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* [9fans] source code as data not text
@ 2001-06-18  0:31 Matt
  2001-06-18  8:52 ` Laura Creighton
  2001-06-28 21:56 ` Boyd Roberts
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-06-18  0:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Maybe I'm not hard-core enough but one thing I miss is syntax highlighting.

And if you go so far as to parse the source code in the editor then you can
use the opportunity to develop the idea.

There are some good ideas in a paper here http://mindprod.com/scid.html
about source code living in a database rather than a plain text file.

The basic premise is that when an editor knows about what source code is and
does it can offer new views of it etc.

Anyone got any views of their own?

matt



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] source code as data not text
@ 2001-06-18  7:43 nigel
  2001-06-18  9:07 ` Laura Creighton
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: nigel @ 2001-06-18  7:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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>> The basic premise is that when an editor knows about what source code is and
>> does it can offer new views of it etc.
>> 
>> Anyone got any views of their own?

Yes.

It's not a matter of being hard-core. The fundamental premise is that
text is the only universal format. If you keep the 'data' in a 'database',
then how do other tools reason on it? Only if they can read the format,
of course. This tends to mean, "only if they're from the same vendor".
Keeping your 'data' in a universally agreed format is important. I would
contend that text is the only one for source code.

Having structural information is important, but the common format
must not thrown away in pursuit of it. The concept is in direct
opposition to the toolset principle.

But, in this case, the guy is actually promoting strict syntax
directed editing, a well-worn-out concept. Under the section "Real
World SCID Implementations", he says

	The usual reaction I get from programmers when I mention SCIDs is that
	they have tried them and they hate them.  What they have tried are
	coding templates where you fill in the blanks.  These stop you from
	coding in the old way, yet offer almost no payback.  Granted SCIDs
	will force you to rethink how you compose programs.  Code must at all
	times be 100% syntactically correct.  However, a good SCID will pay
	back 100 fold for this inconvenience.  If you try to import or paste
	code that is not correct, you will find much of it being turned into a
	special kind of comment

'Nuff said. You really don't want it. The last thing you want when in the
middle of creating something is to have an editor forcing you to dot
the I's and cross the t's.

Composition of programs is not linear, in exactly the same way as a
novelist might be writing the introduction, the guts, and the end all
at the same time.  So even if syntactically correct entry is an
improvement over coding templates, they both force an uncomfortable
approach which strangles creativity.  The programmers aren't wrong,
there is plenty of research to support this, and he shouldn't be so
dismissive.

Every so often someone ressurects this idea.  In this case, despite
his claim to have been promoting it since the 70's, he doesn't mention
any of the classic research on the subject, which started at least as
early as the 70's.

Try reading papers on the Gandalf project as a starting point.


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From: "Matt" <matt@proweb.co.uk>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: [9fans] source code as data not text
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 01:31:13 +0100
Message-ID: <00d701c0f78d$fb26d750$6401a8c0@freeze2k>

Maybe I'm not hard-core enough but one thing I miss is syntax highlighting.

And if you go so far as to parse the source code in the editor then you can
use the opportunity to develop the idea.

There are some good ideas in a paper here http://mindprod.com/scid.html
about source code living in a database rather than a plain text file.

The basic premise is that when an editor knows about what source code is and
does it can offer new views of it etc.

Anyone got any views of their own?

matt

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] source code as data not text
@ 2001-06-18  7:45 nigel
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: nigel @ 2001-06-18  7:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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Oh, and the link to SeeSoft is broken too.


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From: "Matt" <matt@proweb.co.uk>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: [9fans] source code as data not text
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 01:31:13 +0100
Message-ID: <00d701c0f78d$fb26d750$6401a8c0@freeze2k>

Maybe I'm not hard-core enough but one thing I miss is syntax highlighting.

And if you go so far as to parse the source code in the editor then you can
use the opportunity to develop the idea.

There are some good ideas in a paper here http://mindprod.com/scid.html
about source code living in a database rather than a plain text file.

The basic premise is that when an editor knows about what source code is and
does it can offer new views of it etc.

Anyone got any views of their own?

matt

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] source code as data not text
@ 2001-06-18 14:45 anothy
  2001-06-19 16:51 ` Barry
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: anothy @ 2001-06-18 14:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

//I have no idea why close to every human being on the planet
//feels the compelling need to write their own  strcmp...

i think i could dig up a _few_ people who've never expressed any
desire to write a strcmp. ☺
-α.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* RE: [9fans] source code as data not text
@ 2001-06-18 15:24 anothy
  2001-06-19  3:52 ` Richard Elberger
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: anothy @ 2001-06-18 15:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

//In my opinion, you're on the right track.

so how do you deal with the concerns raised? for one, the probability that a
database-based source code repository would lock you into a specific vendor?
and while i'm not entirely clear on what exactly lac was refering to, can you
deny the usefulness of being able to "grep ^foo(" in code, or suggest that a
databasse system would make that easier somehow? again, as noted earlier,
db-based source code systems are another failure to use the little-tools
model appropriatly.

and as dan points out, SCCS/CVS style stuff is not what's at issue here.

//In fact, you'd be surprised how many big software companies are already
//moving that way...

much to my dismay, i believe you. but then, i'm often suprised how many big
companies are doing _lots_ of things i consider stupid. PeopleSoft, anyone?

the most involved syntax highlighting i find useful is paren/bracket/quote/&c
matching. i could imagine an editor that did that well (acounting for the
language-specific escapes and such) being quite nice. more than that i've not
found useful, and it's distracting and damaging to people who're learning.
and what acme's got now is good 95 times out of 100.
-α.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <dhog@plan9.bell-labs.com>]
* Re: [9fans] source code as data not text
@ 2001-06-28 21:17 Boyd Roberts
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-06-28 21:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

merde, this message was meant for laura.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Boyd Roberts" <boyd@fr.inter.net>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [9fans] source code as data not text 


> > Cutting and pasting code is plain evil.
> 
> you said it.
> 
> back in paris and i have eurocave catalogue.
> 
> that stuff is is _way cool_.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2001-06-28 22:17 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 22+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2001-06-18  0:31 [9fans] source code as data not text Matt
2001-06-18  8:52 ` Laura Creighton
2001-06-18  9:13   ` Matt
2001-06-18 10:02     ` Richard Elberger
2001-06-18 14:56   ` Dan Cross
2001-06-28 21:56 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-18  7:43 nigel
2001-06-18  9:07 ` Laura Creighton
2001-06-28 21:00   ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-28 22:02   ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-18  7:45 nigel
2001-06-18 14:45 anothy
2001-06-19 16:51 ` Barry
2001-06-18 15:24 anothy
2001-06-19  3:52 ` Richard Elberger
     [not found] <dhog@plan9.bell-labs.com>
2001-06-18 18:48 ` David Gordon Hogan
2001-06-18 21:31   ` Steve Kilbane
2001-06-19 21:03     ` Richard Elberger
2001-06-19 21:31       ` Steve Kilbane
2001-06-19  7:36   ` Richard Elberger
2001-06-28 22:17   ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-28 21:17 Boyd Roberts

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