* Re: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-14 17:13 anothy
2001-08-14 17:24 ` Re[2]: " Matt
2001-08-15 17:06 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: anothy @ 2001-08-14 17:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
// ...I have never seen a more awkward user interface since twm.
i'm not sure how much of this to attribute to lack of familiarity and how
much to simple personal preference. the GUI is definatly stylistically very
different from any i've seen from any other lineage (X, MS, Mac, etc).
but it is, in my mind, what a UI should be: exactly enough to facilitate
you doing your work, without getting in your way or distracting you.
// ...sam and acme are virtually unusable. Why is it that such a simple
// task as editing the contents of a textfile must cause so much pain?
what specifically is your complaint? i've found sam very easy to learn,
and have taught it to several non-Plan9 (even some non-techie) folks,
with good results. acme is a bit more learning, it's true, but you get a
bunch more out of it (IMHO). and _certainly_ either one gives much
more than any Win32 editor i've seen (well, except sam ☺).
// Why is there not just one single command to create a new user...
if this is a big issue, it's quite easy to script. the commands are both
consistant and simple. the seperation comes, basically, from the fact
that you're really doing seperate operations: adding the user to the
auth database, then adding the user to the file server. both arn't
technically required, although normal operation requires them.
again, the point here is that the commands are simple enough so that
if them being seperate is an issue, you can easialy script them into
something appropriate for your site or installation.
// In my opinion every task performed on a computer [...] should be
// done with the aid of a simple, intuitive, point- and- click, graphical
// user interface.
well, here it just sounds like we're at a philosophical diference. the plan
9 community tends strongly to believe that there are many tasks that
are ill-suited to GUI interaction, and are much more efficiently done
via CLI and scripted interfaces. administrative tasks, as in the examples
provided by other responses, are probably the clearest examples, but
others abound.
i'm also reminded of a quote i read somewhere but can't place:
"The only 'intuitive' interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned."
-α.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-14 17:13 [9fans] User Interface anothy
@ 2001-08-14 17:24 ` Matt
2001-08-17 8:48 ` Chet Ramey
2001-08-15 17:06 ` Boyd Roberts
1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-08-14 17:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: anothy@cosym.net
i found this attribution
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
(Bruce Ediger, bediger@teal.csn.org, in comp.os.linux.misc, on X interfaces.)
on
http://www.mail-archive.com/preview-users@lists.calderasystems.com/msg00202.html
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-14 17:24 ` Re[2]: " Matt
@ 2001-08-17 8:48 ` Chet Ramey
0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Chet Ramey @ 2001-08-17 8:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <6379969760.20010814182414@proweb.co.uk>,
Matt <9fans@cse.psu.edu> wrote:
>i found this attribution
>
>The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
>(Bruce Ediger, bediger@teal.csn.org, in comp.os.linux.misc, on X interfaces.)
I keep hearing this, and it's pithy, no doubt, but I don't really buy it.
Talk to a lactation consultant sometime. People (mothers and infants)
still have problems. Newborns have the instinct to suck, but both mother
and child still need to be taught how to properly latch on (yes, that's
a technical term).
My wife (the nurse-midwife) bemoans the fact that too many mothers give up
on breast feeding too soon for this reason.
Chet
--
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
( ``Discere est Dolere'' -- chet)
Chet Ramey, CWRU chet@po.CWRU.Edu http://cnswww.cns.cwru.edu/~chet/
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-14 17:13 [9fans] User Interface anothy
2001-08-14 17:24 ` Re[2]: " Matt
@ 2001-08-15 17:06 ` Boyd Roberts
1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-08-15 17:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
From: <anothy@cosym.net>
// ...I have never seen a more awkward user interface since twm.
yes, twm is my least hated favourite X window 'manager'.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-20 16:25 anothy
0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: anothy @ 2001-08-20 16:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 99 bytes --]
ew! okay, so 8½ didn't _force_ one to read the
docs, but it sure as hell encouraged it.
-α.
