[9fans] music storage

[9fans] music storage

[erik quanstrom]

i finally got motivated and ripped ~250 cds today.
total storage is just 149.6GiB even though i just stored
the raw pcm.  i am still using the
cdfs from the dump.  this one to be exact
	/n/dump/2011/1128/amd64/bin/cdfs
even so there still appears to be a race.  if one
executes a command from /mnt/cd (thus open(2)'ing
the command there) and waits one second, and then
ls(1)s /mnt/cd, there are many fewer failures to read
the toc.  this appears to be some sort of race, perhaps
just in caching a negative result.

i averaged buring 20-25 cds/hr including filling out the
song names &c scraped from freedb.  it was no problem
ripping and playing at the same time.

i'm using cinap's hda (azalia) driver, so i can do all this
in native amd64 plan 9.

on top of that i'm using the music jukebox in games with
the lightest of modifications to allow it to run at all on
amd64.

so, is anyone else using plan 9 audio.  if so, what's your setup?

- erik

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Jacob Todd]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 225 bytes --]

I've used/have been using plan 9 (9front) for music listening, I haven't
tried ripping a cd yet. I had written something in rc that took a directory
name and just used play to play whatever was there. Nothing spectacular.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 250 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Conor Williams]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 383 bytes --]

i used use mpg123 for playing mp3's...

you don't like mp3's?



On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:39 AM, Jacob Todd <jaketodd422@gmail.com> wrote:

> I've used/have been using plan 9 (9front) for music listening, I haven't
> tried ripping a cd yet. I had written something in rc that took a directory
> name and just used play to play whatever was there. Nothing spectacular.
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 757 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[cinap_lenrek]

he is refering to play(1) command in 9front which does
recognize the following audio formats:

mp3, ogg, wav, flac, au

it understands pls and m3u playlist formats.

it can also play a mp3 stream url using hget.

its just an rc script that runs file(1) to guess
the format and then runs a matching audio(1) decoder.

--
cinap

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Conor Williams]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 500 bytes --]

yeah ok, but why did he not rip to mp3 is what I mean...


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:44 AM, <cinap_lenrek@felloff.net> wrote:

> he is refering to play(1) command in 9front which does
> recognize the following audio formats:
>
> mp3, ogg, wav, flac, au
>
> it understands pls and m3u playlist formats.
>
> it can also play a mp3 stream url using hget.
>
> its just an rc script that runs file(1) to guess
> the format and then runs a matching audio(1) decoder.
>
> --
> cinap
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Jacob Todd]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 239 bytes --]

On Dec 8, 2013 10:55 PM, "Conor Williams" <conor.williams@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> yeah ok, but why did he not rip to mp3 is what I mean...
>
I have an already existing collection of all of my cds, I didn't see the
need to do it again.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 352 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Jacob Todd]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 26 bytes --]

Rip them again, that is.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 43 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Conor Williams]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 422 bytes --]

i used use acd to play cd's which resided at:

http://www.acl.lanl.gov/plan9/software/3e.html

but it's gone... probably there somewhere after a root... let me know if
you want me to find it...


why didn't Erik rip to Mp3, i what I mean... an album is typically 50MB as
opposed to 650MB

--





On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 3:59 AM, Jacob Todd <jaketodd422@gmail.com> wrote:

> Rip them again, that is.
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 941 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[cinap_lenrek]

i didnt think of that... :D

just downloading a torrent with the mp3's seems simpler
than swapping cd's. :)

--
cinap

Re: [9fans] music storage

[andrey mirtchovski]

> i used use acd to play cd's which resided at:
>
> http://www.acl.lanl.gov/plan9/software/3e.html
>
> but it's gone... probably there somewhere after a root... let me know if you
> want me to find it...

it's now here, together with the rest of the remains of the LANL Plan
9 centre's web presence of the early 2000s:

http://mirtchovski.com/lanlp9/software/3e.html

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Conor Williams]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 618 bytes --]

cool man... am trying to dig up the port of Tcl I had too... I would love
to have it up on that page if you had space?



On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 4:16 AM, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com>wrote:

> > i used use acd to play cd's which resided at:
> >
> > http://www.acl.lanl.gov/plan9/software/3e.html
> >
> > but it's gone... probably there somewhere after a root... let me know if
> you
> > want me to find it...
>
> it's now here, together with the rest of the remains of the LANL Plan
> 9 centre's web presence of the early 2000s:
>
> http://mirtchovski.com/lanlp9/software/3e.html
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1158 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[andrey mirtchovski]

> cool man... am trying to dig up the port of Tcl I had too... I would love to
> have it up on that page if you had space?

that mirror is for archival purposes only. unfortunately you won't see
anything past 2002 there.

i suggest you put your tcl port on sources or elsewhere where modern
stuff is hosted.

