* [9fans] A prick into the wasps' nest ;-)
@ 2004-06-07 7:09 cej
2004-06-07 15:53 ` Rob Pike
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: cej @ 2004-06-07 7:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Hi, friends,
I post, with permission, an excerpt from a debate between me and Wlad Los wlad@mipk.kharkiv.edu ...
... would love to hear reactions from you!
Best regards,
++pac.
===============
> Vladimir Los wlad@mipk.kharkiv.edu wrote:
>
> http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/native/WebScreen.html
> :o)
> And it was the same interface in the middle of 80ths...
> As always IT community doesnt think about Wirth's work seriously. And
> then (after years) makes similar solutions...
>
++pac:
Perhaps you don't know that Acme was indeed inspired by Oberon interface, see http://cm.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/acme/acme.html
however, it seems to me [without personal experience with it] that Oberon's menus are ordinary menus, not ordinary *text* that can be inserted/modified by the user...
Wlad:
> Oh! excuse me! Really I didn't know about it!
>
> > however, it seems to me [without personal experience with it] that
> > Oberon's menus are ordinary menus, not ordinary *text* that can be
> > inserted/modified by the user...
>
> Now it is my turn to say "Perhaps you don't know that..." :o)
> In Oberon there is nothing but OBJECTS! You can insert/modify
> EVERYTHING. There is no difference between any things in the system
> ("files", texts, pics, labels, text formatters and scanners, items of
> menu - as you asked, ...) everything can be accessed and be
> manipulated
> by the same way. And it was from the beginning of Oberon system
> (aproxim. 1986 - I think...)
> You can insert different controls in "text" or you can insert
> text into
> a "form" or you can even compile a button label (if you want
> think about
> it as a program text) :o)))))
> Sometime I wonder very much why programmers doesn't know about these
> systems. May be programmers when they hear word "Wirth" think
> "Ahhh, I
> know Wirth is a Pascal inventor! But Pascal is the language for
> educational goals and not for "real" and "serious" programming.
> Consequently the systems developed by Wirth can not be serious." :o)))
>
> But I sometime think that Wirth "took the baton from
> bell-labs" when he
> return from there. Almost all famous solutions were made in
> Zurich and
> then applied by "grands" of IT industry...
>
very interesting, but how can I live without C?
:o))))
There were my thoghuts some time ago too!!! Of course I have to spend
some time to teach new system - but you have to do this for every new
system! :o)
And yet one thing! Oberon diffirintiate from other world very much! It
is not "better" or "worse" - it is DIFFERENT. I have to take a habit... ;o)
> I'm a biologist and I need to run also ordinary "programs"
> I have ported 50+ ones from various dialects of C to plan9 native C,
> and now I should learn Oberon language and port... :-(
I am not a "violator". I have some spare/free time and I have seen your
message... ;o)
Of course it is your decission to learn thomething or not... ;o) I just give you an advice. And my impressions. I know c/c++, Modula-2,
Forth, Delphi, Smalltalk. The better it willl be to say "I worked in
them". But three years one my friend shown me Aos (it is the last of
ETHZ OS) And I will be "killed"... :o) THeir model of multitasking (and
synchronization) is something!!! Aos (or bluebottle
http://www.bluebottle.ethz.ch) is the result of 20 years researches. I
think it is the same sutiation - NOBODY else couldn't do the same OS.
And community even doesn't realize and understand WHAT has appeared!!!
;o) The most of programmers are under the presse of old paradigms?
models and thinkings...
++pac:
> In Oberon, can I just rewrite the text on a button of a running
program, without recompilation,
> and the program just does this another command?
> Acme does this.
By this example I tried to show the flexibility of the system... :o) But! Of course YOU CAN CHANGE THE behavior of every control without
recompilation. There many ways to do this. One of them - to change value
of field Link. :o)
And yet some words...
Rob Pike rob@plan9.bell-labs.com
Originally appeared in Proc. of the Winter 1994 USENIX Conf., pp.
223-234, San Francisco, CA
"Cedar was, however, the major inspiration for Oberon [Wirt89], a system
of similar scope but much smaller scale. Through careful selection of
Cedar's ideas, Oberon shows that its lessons can be applied to a small,
coherent system that can run efficiently on modest hardware. In fact,
Oberon probably errs too far towards simplicity: a single-process system
with weak networking, it seems an architectural throwback."
