[9fans] Old Pharts Reminiscing?

[9fans] Old Pharts Reminiscing?

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

--On Sunday, November 16, 2003 10:18 PM -0500 Dan Cross
<cross@math.psu.edu> wrote:

>> but  if nobody teaches these folks the error of their ways, how can
>> it ever  stop? I don't think most of us have the energy to attempt
>> that any  more. (Or in my case, the patience.)

> More to the point, I'm not sure it's possible.  People aren't
> interested in learning how to program elegantly

I don't agree. The people who want to, or like to, learn will have this
interest. But most of the people getting into software these days
aren't interested in programming, engineering, or even learning for
that matter. It's all about padding your resume.

> (try telling Theo
> Deraadt that he could program more elegantly.  For that matter, try
> telling him he could do *anything* differently),

Quit picking on Theo. I don't agree with him much of the time, either,
but unlike the other people we're discussing here, he does engage his
brain and work for what he thinks is right (just like we do). There's
no dishonour in respecting your opponent.

> What's more, we're seeing a lot of
> people who confuse installed base and popularity with quality.

Critical Thinking as a core subject through the entire education
process? Hrmph. It's a nice dream....

> Often
> times when I tell people I use Plan 9, the first question they ask me
> is, ``why?''

I would have expected them to respond ``what?''

--lyndon

Re: [9fans] Old Pharts Reminiscing?

[boyd, rounin]

> There's no dishonour in respecting your opponent.

no, that sounds like a Taylor '2nd level disagreement'.

or the very same reaction soldiers have when they have
fought, defeated or been defeated by their 'enemy'.

perhaps the 'Old Pharts' are passing knowledge in the
'verbal' tradition, used by cultures that have no written
language or reliable digital media ;)

Re: [9fans] Old Pharts Reminiscing?

[Sam]

> > More to the point, I'm not sure it's possible.  People aren't
> > interested in learning how to program elegantly
>
> I don't agree. The people who want to, or like to, learn will have this
> interest. But most of the people getting into software these days
> aren't interested in programming, engineering, or even learning for
> that matter. It's all about padding your resume.

I'm not so sure it's necessarily the new programmer's fault.
I went through school without a single utterance on the topic.
The person responsible for teaching introductory programming gave
higher scores to those individuals who littered their code with comments.

"Comments and whitespace make code easy to read, so use lots of them."

There were a few good programmers in the department, but they taught
advanced courses.  By the time the classes came up most people were lost
and resorting to lifting implementations from the 'net for the grade --
as a group, even.  I happened to get lucky and find a mentor after
graduation who sat a stack of books on my desk to set me straight.

I'm exceedingly convinced that's the way to learn coding -- instruction in
the fundamentals combined with application from someone in the trade.
It's a pity the latter isn't more prevalent in education since the
combination of history and craftsmanship can make all the difference.

'Course, I'm still learning my history. :)

Sam

Re: [9fans] Old Pharts Reminiscing?

[Dan Cross]

Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca> writes:
> --On November 16, 2003 10:18 PM -0500 Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu> wrote:
> > More to the point, I'm not sure it's possible.  People aren't
> > interested in learning how to program elegantly
>
> I don't agree. The people who want to, or like to, learn will have this
> interest. But most of the people getting into software these days
> aren't interested in programming, engineering, or even learning for
> that matter. It's all about padding your resume.

We're quibbling over semantics here, but to be fair, when I said
``People aren't interested...'' I should have said, ``The majority of
people aren't interested...''.  There's always a small percentage of
people who want to learn how to do things well, but as the number of
programmers grows, that segment of the programming population becomes
asymptotically small.  What's more, there are people who want to learn,
``The GNU way'' or ``The BSD way'' or ``The Linux kernel way'' thinking
that's the best way, and who aren't willing to put in the effort to
learn anything above or beyond that.

> > (try telling Theo
> > Deraadt that he could program more elegantly.  For that matter, try
> > telling him he could do *anything* differently),
>
> Quit picking on Theo. I don't agree with him much of the time, either,
> but unlike the other people we're discussing here, he does engage his
> brain and work for what he thinks is right (just like we do). There's
> no dishonour in respecting your opponent.

He's one of the better examples of the problem.  There's nothing wrong
with standing up for what is right, but there *is* something wrong with
standing up for what you *think* is right without having an open mind.
Theo doesn't have an open mind.

> > What's more, we're seeing a lot of
> > people who confuse installed base and popularity with quality.
>
> Critical Thinking as a core subject through the entire education
> process? Hrmph. It's a nice dream....

Indeed it is, but the trend is endemic to the computer industry, not
just in academia.

> > Often
> > times when I tell people I use Plan 9, the first question they ask me
> > is, ``why?''
>
> I would have expected them to respond ``what?''

Well, that's the 1-1'th question.....

	- Dan C.