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Conor Williams]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 566 bytes --]

ok cool man... give me 24 hours... i freakin' deleted one of my old email
addresses where i had everything in some sort of darn order...


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 4:50 AM, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com>wrote:

> > cool man... am trying to dig up the port of Tcl I had too... I would
> love to
> > have it up on that page if you had space?
>
> that mirror is for archival purposes only. unfortunately you won't see
> anything past 2002 there.
>
> i suggest you put your tcl port on sources or elsewhere where modern
> stuff is hosted.
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 913 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[erik quanstrom]

> why didn't Erik rip to Mp3, i what I mean... an album is typically 50MB as
> opposed to 650MB

i can answer that.  i wanted full quality, and 150G is less than 15% of the
space i've got.  i've got a pair of by the time i run out, i'll have more space.
my srx presents a lun that the fs uses entirely for media.  it's backed by
a pair of enterprise 1T drives in raid 1.  the low iops of these drives is
not a problem since the bitrate of audio is low by modern standards,
and the stream is largely sequential.

> just downloading a torrent with the mp3's seems simpler
> than swapping cd's. :)

non legal is a non option for me.

but even if it were, one can use the "never underestimate the bandwidth
of a station wagon full of 9 track tapes" principle.  it only took 6-8 hrs
of bad cycles, as sam calls them, to get the bulk of these disks loaded.
with my network connection it would have been ~10 days of torture.

> he is refering to play(1) command in 9front which does
> recognize the following audio formats:

backscatter from another list?  who is "he" and who refered
to play before?

anyway, that brings up another advantage of pcm:

	cat *.pcm > /dev/audio

- erik

Re: [9fans] music storage

[cinap_lenrek]

"he" is mr. todd.

> Jacob Todd <jaketodd422@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've used/have been using plan 9 (9front) for music listening, I haven't
> tried ripping a cd yet. I had written something in rc that took a directory
> name and just used play* to play whatever was there. Nothing spectacular.

* the word that is refering to play(1)

--
cinap

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Steve Simon]

> just downloading a torrent with the mp3's seems simpler
> than swapping cd's. :)

Just beware, in my experience of this (for research purposes,
yes really!) many, if not most CD images in WAV or PCM format
are in fact decodes of MP3s, and many of these where low bitrate
MP3s which are nasty.

personally I have moved away from compressed audio, not because
I distrust compression, but I like browsing through a pile of CDs
looking for somthing that matches my mood - for me the user interface
is better; perhaps its my age.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Steven Stallion]

I gave up some time back and ripped the family's cd collection (around
500 discs) to ALAC. After that I converted most to AAC for listening
on audio players and left the original rips sitting in storage.
Needless to say, Goodwill was a little surprised to find 500 discs
donated at once!

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:
>> just downloading a torrent with the mp3's seems simpler
>> than swapping cd's. :)
>
> Just beware, in my experience of this (for research purposes,
> yes really!) many, if not most CD images in WAV or PCM format
> are in fact decodes of MP3s, and many of these where low bitrate
> MP3s which are nasty.
>
> personally I have moved away from compressed audio, not because
> I distrust compression, but I like browsing through a pile of CDs
> looking for somthing that matches my mood - for me the user interface
> is better; perhaps its my age.
>
> -Steve
>

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Conor Williams]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1119 bytes --]

jees, i traded a bit of quality for space


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:04 PM, Steven Stallion <sstallion@gmail.com> wrote:

> I gave up some time back and ripped the family's cd collection (around
> 500 discs) to ALAC. After that I converted most to AAC for listening
> on audio players and left the original rips sitting in storage.
> Needless to say, Goodwill was a little surprised to find 500 discs
> donated at once!
>
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:
> >> just downloading a torrent with the mp3's seems simpler
> >> than swapping cd's. :)
> >
> > Just beware, in my experience of this (for research purposes,
> > yes really!) many, if not most CD images in WAV or PCM format
> > are in fact decodes of MP3s, and many of these where low bitrate
> > MP3s which are nasty.
> >
> > personally I have moved away from compressed audio, not because
> > I distrust compression, but I like browsing through a pile of CDs
> > looking for somthing that matches my mood - for me the user interface
> > is better; perhaps its my age.
> >
> > -Steve
> >
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1615 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Steven Stallion]

Honestly ALAC isn't half bad. I believe the compression ratio is
around 40-50%. Given how plentiful storage is these days, it was a
small price to pay for everlasting quality.