Sometime I think why creators of most famouse OS of XX cent. look like
children or like liars. If you can remember other "father" of Unix Brian
Kernighan in his Why "Pascal is Not My Favorite Programming Language"
criticizes Pascal.
But in both cases their "arguments" and "facts" are very week and may be
even false! It concernrs Brian's knowing of pascal development and Rob's
estimation of Oberon...
One interesting question is Why do they speak wrong things? May be they
can look Oberon's potentials and they try to "avert" the attention of
community from Wirth's systems and works. But then they use Wirth's
result in their works! This is very interesting! I look at Limbo and
what I can see - Oberon with a mask! All the time they say "garbage
collection is a very bad thing", but introduce it into Inferno. "Byte
code is a waste of time" - but use it after Sun (which in their turn
used GC and byte-code after slim-binaries of Oberon).
Of course Oberon (and its desc-s) are not so popular. But we have veru
strange state in our branch. Everybody use "popular" systems. These
systems use solutions developed in Wirth's labs. But these solutions in
those popular systems are not "native". They are fasten to those systems
with restrictions and under "other ideology" - they can not reveal all
of their advantages... In result we have half-decisions and we have to
correct problems due to them...
And get looped circle again!
Wlad:
Now I am reading and I think that I walked in the dark forest using else
but not Oberon and Plan9.
Now I am even afraid I have to go to Plan9! :o)))
I like it more and more while I'm reading about it! :o)
I'm going to stay after my work today and download it...
++pac:
> [Oeron] has things
> that Plan9 does not, eg. objects -- I suppose that GUI in Oberon is just a
> dynamic object that other programs-objects talk to,
Something different. GUI IS a set of objects. We have several defined
interfaces and you can implement them and achieve neded functionality.
Of course the system has predefined implementations of interfaces and
then it works... :o)
> so any change to this single object affects all other programs talking
> to it, am I right?
Yes as we could see if you change for example any property (through
Colombo - program-object to access working objects) this change
transforms the object "on the fly". More You can change implementation
of any objects without "stopping" the system or any part of it. For example I just can relink refference to other "window manager" and
my interface becomes 3D or like in Windows...
Of course to achieve such flexibility you (your objects) must fulfil
some rules (support defined interfaces).
And the most pleasure for me is GARBAGE COLLECTOR!!!!!!!!
I know I am not the most attentive homo in this Universe. I make a great
deal of mistakes concerning alloc/free of memory. May be it is due to my
thoughts about rules of proper language are flying behind the thoughts
about problem I am solving... :o)
But with GC I became to focus only on problem domain not on system low
level specific things.
I have got very strong habit to program in GC-language. IT'S VERY
COMFORTABLE AND YOUR PRODICTIVITY GROWS MUCH MORE! And I am not going to
change such class of systems to something else. May be Java (and system
based on it), or Limbo (in Inferno), or Smalltalk... :o)
> Plan 9 even has no shared libs (like .so, .dll), thus you have to
> relink everything each time you make a change in a library. Everything
> is statically linked. They state that shared libs are not needed,
> though not harmful if appropriately used.
???????????????????????????
It is something new for me!!!! And Pike can write that Oberon is step
backward????????? :o))))
The dynamic linking and loading is one of the "elephant" to achieve
flexibility.
Now ETHZ is ending new core of Aos. It becomes real-time. That's great news!
> nevertheless, shared libs are not true objects. I'm not the proper
> person to discuss pros and cons of OO paradigm. I was pursuaded I can
> live w/o objects :-)
Oh, no! It's just a mirage! I can assure you 101% :o) I can't live w/o
objects! Nobody can! :o) Unix was so successful because of it was
defined one very useful and common OBJECT - "FILE"... :o)))) And I wont
speak about graphical library. May be you can't inherit from library's
object but the ideology ot those libraries is object.