[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1352 bytes --]
From: "Russ Cox" <rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:28:48 -0400
Message-ID: <20010820152850.EE4FA19A96@mail.cse.psu.edu>
> i think the ½ required to start the wm was a good idea - it required people to
> at least read _something_ before getting started.
not true.
cp /bin/8? /tmp
rm /tmp/8[acl]
/tmp/8*
that's how i did it when i booted plan 9 the first time.
brute force and ignorance.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-20 15:28 Russ Cox
0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Russ Cox @ 2001-08-20 15:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> i think the ½ required to start the wm was a good idea - it required people to
> at least read _something_ before getting started.
not true.
cp /bin/8? /tmp
rm /tmp/8[acl]
/tmp/8*
that's how i did it when i booted plan 9 the first time.
brute force and ignorance.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-20 15:02 anothy
2001-08-20 21:01 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-20 21:10 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: anothy @ 2001-08-20 15:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
// I keep hearing this, and it's pithy, no doubt, but I don't really buy it.
// Talk to a lactation consultant sometime. People (mothers and infants)
// still have problems. Newborns have the instinct to suck, but both mother
// and child still need to be taught how to properly latch on (yes, that's
// a technical term).
maybe just further support for the nipple claim? the nipple's intuitive, as
you say most infants have the suck instinct, but maybe it's the breast that's
problematic? if we can't move even _that_ far past the nipple, how do we
expect to come up with an intuitive GUI? ☺
i've tried hard to keep the following consice.
i've shown plan 9 to a number of non-techie (no CS or non-M$/Mac
background) people. results have been, on the whole, favorable. shell stuff
takes a bit of explaining (wildcards and >|< I/O redirection, mainly), but
once that and a few other principles have been learned, most people seem
quite able to build up from there, with only casual coaching. consistant
application of those basic principles is what makes this so.
i'd say that perhaps while the Mac interface was designed to reduce time to
usability, the plan 9 interface reduces time to proficency. the basic principles
take time to learn, but once they are learned, a lot of power can be derived
from them.
i didn't learn plan 9 from the manuals; rather i just mucked around with it.
with my extant unix background, i found it the easiest system to learn i've
found. this was possible only because the basic principles i learned are
consistantly applicable throughout.
when i did sit down and read the manuals cover-to-cover, i still learned
loads of stuff i didn't know, and found loads of stuff i didn't know existed. it
was easy to incorporate because the principles were applied consistantly.
i need a manual for notepad.exe. i don't have a clue what's under the various
top-level menu boxes. hell, if i'd not used M$ before, i wouldn't even know
they're pull downs.
i've found the plan 9 man pages, used in conjunction with lookman, grep,
and acme, the most efficient and comprehensive help system i've used. these
feelings are echoed by many of the above mentioned folks.
i think the ½ required to start the wm was a good idea - it required people to
at least read _something_ before getting started.
lots of "ordinary human beings" work with it. i don't make the mistake of
thinking that folks who don't understand the system are stupid, but i do tend
to think perhaps they havn't given much time to learning it. please don't make
the mistake of thinking that since you don't understand it, the authors are
stupid. thanks,
-α.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-20 15:02 anothy
@ 2001-08-20 21:01 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-20 21:10 ` Boyd Roberts
1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-08-20 21:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> maybe just further support for the nipple claim? the nipple's intuitive, as
> you say most infants have the suck instinct, but maybe it's the breast that's
> problematic? if we can't move even _that_ far past the nipple, how do we
> expect to come up with an intuitive GUI? ☺
it may well be instinctive but that discounts implementation problems.
> i'd say that perhaps while the Mac interface was designed to reduce time to
> usability, ...
designed to reduce the time before defenestration (sp?) i'd say.
all stolen from PARC and tragically implemented.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-20 15:02 anothy
2001-08-20 21:01 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-08-20 21:10 ` Boyd Roberts
1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-08-20 21:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> i think the ½ required to start the wm was a good idea - it required people to
> at least read _something_ before getting started.
i don't agree. that was its name. and yes, i used a similar brute force approach to
russ' for the v2 pc release. one problem i had is that i _couldn't_ type ½ so i cheated.
yes, azerty hell. with some pain i can type qwerty on azerty.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-15 15:56 Scott Schwartz
0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Scott Schwartz @ 2001-08-15 15:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
A note from the moderator: Let's not argue about this.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-15 12:56 forsyth
0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: forsyth @ 2001-08-15 12:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>>Personally I don't want an interface that has dancing paperclips to
>>tell me how to write a letter but my mum likes it. Things don't always
>>have to be simple to use in the first 5 minutes.
