy it. 
Talk to a lactation consultant sometime.  People (mothers and infants)
still have problems.  Newborns have the instinct to suck, but both mother
and child still need to be taught how to properly latch on (yes, that's
a technical term).

My wife (the nurse-midwife) bemoans the fact that too many mothers give up
on breast feeding too soon for this reason.

Chet

-- 
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
( ``Discere est Dolere'' -- chet)

Chet Ramey, CWRU    chet@po.CWRU.Edu    http://cnswww.cns.cwru.edu/~chet/

Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface

[Matt]

EdR> I am thinking of trying beos instead.
y, I'm sure the mighty userbase will appreciate your arrival.

EdR> My motivation is not to put up with any illconceived idea about how a
EdR> computer should be operated.
Then your only real solution is to write your own OS.

1 button for "shutdown"
1 button for "write electronic letter"
....
1 button for "read inter-web page on electric newspaper"

you could make a 300 key keyboard

oh, Microsoft already did that

Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface

[Matt]

EdR> More sense than making this piece of crap and then blaming users if they
EdR> don't appreciate it?
hehe wake up, time to die


Eric de Redelijkheid <ericdere@xs4all.nl> University of Bath Computing Services, UK

explains it all

probably a Comp. Sci. student

Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface

[Boyd Roberts]

the pie in the sky
turned out to be miles too high

  -- the floyd / roger waters

Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface

[Scott Schwartz]

A note from the moderator:  Let's not argue about this.

Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface

[forsyth]

>>Personally I don't want an interface that has dancing paperclips to
>>tell me how to write a letter but my mum likes it. Things don't always
>>have to be simple to use in the first 5 minutes.

as i think i've said before, my mother saw me using acme, asked for
a demonstration, and liked it.    i've shown people how to use the
basics of acme in a matter of minutes not hours (compared to some other things)
and they often weren't technical either.   one reason is that it relies on the
composition of a small collection of primitives, each of which is easy to explain and learn quickly.

Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface

[forsyth]

>>Personally I don't want an interface that has dancing paperclips to
>>tell me how to write a letter but my mum likes it. Things don't always
>>have to be simple to use in the first 5 minutes.

as i think i've said before, my mother saw me using acme, asked for
a demonstration, and liked it.    i've shown people how to use the
basics of acme in a matter of minutes not hours (compared to some other things)
and they often weren't technical either.   one reason is that it relies on the
composition of a small collection of primitives, each of which is easy to explain and learn quickly.

Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface

[Matt]

EdR> This procedure is absurd. What is wrong with a command like ' shutdown'. 
EdR> Why not a button for a system shutdown? Or a whole sentence: ' please, 
EdR> shutdown the system for power down'. What is the excuse for making a 
EdR> simple task difficult to execute?

because plan9 is not really a single user system. The local disk
system is added in for local storage. If you were using the system as
envisaged you would be booting from the network so you could happily
just switch your terminal off.

if you liek you can write a script called shutdown that executes
disk/kfscmd halt and then echos "you can now switch the computer off
Eric if you so desire".

it's not much different from other systems

only the earliest computers with their OS in rom let you just switch
off without potential damage to the filesystem.

heck in Linux you have to log in as the superuser, type the command,
wait a while for it to sync and then switch off.


EdR> What is a snarf? Should an ordinairy user like me concern myself with
EdR> words I can't find in the dictionary
You can find it in the manual for the windowing system, or the papers
about plan9. "rtfm" I believe is the usual mantra

EdR> The fact that it is made by the same people as
EdR> UNIX tells you nothing about interface design. The existence the old 
EdR> style man pages are an indication.

I think it does to those who know unix.
It suggests that text manipulation will probably control everything.
It suggests "everything is a file".
and plenty of things besides.

old style man pages work for me

EdR>I refuse to work with emacs.
It sounds like you refuse to work at all.

