Re: [9fans] rio & acme & plan9

Re: [9fans] rio & acme & plan9

[Tom Simons]

I have had trouble getting a handle on Plan9.  I got it working on an
old PC, but didn't understand if I had a file server, cpu server,
terminal, or all 3.  The screens looked great, but I never quite got
the hang of using it.  Can Rio/Acme run under Windows or Linux?  I'd
love to give it another shot. Must/should you have separate file/cpu
servers?

I also really would like to see an SF-bay meeting, if only to see
Plan9 in action. I've been using command-line interfaces since
teletypes & 026 keypunches, and I remain convinced that I could learn
another one.

>
> I've been trying to think of ways to evangelize rio and acme.  It's a
> tough sell - there is no "new user" subset.
> In particular, to be at all effective with rio (and especially acme)
> you need to be a capable command-line user and understand how to
> compose those primitives.  This means that no beginner will be able
> to pick up our beloved interface and get work done, even after giving
> them the 3-button low-down.  There just aren't any training wheels,
> and these days even expert users use the training wheels when in
> parts of the system they aren't familiar with.
>
> I think it's a losing battle.
>
> Paul
>

Re: [9fans] rio & acme & plan9

[erik quanstrom]

you can run p9p (http://swtch.com/plan9port) on linux which
gives you acme and a rio-like window manager.   i did for some
time before switching to plan 9.

if you do run plan 9, you do not need to run a seperate fileserver.
you can set up a cpu/auth/file server and run drawterm on linux
instead of having a terminal.

- erik

On Fri May  4 16:08:35 EDT 2007, tom.simons@gmail.com wrote:
> I have had trouble getting a handle on Plan9.  I got it working on an
> old PC, but didn't understand if I had a file server, cpu server,
> terminal, or all 3.  The screens looked great, but I never quite got
> the hang of using it.  Can Rio/Acme run under Windows or Linux?  I'd
> love to give it another shot. Must/should you have separate file/cpu
> servers?

Re: [9fans] rio & acme & plan9

[ron minnich]

May 10 at google, Tom; see you there .

Ron

Re: [9fans] rio & acme & plan9

[Federico Benavento]

hola

you can also run caerwyn's acme sac on windows, which
is an inferno that runs acme, it might look overkill to install
inferno just to have acme, but it isn't, just 25mb in my HD
and it uses less ram that most gtk apps.

http://caerwyn.com/acme/

On 5/4/07, Tom Simons <tom.simons@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have had trouble getting a handle on Plan9.  I got it working on an
> old PC, but didn't understand if I had a file server, cpu server,
> terminal, or all 3.  The screens looked great, but I never quite got
> the hang of using it.  Can Rio/Acme run under Windows or Linux?  I'd
> love to give it another shot. Must/should you have separate file/cpu
> servers?
>
> I also really would like to see an SF-bay meeting, if only to see
> Plan9 in action. I've been using command-line interfaces since
> teletypes & 026 keypunches, and I remain convinced that I could learn
> another one.
>
> >
> > I've been trying to think of ways to evangelize rio and acme.  It's a
> > tough sell - there is no "new user" subset.
> > In particular, to be at all effective with rio (and especially acme)
> > you need to be a capable command-line user and understand how to
> > compose those primitives.  This means that no beginner will be able
> > to pick up our beloved interface and get work done, even after giving
> > them the 3-button low-down.  There just aren't any training wheels,
> > and these days even expert users use the training wheels when in
> > parts of the system they aren't familiar with.
> >
> > I think it's a losing battle.
> >
> > Paul
> >
>


-- 
Federico G. Benavento

Re: [9fans] rio & acme & plan9

[Wes]

I've had some success compiling a cpu+auth+term plan9 kernel for a
learning box before, worked really well too.  I would ask why it's not
done by default but then I remind myself 'thats not the plan9 way to
think!' and ignore my own question. :)