as i think i've said before, my mother saw me using acme, asked for
a demonstration, and liked it. i've shown people how to use the
basics of acme in a matter of minutes not hours (compared to some other things)
and they often weren't technical either. one reason is that it relies on the
composition of a small collection of primitives, each of which is easy to explain and learn quickly.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-15 12:56 forsyth
0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: forsyth @ 2001-08-15 12:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>>Personally I don't want an interface that has dancing paperclips to
>>tell me how to write a letter but my mum likes it. Things don't always
>>have to be simple to use in the first 5 minutes.
as i think i've said before, my mother saw me using acme, asked for
a demonstration, and liked it. i've shown people how to use the
basics of acme in a matter of minutes not hours (compared to some other things)
and they often weren't technical either. one reason is that it relies on the
composition of a small collection of primitives, each of which is easy to explain and learn quickly.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-15 5:07 David Gordon Hogan
2001-08-15 17:15 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: David Gordon Hogan @ 2001-08-15 5:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
While we're on the subject of user interfaces, perhaps it's
time to quote from Laurie Anderson:
Well I had a dream
And in it
I was teaching cave people
how to use blenders and toasters
Well I drive up to the cave
in my car
And there they are
Banging their heads against the walls of the cave
And I say,
``Hey folks!
listen!
you're doing it the hard way!
let me show you a thing or two''.
Kind of says it all, really.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-14 13:15 John Murdie
2001-08-14 14:11 ` Re[2]: " Matt
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: John Murdie @ 2001-08-14 13:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans; +Cc: John Murdie
On 14 Aug, Eric de Redelijkheid wrote:
> In my opinion every task performed on a computer:
> - installation
> - administration
> - general use (word processing, spreadsheet, mail etc..)
> - programming
> should be done with the aid of a simple, intuitive, point- and- click,
> graphical user interface.
I recall Brian Kernighan's statement along the lines of: ``The trouble
with WYSIWYG is that What You See Is All That You Get.''
I think that the term WYSIWYG is misused; as far as WYSIWYG goes, it's
fine - _of course_ I want my document preview to be printed as exactly
as I see it on the display - what people usually mean when they say
WYSIWYG is actually `direct manipulation' (Ben Schneiderman, 1983, I
think). This in turn usually means that all grammar more complicated
than `noun-verb' (perhaps modified with adjectives or arguments) has
been removed from the interface.
If you've ever seen, as I have, e.g. a Windows administrator creating
student accounts by printing out the E-mailed list which came from my
University's Administration, and then typing in each student's details
again, then pressing `Create account' and `Ok' buttons (or more!) for
each one, you'll know how bankrupt the idea of (only) direct
manipulation is. Even cutting and pasting by hand wouldn't have saved
them much time. (A Unix or Plan 9 user would pipe the E-mail through
(say) an awk script and finish the student account creation in a matter
of seconds, or minutes if the script didn't pre-exist.) Of course, this
is old hat to most people on this list.
As for intuitive, why, video recorders have exactly the kind of
interface that you describe. Why then are they so difficult to use?
(Ok, some might argue that this is off-topic, but I'd say that it is
connected with the why Plan 9 is as it is.)
--
John A. Murdie
Department of Computer Science
University of York
England
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-14 13:15 John Murdie
@ 2001-08-14 14:11 ` Matt
0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-08-14 14:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: John Murdie
JM> If you've ever seen, as I have, e.g. a Windows administrator creating
JM> student accounts by printing out the E-mailed list which came from my
JM> University's Administration, and then typing in each student's details
JM> again, then pressing `Create account' and `Ok' buttons (or more!) for
JM> each one, you'll know how bankrupt the idea of (only) direct
JM> manipulation is.
a company i shared an office building with hosted 200 or so web sites
on one NT server. He assigned them all a distinct IP.
One day his box "forgot" it's IIS settings (a frequent occurence
in those days - bit rot on binary files probably)
He had to manually enter the details of all 200 sites.