===============
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] A prick into the wasps' nest ;-)
2004-06-07 7:09 [9fans] A prick into the wasps' nest ;-) cej
@ 2004-06-07 15:53 ` Rob Pike
2004-06-08 7:32 ` Vladimir Los
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Rob Pike @ 2004-06-07 15:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
acme and the acme paper were written many years ago,
when oberon was vastly less capable than it is now.
oberon was and is an interesting system; you know
what they say about imitation.
however, even today, i don't think oberon has an analog
to the key new idea in acme: acquisition with button 3.
-rob
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] A prick into the wasps' nest ;-)
2004-06-07 15:53 ` Rob Pike
@ 2004-06-08 7:32 ` Vladimir Los
2004-06-08 11:00 ` [9fans] wasp's answer... :o) Vladimir Los
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Vladimir Los @ 2004-06-08 7:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
Rob Pike wrote:
> acme and the acme paper were written many years ago,
> when oberon was vastly less capable than it is now.
> oberon was and is an interesting system; you know
> what they say about imitation.
Excme, Rob, what do they say about imitation? :o)
> however, even today, i don't think oberon has an analog
> to the key new idea in acme: acquisition with button 3.
What's wrong with button 3?
Have you any plans to add real-time features to Plan9 or Inferno?
Where can I read about requirements to resources for minimum
installation of Inferno?
Did you heared about QNX? What is your oppinion about it?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* [9fans] wasp's answer... :o)
2004-06-08 7:32 ` Vladimir Los
@ 2004-06-08 11:00 ` Vladimir Los
2004-06-08 18:18 ` [9fans] A prick into the wasps' nest ;-) Sape Mullender
[not found] ` <40C6C6E8.1000302@chunder.com>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Vladimir Los @ 2004-06-08 11:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
This is the answer from one of the participant of Oberon discussion list
http://www.delphikingdom.com/asp/talktopic.asp?ID=285&ref=msg&msg=1402#msg1402
. The text is in cyrillic.
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
На ?сообщение 1401? (Владимир):
Прочитал статью на http://www.citforum.ru/operating_systems/inferno/.
Первая часть - полностью описание оберон-системы. Вторая часть -
описание кастрации оберон-системы под соусом Великих Усовершенствований.
Это что, шутка?
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
My translation of it:
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
On message 1401 (Vladimir)
I have read an article at http://www.citforum.ru/operating_systems/inferno/.
First part is an Oberon system abstract desription. Second part is a
description of a castration (castrating) of Oberon system with a
dressing (sauce) "Great Improvements".
Was it a joke?
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] A prick into the wasps' nest ;-)
2004-06-08 7:32 ` Vladimir Los
2004-06-08 11:00 ` [9fans] wasp's answer... :o) Vladimir Los
@ 2004-06-08 18:18 ` Sape Mullender
2004-06-08 18:55 ` Mark F Rodriguez
[not found] ` <40C6C6E8.1000302@chunder.com>
2 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Sape Mullender @ 2004-06-08 18:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> Have you any plans to add real-time features to Plan9 or Inferno?
> Where can I read about requirements to resources for minimum
> installation of Inferno?
man proc
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* RE: [9fans] A prick into the wasps' nest ;-)
2004-06-08 18:18 ` [9fans] A prick into the wasps' nest ;-) Sape Mullender
@ 2004-06-08 18:55 ` Mark F Rodriguez
2004-06-08 18:58 ` William Josephson
2004-06-08 19:05 ` rog
0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Mark F Rodriguez @ 2004-06-08 18:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'
> > Have you any plans to add real-time features to Plan9 or Inferno?
> > Where can I read about requirements to resources for minimum
> > installation of Inferno?
>
> man proc
Probably more suited for the Inferno list, but man proc results in "No
matches" when issued from the Windows-hosted emu. I read the man page online
and it would be very nice to have a similar utility in Inferno. Am I missing
something?
Thanks,
-Mark
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] A prick into the wasps' nest ;-)
2004-06-08 18:55 ` Mark F Rodriguez
@ 2004-06-08 18:58 ` William Josephson
2004-06-08 19:05 ` rog
1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: William Josephson @ 2004-06-08 18:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
On Tue, Jun 08, 2004 at 02:55:29PM -0400, Mark F Rodriguez wrote:
> Probably more suited for the Inferno list, but man proc results in "No
> matches" when issued from the Windows-hosted emu. I read the man page online
> and it would be very nice to have a similar utility in Inferno. Am I missing
> something?
