From: Uriel <lost.goblin@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net>
Subject: Re: [9fans] "Blocks" in C
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 01:03:17 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <5d375e920909061603i428f54bfm97179b168f0af11d@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <3e1162e60909040756r3e114e84v82412406620d22cc@mail.gmail.com>
On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 4:56 PM, David Leimbach<leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 7:20 AM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> > I could be wrong, but I feel like you're not really interested in
>> > entertaining that this idea could be useful, but more interested in
>> > shooting
>> > it down [...]
>>
>> remember, if a guy says to the king, hey you're fly's undone,
>> we send that guy to the stockades for a week. meanwhile
>> the king's fly remains undone.
>>
>> since the raison d'etre of blocks is ease of programming,
>> i would think it would follow that it should be uniformly
>> easier across the board. if there are big exceptions to this
>> (like extra locking), i would think the feature would earn
>> a fail.
>>
>
> I am totally agreeing with you so far on all points you've just made. And I
> think that's why Apple is seeking feedback.
Here is some feedback for Apple: Fire your whole software and
programming division, they are making the GNU and Gnome crack monkeys
look sane, competent and responsible.
uriel
> The advantage of the higher
> level languages that were designed with concurrency in the language, is that
> you don't feel like you're twiddling the bits manually so much to express an
> algorithm.
>
>>
>> i'm just noting that if blocks require locking as you mention,
>> then this is inferior to calling a function through a pointer.
>
> Indeed.
>
>>
>> unless you don't accept more locking is worse, it's hard to
>> argue this point.
>
> My entire point is this will often allow you to get away with far less
> locking, or at least, that's what the intention of all of this is.
>
>>
>> you can accuse me of hating, that won't change how blocks
>> work.
>
>
> I'm not saying you are hating on blocks, I said I'm beginning to feel as if
> perhaps you're trying to find holes in it, but you keep saying things that I
> don't think are true about them. For example, claiming that blocks require
> more locking is evidently false if you look at example code that's been
> provided. DispatchLife, for example, includes contextual data pointing to
> neighboring cells, and because of the serial nature of the queues involved,
> it's impossible to have two threads updating the same shared data at once.
> The story is different if you take those same blocks, and have them
> scheduled to run on the global concurrent queue, in which case many of them
> could be running at once. So if you code it up incorrectly, you sure could
> have to do some locking. But if you take advantage of the (too many in my
> opinion) abstractions provided that help to guarantee you will not need
> locking, then you shouldn't need to do any explicit locking of shared state.
> And that is exactly why Apple bothered to do all of this. If not, they're
> totally wasting their time, because, as you've said, to create something
> that would require more locking is a big lose.
>
>>
>> > Deep down inside, I want people to stop trying to code stuff like this
>> > in C
>> > and try the massively scaled parallelism/concurrency stuff in other
>> > languages better suited to the problem space.
>>
>> why would you use c then?
>
> Because if I wanted to write something for Mac OS X, and I needed it to work
> with Grand Central Dispatch, I've not been provided a lot of options at the
> moment to do anything else.
> Dave
>>
>> - erik
>>
>
>
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2009-09-06 23:03 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 117+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2009-09-02 8:04 Anant Narayanan
2009-09-02 9:43 ` Francisco J Ballesteros
2009-09-02 11:00 ` Philippe Anel
2009-09-02 11:13 ` Charles Forsyth
2009-09-03 9:52 ` Greg Comeau
2009-09-02 11:40 ` Eris Discordia
2009-09-02 12:32 ` Uriel
2009-09-02 14:20 ` Devon H. O'Dell
2009-09-03 9:52 ` Greg Comeau
2009-09-03 10:48 ` Akshat Kumar
2009-09-03 11:25 ` Charles Forsyth