Each IP had to be entered an octet at a time because of MS's great IP
dialog control.
It took him 20 hours.
how we laughed (but not to his very pissed off face)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-14 10:27 Lucio De Re
2001-08-14 12:45 ` pac
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2001-08-14 10:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Tue, Aug 14, 2001 at 11:02:47AM +0100, nigel@9fs.org wrote:
>
> >> btw: is there a shutdown command or do I just switch my laptop of?
>
> I'd just switch it off.
Amen. Lucio.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-14 10:27 Lucio De Re
@ 2001-08-14 12:45 ` pac
2001-08-15 8:34 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
[not found] ` <200108151619.MAA07420@augusta.math.psu.edu>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: pac @ 2001-08-14 12:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>> On Tue, Aug 14, 2001 at 11:02:47AM +0100, nigel@9fs.org wrote:
>> >
>> > >> btw: is there a shutdown command or do I just switch my laptop of?
>> >
>> > I'd just switch it off.
>>
>> Amen. Lucio.
>>
I almost certainly missed the joke (again :-), but I would rather do:
disk/kfscmd halt
Ctl+Alt+Del
(switch it off)
BTW, I was impressed by the Plan 9's GUI when I first saw it.....no, I'm not a hacker or a programmer, see below.
However, I like it for the sake it is minimalistic, yet powerful....no unnecessary bells and whistles (except of being so much colourful).
Nevertheless, it is not GUI, what is central to this OS. _It is a clean concept_.
Unfortunately, I am a newbie, thus not being the proper person even for intro. However, here are the reasons that
convinced me (personally) to prepare to switch to Plan 9:
* clean design, AFAI can tell, no backward compatibility bloat,
* small graphic lib and windowing sys instead of dinosaur X,
* unicode,
* minimalistic, yet powerful GUI (believe me, or not)
* system-wide snarf buffer (but see sam)
(yes, and the fact that Plan 9 is being made by the fathers of Unix sounds like warranty, at least to me).
Although I am capable of doing some C programming, I would classify myself as a user. Yes, and I know the OS called "Windoze"
and it's notepad.exe with its "File is too large to be opened by Notepad..." message. I have 15+ years experience of using
computers, and I have wasted _A LOT_ of time swithching among OSes:
HP programmable calculator in early 80's --> Z80 based computer ---> CP/M --> DOS --> Windows, MacOS --> NEXTSTEP -->
Linux --> (gnu/hurd/mach ... L4Linux on L4Ka .... dreaming of berlin/hurd/L4 would once become true) --> Plan 9.
Please, delay erasing of Plan 9 from your computer, and try to dive deeper.
Good luck, and have a nice day,
Peter.
--
Peter A Cejchan
biologist
Acad. Sci., Prague, CZ
<cej at cejchan dot gli dot cas dot cz>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-14 12:45 ` pac
@ 2001-08-15 8:34 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-15 10:29 ` Re[2]: " Matt
[not found] ` <200108151619.MAA07420@augusta.math.psu.edu>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Eric de Redelijkheid @ 2001-08-15 8:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
pac wrote:
>>>On Tue, Aug 14, 2001 at 11:02:47AM +0100, nigel@9fs.org wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>btw: is there a shutdown command or do I just switch my laptop of?
>>>>>>
>>>>I'd just switch it off.
>>>>
>>>Amen. Lucio.
>>>
>
>I almost certainly missed the joke (again :-), but I would rather do:
>
> disk/kfscmd halt
> Ctl+Alt+Del
> (switch it off)
>
This procedure is absurd. What is wrong with a command like ' shutdown'.
Why not a button for a system shutdown? Or a whole sentence: ' please,
shutdown the system for power down'. What is the excuse for making a
simple task difficult to execute?
>
>
>BTW, I was impressed by the Plan 9's GUI when I first saw it.....no, I'm not a hacker or a programmer, see below.
>However, I like it for the sake it is minimalistic, yet powerful....no unnecessary bells and whistles (except of being so much colourful).
>Nevertheless, it is not GUI, what is central to this OS. _It is a clean concept_.