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Conor Williams <conor.williams@gmail.com> wrote:
> jees, i traded a bit of quality for space
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:04 PM, Steven Stallion <sstallion@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I gave up some time back and ripped the family's cd collection (around
>> 500 discs) to ALAC. After that I converted most to AAC for listening
>> on audio players and left the original rips sitting in storage.
>> Needless to say, Goodwill was a little surprised to find 500 discs
>> donated at once!
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:
>> >> just downloading a torrent with the mp3's seems simpler
>> >> than swapping cd's. :)
>> >
>> > Just beware, in my experience of this (for research purposes,
>> > yes really!) many, if not most CD images in WAV or PCM format
>> > are in fact decodes of MP3s, and many of these where low bitrate
>> > MP3s which are nasty.
>> >
>> > personally I have moved away from compressed audio, not because
>> > I distrust compression, but I like browsing through a pile of CDs
>> > looking for somthing that matches my mood - for me the user interface
>> > is better; perhaps its my age.
>> >
>> > -Steve
>> >
>>
>

Re: [9fans] music storage

[erik quanstrom]

On Mon Dec  9 17:14:07 EST 2013, conor.williams@gmail.com wrote:

> jees, i traded a bit of quality for space

how little space / how much music do you have?

- erik

Re: [9fans] music storage

[erik quanstrom]

On Mon Dec  9 16:05:18 EST 2013, sstallion@gmail.com wrote:
> I gave up some time back and ripped the family's cd collection (around
> 500 discs) to ALAC. After that I converted most to AAC for listening
> on audio players and left the original rips sitting in storage.
> Needless to say, Goodwill was a little surprised to find 500 discs
> donated at once!

i alphebetized 'em and put 'em in the storage room.  always liked
the artwork, and so far i've been too lazy to scan the cd & liner.

- erik

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Conor Williams]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 462 bytes --]

just got 10,000 Maniacs from the library "Blind man's zoo" for free, ripped
it to Mp3 and it only takes up about 60 MB... I have a nice 2 computer
network going about 100GB on each...


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:39 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>wrote:

> On Mon Dec  9 17:14:07 EST 2013, conor.williams@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > jees, i traded a bit of quality for space
>
> how little space / how much music do you have?
>
> - erik
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 919 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Conor Williams]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1742 bytes --]

FLAC seems huge (again) compared to Mp3 but I will try the Flac - according
to:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/654057/alac-vs-flac
there is good compression alright...


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:18 PM, Steven Stallion <sstallion@gmail.com>wrote:

> Honestly ALAC isn't half bad. I believe the compression ratio is
> around 40-50%. Given how plentiful storage is these days, it was a
> small price to pay for everlasting quality.
>
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Conor Williams <conor.williams@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > jees, i traded a bit of quality for space
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:04 PM, Steven Stallion <sstallion@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I gave up some time back and ripped the family's cd collection (around
> >> 500 discs) to ALAC. After that I converted most to AAC for listening
> >> on audio players and left the original rips sitting in storage.
> >> Needless to say, Goodwill was a little surprised to find 500 discs
> >> donated at once!
> >>
> >> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:
> >> >> just downloading a torrent with the mp3's seems simpler
> >> >> than swapping cd's. :)
> >> >
> >> > Just beware, in my experience of this (for research purposes,
> >> > yes really!) many, if not most CD images in WAV or PCM format
> >> > are in fact decodes of MP3s, and many of these where low bitrate
> >> > MP3s which are nasty.
> >> >
> >> > personally I have moved away from compressed audio, not because
> >> > I distrust compression, but I like browsing through a pile of CDs
> >> > looking for somthing that matches my mood - for me the user interface
> >> > is better; perhaps its my age.
> >> >
> >> > -Steve
> >> >
> >>
> >
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2607 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Skip Tavakkolian]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 616 bytes --]

how much storage do 10,000 Maniacs take?



On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Conor Williams <conor.williams@gmail.com>wrote:

> just got 10,000 Maniacs from the library "Blind man's zoo" for free,
> ripped it to Mp3 and it only takes up about 60 MB... I have a nice 2
> computer network going about 100GB on each...
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:39 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>wrote:
>
>> On Mon Dec  9 17:14:07 EST 2013, conor.williams@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> > jees, i traded a bit of quality for space
>>
>> how little space / how much music do you have?
>>
>> - erik
>>
>>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1405 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Bruce Ellis]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 798 bytes --]

depends what you use to compressed them! i've seen megamachines...