Wes

On 5/5/07, Federico Benavento <benavento@gmail.com> wrote:
> hola
>
> you can also run caerwyn's acme sac on windows, which
> is an inferno that runs acme, it might look overkill to install
> inferno just to have acme, but it isn't, just 25mb in my HD
> and it uses less ram that most gtk apps.
>
> http://caerwyn.com/acme/
>
> On 5/4/07, Tom Simons <tom.simons@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I have had trouble getting a handle on Plan9.  I got it working on an
> > old PC, but didn't understand if I had a file server, cpu server,
> > terminal, or all 3.  The screens looked great, but I never quite got
> > the hang of using it.  Can Rio/Acme run under Windows or Linux?  I'd
> > love to give it another shot. Must/should you have separate file/cpu
> > servers?
> >
> > I also really would like to see an SF-bay meeting, if only to see
> > Plan9 in action. I've been using command-line interfaces since
> > teletypes & 026 keypunches, and I remain convinced that I could learn
> > another one.
> >
> > >
> > > I've been trying to think of ways to evangelize rio and acme.  It's a
> > > tough sell - there is no "new user" subset.
> > > In particular, to be at all effective with rio (and especially acme)
> > > you need to be a capable command-line user and understand how to
> > > compose those primitives.  This means that no beginner will be able
> > > to pick up our beloved interface and get work done, even after giving
> > > them the 3-button low-down.  There just aren't any training wheels,
> > > and these days even expert users use the training wheels when in
> > > parts of the system they aren't familiar with.
> > >
> > > I think it's a losing battle.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> >
>
>
> --
> Federico G. Benavento
>

Re: [9fans] rio & acme & plan9

[Kim Shrier]

On May 7, 2007, at 1:02 AM, Wes wrote:

> I've had some success compiling a cpu+auth+term plan9 kernel for a
> learning box before, worked really well too.  I would ask why it's not
> done by default but then I remind myself 'thats not the plan9 way to
> think!' and ignore my own question. :)
>
> Wes
>

OK, since I am new to plan 9, and I am interested in the plan 9 way
to think, could you explain what is wrong with a cpu+auth+term kernel?
Just to put forward my ignorance, I would think that you would need
to have term plus any other server you needed.  I would think that I
need some sort of console access to any kind of server.  Would that
not entail having a terminal server at a minimum?

Kim

Re: [9fans] rio & acme & plan9

[erik quanstrom]

a cpu server is a shared service, assumed to be running all the time.
a terminal is a personal machine that is not assumed to be up when
the user is not logged in.  you're supposed to be able to turn off your
terminal when you go home.

so the idea of running auth on a personal machine doesn't really make
sense.  and although you can run fossil on a terminal, this makes it
harder to just turn the machine off.

so i think the minimum setup (outside of a stand alone laptop) needs
at least a cpu/auth/file server and a terminal, or drawterm.

i did run a standalone terminal+fossil for a while but with no authentication.
not that it mattered -- there was no one to authenticate.

- erik

Re: [9fans] rio & acme & plan9

[Kim Shrier]

On May 7, 2007, at 12:29 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:

> a cpu server is a shared service, assumed to be running all the time.
> a terminal is a personal machine that is not assumed to be up when
> the user is not logged in.  you're supposed to be able to turn off  
> your
> terminal when you go home.
>

Just to make sure I have this straight, a cpu server is not running
a terminal server as its console.  The keyboard, mouse, and display
on the cpu server are not under the control of a terminal server.

> so the idea of running auth on a personal machine doesn't really make
> sense.  and although you can run fossil on a terminal, this makes it
> harder to just turn the machine off.
>

That makes sense.

> so i think the minimum setup (outside of a stand alone laptop) needs
> at least a cpu/auth/file server and a terminal, or drawterm.
>

That is the setup I am going for (cpu/auth/file server and drawterm).
However, for someone who only has one machine, what is the preferred
setup and why?

I realize that the previous question could be an invitation to a holy
war.  That is not my intent.  I have been thinking about computers from
a UNIX perspective for a long time and I have a lot of inertia to
overcome. Explanations of motivation or why something is done the way it
is, is very instructive to me at my current state of non-understanding.

> i did run a standalone terminal+fossil for a while but with no  
> authentication.
> not that it mattered -- there was no one to authenticate.
>
> - erik
>

Kim

Re: [9fans] rio & acme & plan9

[erik quanstrom]

On Mon May  7 15:00:02 EDT 2007, kim@tinker.com wrote:
> Just to make sure I have this straight, a cpu server is not running
> a terminal server as its console.  The keyboard, mouse, and display
> on the cpu server are not under the control of a terminal server.

yes.  except in plan 9 a terminal is the opposite of a server so 
they're generally refered to as terminals.

> That is the setup I am going for (cpu/auth/file server and drawterm).
> However, for someone who only has one machine, what is the preferred
> setup and why?

i don't think anything is perferred about such a setup.  however, i
ran a terminal with fossil only for about 6 months before i got a fs working.
this was acceptable for working on stuff.

> I realize that the previous question could be an invitation to a holy
> war.  That is not my intent.  I have been thinking about computers from
> a UNIX perspective for a long time and I have a lot of inertia to
> overcome. Explanations of motivation or why something is done the way it
> is, is very instructive to me at my current state of non-understanding.

sounds like you're getting it.  the papers in /sys/doc are still good, though
dated.

- erik