>
>Unfortunately, I am a newbie, thus not being the proper person even for intro. However, here are the reasons that
>convinced me (personally) to prepare to switch to Plan 9:
>
>* clean design, AFAI can tell, no backward compatibility bloat,
>* small graphic lib and windowing sys instead of dinosaur X,
>* unicode,
>* minimalistic, yet powerful GUI (believe me, or not)
>* system-wide snarf buffer (but see sam)
>(yes, and the fact that Plan 9 is being made by the fathers of Unix sounds like warranty, at least to me).
>
What is a snarf? Should an ordinairy user like me concern myself with
words I can't find in the dictionary (if it is a word in a dictionary, I
have a very cheap one). The fact that it is made by the same people as
UNIX tells you nothing about interface design. The existence the old
style man pages are an indication.
>
>
>Although I am capable of doing some C programming, I would classify myself as a user. Yes, and I know the OS called "Windoze"
>and it's notepad.exe with its "File is too large to be opened by Notepad..." message. I have 15+ years experience of using
>computers, and I have wasted _A LOT_ of time swithching among OSes:
>
I do not need a manual for notepad.exe. I should not need a manual for a
simple task as changing the contents of a text file. I can not work with
sam or acme. In linux, I can hardly work with vi; I only use the very
basic commands like i-nsert, a-ppend, ESC, w-rite, q-uit. Thank god that
I can use the backspace key in editing mode, to erase a character. I
refuse to work with emacs.
>
> HP programmable calculator in early 80's --> Z80 based computer ---> CP/M --> DOS --> Windows, MacOS --> NEXTSTEP -->
>Linux --> (gnu/hurd/mach ... L4Linux on L4Ka .... dreaming of berlin/hurd/L4 would once become true) --> Plan 9.
>
>Please, delay erasing of Plan 9 from your computer, and try to dive deeper.
>Good luck, and have a nice day,
>Peter.
>
>--
>Peter A Cejchan
>biologist
>Acad. Sci., Prague, CZ
><cej at cejchan dot gli dot cas dot cz>
>
A user interface is more then just the GUI. Functions of the computer
and programs should, in my opinion, be instinctively understood by the
user. This is not the case with this GUI as a whole, programs like acme
and sam or the man pages. (Please, can't we get rid of those?)
Take the GUI for instance. Click on the desktop with your right
mouse-button. A pop-up screen apears saying (among others) 'New'.
New?... New what? A new file? A new car? A new job? A new wife?
Select this 'new' whatever and the arrow changes to a cross.
Instinctively I click (left button) this cross, hoping something would
happen. Unfortunaly the cross changes back to an arrow.
Only by fooling around a bit, I found out I can change this cross into a
terminal window, by using the left mouse button and dragging this cross
to a terminal window.
A better aproach in my opinion would be:
- In the pop-up menu say: 'new shell', ' new prompt', 'new window'
instead of just 'New'
- By selecting this 'New.........' , let a window appear with a standard
size immediately. Resizing can be done afterwards.
Without a good and simple easy to use user interface, plan 9 will never
be adopted. And the whole effort would have been a pointless exercise.
As far as a user is concerned the entire computer is the user interface.
Only technicly skilled people (those that we call nerds) can appriciate
what is under the hood.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-15 8:34 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
@ 2001-08-15 10:29 ` Matt
0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-08-15 10:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric de Redelijkheid
EdR> This procedure is absurd. What is wrong with a command like ' shutdown'.
EdR> Why not a button for a system shutdown? Or a whole sentence: ' please,
EdR> shutdown the system for power down'. What is the excuse for making a
EdR> simple task difficult to execute?
because plan9 is not really a single user system. The local disk
system is added in for local storage. If you were using the system as
envisaged you would be booting from the network so you could happily
just switch your terminal off.
if you liek you can write a script called shutdown that executes
disk/kfscmd halt and then echos "you can now switch the computer off
Eric if you so desire".
it's not much different from other systems
only the earliest computers with their OS in rom let you just switch
off without potential damage to the filesystem.
heck in Linux you have to log in as the superuser, type the command,
wait a while for it to sync and then switch off.
EdR> What is a snarf? Should an ordinairy user like me concern myself with
EdR> words I can't find in the dictionary
You can find it in the manual for the windowing system, or the papers
about plan9. "rtfm" I believe is the usual mantra
EdR> The fact that it is made by the same people as
EdR> UNIX tells you nothing about interface design. The existence the old
EdR> style man pages are an indication.