Try it under Plan 9 or read the Plan 9 manual pages on the web.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* RE: [9fans] A prick into the wasps' nest ;-)
2004-06-08 18:55 ` Mark F Rodriguez
2004-06-08 18:58 ` William Josephson
@ 2004-06-08 19:05 ` rog
2004-06-08 19:39 ` Mark F Rodriguez
1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: rog @ 2004-06-08 19:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: macrod, 9fans
> Probably more suited for the Inferno list, but man proc results in "No
> matches" when issued from the Windows-hosted emu. I read the man page online
> and it would be very nice to have a similar utility in Inferno. Am I missing
> something?
inferno does not currently have any realtime support. (it's not
clear to what extent this could be done on a non-native
platform anyway).
also, its process device is called "prog", not "proc", so "man prog"
or "wm/man prog" gives a more useful result.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* RE: [9fans] A prick into the wasps' nest ;-)
2004-06-08 19:05 ` rog
@ 2004-06-08 19:39 ` Mark F Rodriguez
2004-06-08 20:50 ` boyd, rounin
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Mark F Rodriguez @ 2004-06-08 19:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'
> inferno does not currently have any realtime support. (it's not
> clear to what extent this could be done on a non-native
> platform anyway).
I'm not sure about other platforms, but don't Linux(2.6), FreeBSD Plan9
(from reading man proc), and Windows support [soft] realtime within the OS
out-of-the-box? I know you can get a POSIX 1003.1b implementation to bring
your OS (at least those with source available) up to realtime specs. Perhaps
one could [re]build the platform emu with a flag setting specifying whether
or not they have realtime support (Windows, Plan9 or POSIX)???
I can easily see how this could present a challenge on non-native platforms
even if the hosting platform had real-time support, but I can also see great
benefits to having realtime capabilities within native Inferno. Are there no
plans to support proc (perhaps with different results depending on host w/o
realtime support vs. native Inferno or host with realtime support)?
>
> also, its process device is called "prog", not "proc", so "man prog"
> or "wm/man prog" gives a more useful result.
Thanks for the clarification, I had recently read man prog but was hoping
the realtime features of proc (i.e., period, deadline, cost, yieldonblock,
etc.) where somewhere hidden within Inferno.
Thanks,
-Mark
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] A prick into the wasps' nest ;-)
2004-06-08 19:39 ` Mark F Rodriguez
@ 2004-06-08 20:50 ` boyd, rounin
0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-06-08 20:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: macrod, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
> Thanks for the clarification, I had recently read man prog but was hoping
> the realtime features of proc (i.e., period, deadline, cost, yieldonblock,
> etc.) where somewhere hidden within Inferno.
does embedded/dedicated system mean anything?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <40C6C6E8.1000302@chunder.com>]
* Re: [9fans] A prick into the wasps' nest ;-)
[not found] ` <40C6C6E8.1000302@chunder.com>
@ 2004-06-20 22:35 ` vdharani
0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: vdharani @ 2004-06-20 22:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs, inferno-list
Bruce,
> $50 386 from china. copy the conf file and delete
> the drivers you don't need. type mk. enjoy.
can you provide any pointers?
> or the wrt54g router is a more expensive minimum.
i want to buy one and try it out. will you or someone be able to provide
me instructions on how to get started? Can I do tftp boot?
how easy is it to get started with this hardware?
for a long time, i wanted to play with this. if someone can help me, it
would be great.
thanks
dharani
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
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-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2004-06-07 7:09 [9fans] A prick into the wasps' nest ;-) cej
2004-06-07 15:53 ` Rob Pike
2004-06-08 7:32 ` Vladimir Los
2004-06-08 11:00 ` [9fans] wasp's answer... :o) Vladimir Los
2004-06-08 18:18 ` [9fans] A prick into the wasps' nest ;-) Sape Mullender
2004-06-08 18:55 ` Mark F Rodriguez
2004-06-08 18:58 ` William Josephson
2004-06-08 19:05 ` rog
2004-06-08 19:39 ` Mark F Rodriguez
2004-06-08 20:50 ` boyd, rounin
[not found] ` <40C6C6E8.1000302@chunder.com>
2004-06-20 22:35 ` vdharani
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