On 10 December 2013 09:55, Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com>wrote:

> how much storage do 10,000 Maniacs take?
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Conor Williams <conor.williams@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> just got 10,000 Maniacs from the library "Blind man's zoo" for free,
>> ripped it to Mp3 and it only takes up about 60 MB... I have a nice 2
>> computer network going about 100GB on each...
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:39 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon Dec  9 17:14:07 EST 2013, conor.williams@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> > jees, i traded a bit of quality for space
>>>
>>> how little space / how much music do you have?
>>>
>>> - erik
>>>
>>>
>>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1902 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[erik quanstrom]

On Mon Dec  9 17:54:11 EST 2013, conor.williams@gmail.com wrote:

> FLAC seems huge (again) compared to Mp3 but I will try the Flac - according
> to:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/654057/alac-vs-flac
> there is good compression alright...

sure.  but that's not engineering.  engineering is balancing the cost
of a resource vs the benefit.  so we're trading storage against sound
quality.  storage is ~$15/GB, and sound quality is subjective.  so
it's up to the customer to determine where on this continuum the
solution should be.  but it does seem a tad rich to say that an extra
$10 or so of storage is extravagant  (assuming steve's 50% compression.)

- erik

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Conor Williams]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1298 bytes --]

 10,000 Maniac
+  Ozzy Ozbourne
--------
  10,001 Maniacs

Blind Man's Zoo-----------------MB
01 Eat for Two.mp3------------4.3MB
02 Please Forgive Us.mp3------3.9MB
03 The Big Parade.mp3---------4.8MB
04 Trouble Me.mp3-------------3.8MB
05 You Happy Puppet.mp3-------4.4MB
06 Headstrong.mp3-------------5.4MB
07 Poison in the Well.mp3-----3.9MB
08 Dust Bowl.mp3--------------5.3MB
09 The Lion's Share.mp3-------4.1MB
10 Hateful Hate.mp3-----------6.2MB
11 Jubilee.mp3----------------7.6MB
--------------------------------------- 53.7MBMB



On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:55 PM, Skip Tavakkolian <
skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> wrote:

> how much storage do 10,000 Maniacs take?
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Conor Williams <conor.williams@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> just got 10,000 Maniacs from the library "Blind man's zoo" for free,
>> ripped it to Mp3 and it only takes up about 60 MB... I have a nice 2
>> computer network going about 100GB on each...
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:39 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon Dec  9 17:14:07 EST 2013, conor.williams@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> > jees, i traded a bit of quality for space
>>>
>>> how little space / how much music do you have?
>>>
>>> - erik
>>>
>>>
>>
>

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 2619 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Picture 6.jpg --]
[-- Type: image/jpeg, Size: 183051 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Bruce Ellis]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1473 bytes --]

um. it was a joke...


On 10 December 2013 10:19, Conor Williams <conor.williams@gmail.com> wrote:

>  10,000 Maniac
> +  Ozzy Ozbourne
> --------
>   10,001 Maniacs
>
> Blind Man's Zoo-----------------MB
> 01 Eat for Two.mp3------------4.3MB
> 02 Please Forgive Us.mp3------3.9MB
> 03 The Big Parade.mp3---------4.8MB
> 04 Trouble Me.mp3-------------3.8MB
> 05 You Happy Puppet.mp3-------4.4MB
> 06 Headstrong.mp3-------------5.4MB
> 07 Poison in the Well.mp3-----3.9MB
> 08 Dust Bowl.mp3--------------5.3MB
> 09 The Lion's Share.mp3-------4.1MB
> 10 Hateful Hate.mp3-----------6.2MB
> 11 Jubilee.mp3----------------7.6MB
> --------------------------------------- 53.7MBMB
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:55 PM, Skip Tavakkolian <
> skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> how much storage do 10,000 Maniacs take?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Conor Williams <conor.williams@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> just got 10,000 Maniacs from the library "Blind man's zoo" for free,
>>> ripped it to Mp3 and it only takes up about 60 MB... I have a nice 2
>>> computer network going about 100GB on each...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:39 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon Dec  9 17:14:07 EST 2013, conor.williams@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > jees, i traded a bit of quality for space
>>>>
>>>> how little space / how much music do you have?
>>>>
>>>> - erik
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3039 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Jeff Sickel]

Since it was a joke, 808 STATE Plan 9:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv8BOkV4l8U


On Dec 9, 2013, at 5:25 PM, Bruce Ellis <bruce.ellis@gmail.com> wrote:

> um. it was a joke…

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Conor Williams]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 805 bytes --]

cool...