I think it does to those who know unix.
It suggests that text manipulation will probably control everything.
It suggests "everything is a file".
and plenty of things besides.
old style man pages work for me
EdR>I refuse to work with emacs.
It sounds like you refuse to work at all.
EdR> A user interface is more then just the GUI.
in fact it's not even a gui.
EdR> Functions of the computer and programs should,
EdR> in my opinion, be instinctively understood by the
EdR> user.
Well we all wish that but it really isn't possible. Our interface
understanding is a culmination of all we have learned from other
interfaces. If your understanding doesn't help you move from one
environment to another seemlessly and you are too uncomfortable in
your new place then maybe the move wasn't for you.
EdR> This is not the case with this GUI as a whole, programs like acme
EdR> and sam or the man pages. (Please, can't we get rid of those?)
feel free to convert the man pages to a format you prefer
EdR> Take the GUI for instance....
it takes maybe 15 minutes to learn, it's a price worth paying
EdR> Without a good and simple easy to use user interface, plan 9 will never
EdR> be adopted.
it already has one
Is adoption really the goal of someone who writes software esp. an OS?
Aside from the fact that plan9 has been adopted part of the reason it
remains in existence at all is because it solves the problems of it's
authors.
EdR> And the whole effort would have been a pointless exercise.
I think that's pretty insulting.
plan9 is so much more than a bitmap terminal
EdR> As far as a user is concerned the entire computer is the user interface.
You are considering a subset of all users and the naive one's at that.
What is it you want from plan9?
If it's whizzy spreadsheets and watching DVD's then I think you have
found the wrong place.
The world of computing is a big place.
Fitting every OS into *your* view would mean plan9's paradigm would be
ignored.
EdR> Only technicly skilled people (those that we call nerds) can appriciate
EdR> what is under the hood.
As others on the list may tell you, plan9 is used by plenty of "naive"
users.
And what if plan9 was an OS just for technically skilled people?
Do technically skilled people not have a right to a product that
caters for their needs too?
Personally I don't want an interface that has dancing paperclips to
tell me how to write a letter but my mum likes it. Things don't always
have to be simple to use in the first 5 minutes.
I placed my trust in the people who wrote plan9 and the people here
who write about it and they have not let me down. I invested plenty
of time getting seemingly nowhere but now every precious moment of
that time has been rewarded. Moreover, it has presented me with a new
view on computing. I have learned so much more than "how to use
plan9".
To instantly complain about what you find is understandable and in
almost every field of existence complaining says more about you than
it does about the target of your complaint.
In the old days one would swear at the manual switch the whole thing
off and maybe come back tomorrow or maybe just leave it forever. These
days one writes an email of complaint first :)
I sincerely wish you well on your computing journey.
Matt
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <200108151619.MAA07420@augusta.math.psu.edu>]
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
[not found] ` <200108151619.MAA07420@augusta.math.psu.edu>
@ 2001-08-16 8:28 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-16 10:26 ` Re[2]: " Matt
2001-08-16 11:10 ` Matt
0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Eric de Redelijkheid @ 2001-08-16 8:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Dan Cross wrote:
>In article <3B793F22.5080707@xs4all.nl> you write:
>
>>This procedure is absurd. [...]
>>
>
>Rather, your behavior is absurd.
>
>Let me get this straight; you use a piece of software, but with
>pre-conceived notions about how it should work. When it's borne out
>that those notions don't mesh with the reality the software presents,
>you complain about and insult the software?
>
>And this makes sense to you?
>
More sense than making this piece of crap and then blaming users if they
don't appreciate it? I think insults can work out in two way's. Either
the software designers come up with something better, or there will be
nothing left to insult.
>
>
>I mean, not to be rude or anything, but this sounds more like your
>issue than Plan 9's.
>
>All I can really say is, well, if notepad.exe works for you, stick with
>it. Why you bothering to change? What's your motivation? If you're
>not going to attempt to learn a new way of doing things, and it sounds
>like you're not, you should probably just stick with what you know.