2009-09-03 13:59 ` Greg Comeau
2009-09-03 15:15 ` Uriel
2009-09-03 15:44 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-03 16:01 ` Roman V Shaposhnik
2009-09-04 9:15 ` Greg Comeau
2009-09-04 16:49 ` Roman Shaposhnik
2009-09-03 16:02 ` erik quanstrom
2009-09-03 18:56 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-03 18:58 ` erik quanstrom
2009-09-03 19:13 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-03 19:36 ` erik quanstrom
2009-09-03 19:50 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-03 20:30 ` Iruata Souza
2009-09-06 22:35 ` Uriel
2009-09-07 0:41 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-03 21:08 ` Roman V Shaposhnik
2009-09-03 21:35 ` erik quanstrom
2009-09-03 21:45 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-03 21:49 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-03 21:51 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-03 22:36 ` Roman V Shaposhnik
2009-09-04 9:16 ` Greg Comeau
2009-09-03 22:10 ` Daniel Lyons
2009-09-03 22:07 ` Daniel Lyons
2009-09-04 9:15 ` Greg Comeau
2009-09-04 3:21 ` Anant Narayanan
2009-09-04 3:52 ` erik quanstrom
2009-09-04 4:18 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-04 4:44 ` erik quanstrom
2009-09-04 5:31 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-04 5:35 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-04 7:11 ` Bakul Shah
2009-09-04 7:47 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-04 14:41 ` Bakul Shah
2009-09-04 15:04 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-04 15:58 ` Bakul Shah
2009-09-04 12:14 ` erik quanstrom
2009-09-04 13:52 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-04 13:59 ` matt
2009-09-04 14:20 ` erik quanstrom
2009-09-04 14:56 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-06 23:03 ` Uriel [this message]
2009-09-07 0:45 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-04 16:50 ` Roman Shaposhnik
2009-09-04 6:45 ` Bakul Shah
2009-09-04 16:44 ` Roman Shaposhnik
2009-09-04 16:58 ` Iruata Souza
2009-09-04 17:09 ` Roman Shaposhnik
2009-09-04 17:42 ` erik quanstrom
2009-09-04 18:34 ` erik quanstrom
2009-09-04 21:54 ` Roman V Shaposhnik
2009-09-07 9:06 ` Greg Comeau
2009-09-07 9:05 ` Greg Comeau
2009-09-07 9:40 ` Uriel
2009-09-08 15:31 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-08 15:44 ` Uriel
2009-09-08 16:40 ` Bakul Shah
2009-09-11 18:15 ` Iruata Souza
2009-09-11 18:46 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-11 20:36 ` Roman V Shaposhnik
2009-09-11 21:28 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-14 16:07 ` Lawrence E. Bakst
2009-09-12 11:08 ` Anant Narayanan
2009-09-13 19:03 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-17 1:54 ` Lawrence E. Bakst
2009-09-17 8:43 ` Charles Forsyth
2009-09-17 9:12 ` Daniel Lyons
2009-09-17 15:56 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-17 17:38 ` Jack Norton
2009-09-17 20:23 ` Anant Narayanan
2009-09-17 20:26 ` erik quanstrom
2009-09-17 20:31 ` Anant Narayanan
2009-09-17 20:47 ` Akshat Kumar
2009-09-17 21:02 ` erik quanstrom
2009-09-17 22:26 ` Steve Simon
2009-09-17 22:32 ` Roman V Shaposhnik
2009-09-18 2:05 ` Daniel Lyons
2009-09-18 9:30 ` Charles Forsyth
2009-09-18 11:41 ` erik quanstrom
2009-09-17 21:03 ` Uriel
2009-09-03 9:52 ` Greg Comeau
2009-09-02 14:08 ` Rodolfo (kix)
2009-09-03 9:52 ` Greg Comeau
[not found] ` <C56117D7BD9A097270529AAE@192.168.1.2>
2009-09-02 15:07 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-02 15:26 ` Roman V Shaposhnik
2009-09-02 15:45 ` David Leimbach
2009-09-03 15:32 ` Uriel
2009-09-03 15:49 ` Roman V Shaposhnik
2009-09-03 15:54 ` erik quanstrom
2009-09-03 16:20 ` Roman V Shaposhnik
2009-09-03 16:44 ` erik quanstrom
2009-09-04 1:05 ` Roman V Shaposhnik
2009-09-04 1:30 ` Russ Cox
2009-09-04 1:32 ` erik quanstrom
2009-09-03 21:54 ` James Tomaschke
2009-09-06 22:26 ` Uriel
2009-09-04 9:04 ` Greg Comeau
2009-09-02 15:20 ` Roman V Shaposhnik
2009-09-02 17:51 ` Bakul Shah
2009-09-04 1:35 drivers
2009-09-04 1:52 ` erik quanstrom
2009-09-17 9:19 Andrew Simmons
2009-09-17 14:45 ` LiteStar numnums
2009-09-17 17:24 ` Daniel Lyons
2009-09-18 15:50 drivers
2009-09-18 15:56 ` erik quanstrom
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=5d375e920909061603i428f54bfm97179b168f0af11d@mail.gmail.com \
--to=lost.goblin@gmail.com \
--cc=9fans@9fans.net \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).