EdR> A user interface is more then just the GUI.
in fact it's not even a gui.
EdR> Functions of the computer and programs should,
EdR> in my opinion, be instinctively understood by the
EdR> user.
Well we all wish that but it really isn't possible. Our interface
understanding is a culmination of all we have learned from other
interfaces. If your understanding doesn't help you move from one
environment to another seemlessly and you are too uncomfortable in
your new place then maybe the move wasn't for you.

EdR> This is not the case with this GUI as a whole, programs like acme 
EdR> and sam or the man pages. (Please, can't we get rid of those?)
feel free to convert the man pages to a format you prefer

EdR> Take the GUI for instance....
it takes maybe 15 minutes to learn, it's a price worth paying

EdR> Without a good and simple easy to use user interface, plan 9 will never 
EdR> be adopted.
it already has one

Is adoption really the goal of someone who writes software esp. an OS?
Aside from the fact that plan9 has been adopted part of the reason it
remains in existence at all is because it solves the problems of it's
authors.

EdR> And the whole effort would have been a pointless exercise.
I think that's pretty insulting.
plan9 is so much more than a bitmap terminal

EdR> As far as a user is concerned the entire computer is the user interface.
You are considering a subset of all users and the naive one's at that.
What is it you want from plan9?
If it's whizzy spreadsheets and watching DVD's then I think you have
found the wrong place.
The world of computing is a big place.
Fitting every OS into *your* view would mean plan9's paradigm would be
ignored.

EdR> Only technicly skilled people (those that we call nerds) can appriciate 
EdR> what is under the hood.
As others on the list may tell you, plan9 is used by plenty of "naive"
users.
And what if plan9 was an OS just for technically skilled people?
Do technically skilled people not have a right to a product that
caters for their needs too?
Personally I don't want an interface that has dancing paperclips to
tell me how to write a letter but my mum likes it. Things don't always
have to be simple to use in the first 5 minutes.

I placed my trust in the people who wrote plan9 and the people here
who write about it and they have not let me down. I invested plenty
of time getting seemingly nowhere but now every precious moment of
that time has been rewarded. Moreover, it has presented me with a new
view on computing. I have learned so much more than "how to use
plan9".

To instantly complain about what you find is understandable and in
almost every field of existence complaining says more about you than
it does about the target of your complaint.

In the old days one would swear at the manual switch the whole thing
off and maybe come back tomorrow or maybe just leave it forever. These
days one writes an email of complaint first :)

I sincerely wish you well on your computing journey.


Matt

Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface

[David Gordon Hogan]

While we're on the subject of user interfaces, perhaps it's
time to quote from Laurie Anderson:

	Well I had a dream
	And in it
	I was teaching cave people
	how to use blenders and toasters
	Well I drive up to the cave
	in my car

	And there they are
	Banging their heads against the walls of the cave
	And I say,

		``Hey folks!
		listen!
		you're doing it the hard way!
		let me show you a thing or two''.


Kind of says it all, really.

Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface

[Matt]

i found this attribution

The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
(Bruce Ediger, bediger@teal.csn.org, in comp.os.linux.misc, on X interfaces.)


on
http://www.mail-archive.com/preview-users@lists.calderasystems.com/msg00202.html

Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface

[Matt]

JM> If you've ever seen, as I have, e.g. a Windows administrator creating
JM> student accounts by printing out the E-mailed list which came from my
JM> University's Administration, and then typing in each student's details
JM> again, then pressing `Create account' and `Ok' buttons (or more!) for
JM> each one, you'll know how bankrupt the idea of (only) direct
JM> manipulation is.

a company i shared an office building with hosted 200 or so web sites
on one NT server. He assigned them all a distinct IP.

One day his box "forgot" it's IIS settings (a frequent occurence
in those days - bit rot on binary files probably)

He had to manually enter the details of all 200 sites.

Each IP had to be entered an octet at a time because of MS's great IP
dialog control.

It took him 20 hours.

how we laughed (but not to his very pissed off face)