>
I am very willing to learn new things. This OS, however does not invite
a me to learn about it. For your information I finally figured how to
operate 'acme' and 'sam' and I still think it is stinks. It won't be
long before I wipe my harddisk. I am thinking of trying beos instead. My
motivation is not to put up with any illconceived idea about how a
computer should be operated.
>
>
>On a personal note, I really like Plan 9. It's a lot like a breath of
>fresh air for me; but then I like to think that I'm able to appreciate
>the new ideas that went into it, which took me quite a long time before
>I was able to do. Maybe Dennis Ritchie and Rob Pike don't appreciate
>my humor about 1200 baud modems (:-p), but they do know a thing or two
>about how to write operating systems.
>
These new ideas won't mean a thing if you can't get ordinary human
beings to work with it. And knowing a thing or two about operating
systems, does not mean they know anything about how someone in the real
world would want to use a computer.
>
>Hmm, maybe it's that stuff they sell in Amsterdam....
>
You could not point the place on a map if you wanted to. What are your
hobbies besides computing and shooting strangers of your farm?
>
>
>Oh, one other thing: I don't think the `goal' of Plan 9 was wide-spread
>acceptance. It was built to meet the needs of the people who built
>it. There's nothing wrong with that, and it certainly wasn't a waste
>of time. This can be seen empirically by the fact that they've used it
>for years to get real work done. To the extent that it's provided a
>new way of looking at things, I think it's been rather successful as a
>research endeavour, too. Don't make the mistake of assuming that every
>piece of software needs to be written for a mass-audience of millions
>in order to be successful or useful.
>
Then why is it for sale? To hurt users? If it is just an excercise in
building a distributed operating system, why let it out of the lab?
>
>
>That's all I'll say on the issue; I have no real desire to participate
>in a flame war over opinions on user interface issues.
>
> - Dan C.
>
And I don't want to hear excuses like: if a user can't operate our
software, we are not to blame; this user must be stupid, or: I can
operate this software, so logicly if I can, anyone can.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-16 8:28 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
@ 2001-08-16 10:26 ` Matt
2001-08-16 11:10 ` Matt
1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-08-16 10:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans; +Cc: Eric de Redelijkheid
EdR> More sense than making this piece of crap and then blaming users if they
EdR> don't appreciate it?
hehe wake up, time to die
Eric de Redelijkheid <ericdere@xs4all.nl> University of Bath Computing Services, UK
explains it all
probably a Comp. Sci. student
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-16 8:28 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-16 10:26 ` Re[2]: " Matt
@ 2001-08-16 11:10 ` Matt
1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-08-16 11:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric de Redelijkheid; +Cc: ericdere
EdR> I am thinking of trying beos instead.
y, I'm sure the mighty userbase will appreciate your arrival.
EdR> My motivation is not to put up with any illconceived idea about how a
EdR> computer should be operated.
Then your only real solution is to write your own OS.
1 button for "shutdown"
1 button for "write electronic letter"
....
1 button for "read inter-web page on electric newspaper"
you could make a 300 key keyboard
oh, Microsoft already did that
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2001-08-20 21:10 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 18+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2001-08-14 17:13 [9fans] User Interface anothy
2001-08-14 17:24 ` Re[2]: " Matt
2001-08-17 8:48 ` Chet Ramey
2001-08-15 17:06 ` Boyd Roberts
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2001-08-20 16:25 Re[2]: " anothy
2001-08-20 15:28 Russ Cox
2001-08-20 15:02 anothy
2001-08-20 21:01 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-20 21:10 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-15 15:56 Scott Schwartz
2001-08-15 12:56 forsyth
2001-08-15 12:56 forsyth
2001-08-15 5:07 David Gordon Hogan
2001-08-15 17:15 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-14 13:15 John Murdie
2001-08-14 14:11 ` Re[2]: " Matt
2001-08-14 10:27 Lucio De Re
2001-08-14 12:45 ` pac
2001-08-15 8:34 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-15 10:29 ` Re[2]: " Matt
[not found] ` <200108151619.MAA07420@augusta.math.psu.edu>
2001-08-16 8:28 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-16 10:26 ` Re[2]: " Matt
2001-08-16 11:10 ` Matt
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).