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 11:18 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>wrote:

> On Mon Dec  9 17:54:11 EST 2013, conor.williams@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > FLAC seems huge (again) compared to Mp3 but I will try the Flac -
> according
> > to:
> > http://www.head-fi.org/t/654057/alac-vs-flac
> > there is good compression alright...
>
> sure.  but that's not engineering.  engineering is balancing the cost
> of a resource vs the benefit.  so we're trading storage against sound
> quality.  storage is ~$15/GB, and sound quality is subjective.  so
> it's up to the customer to determine where on this continuum the
> solution should be.  but it does seem a tad rich to say that an extra
> $10 or so of storage is extravagant  (assuming steve's 50% compression.)
>
> - erik
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1362 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Matthew Veety]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 305 bytes --]

On Mon, 9 Dec 2013, Jeff Sickel wrote:

> Since it was a joke, 808 STATE Plan 9:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv8BOkV4l8U
>
>
> On Dec 9, 2013, at 5:25 PM, Bruce Ellis <bruce.ellis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> um. it was a joke…
>
>
>
>

Man, youtube really sucks in mothra.

--
Veety

Re: [9fans] music storage

[erik quanstrom]

> Just beware, in my experience of this (for research purposes,
> yes really!) many, if not most CD images in WAV or PCM format
> are in fact decodes of MP3s, and many of these where low bitrate
> MP3s which are nasty.
>
> personally I have moved away from compressed audio, not because
> I distrust compression, but I like browsing through a pile of CDs
> looking for somthing that matches my mood - for me the user interface
> is better; perhaps its my age.

i don't understand this claim.  all standard audio cds are in pcm format.

- erik

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Devon H. O'Dell]

2013/12/9 erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>:
>> Just beware, in my experience of this (for research purposes,
>> yes really!) many, if not most CD images in WAV or PCM format
>> are in fact decodes of MP3s, and many of these where low bitrate
>> MP3s which are nasty.
>>
>> personally I have moved away from compressed audio, not because
>> I distrust compression, but I like browsing through a pile of CDs
>> looking for somthing that matches my mood - for me the user interface
>> is better; perhaps its my age.
>
> i don't understand this claim.  all standard audio cds are in pcm format.

1) Audio was recorded to CD at factory.
2) Some guy ripped it and converted it to MP3.
3) Some guy got the MP3s and made redbook CD for their car.
4) Friend of guy borrows CD and rips lossless.
5) Lossless quality not lossless anymore.

That's what Steve's saying.

--dho

> - erik
>

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Lee Fallat]

He is saying that some people will use mp3 compression, then convert
to WAV/PCM. Maybe some artists record directly to mp3 then convert to
have them play on audio players.

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 7:20 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
>> Just beware, in my experience of this (for research purposes,
>> yes really!) many, if not most CD images in WAV or PCM format
>> are in fact decodes of MP3s, and many of these where low bitrate
>> MP3s which are nasty.
>>
>> personally I have moved away from compressed audio, not because
>> I distrust compression, but I like browsing through a pile of CDs
>> looking for somthing that matches my mood - for me the user interface
>> is better; perhaps its my age.
>
> i don't understand this claim.  all standard audio cds are in pcm format.
>
> - erik
>

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Steve Simon]

i don't understand this claim.  all standard audio cds are in pcm format.

I was not clear.

If you download wav or raw pcm files via bittorrent et al the tel-l-tail
signature of MP3 encoding can often be found. i.e the files which claim to be rips
directly from CDs are in fact decoded low bitrate MP3 files.

I would not claim that this is always the case, but in my experiments
(testing audio quality assurance software which is designed to
detect this kind of thing) I was surprised how common it is.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Steve Simon]

Sorry everyone,

I should have caught up with the thread before replying.
Its late and I should go to bed.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] music storage

[erik quanstrom]

> I was not clear.
>
> If you download wav or raw pcm files via bittorrent et al the tel-l-tail

that was the missing bit.  thanks!

- erik

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Bruce Ellis]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1012 bytes --]

Well there is some truth in all these emails. First let me say that no
recording studio records in mp3 and no studio software does unless you
really force it. Not even Garage Band - the baseline. (Note that I will
usually make a mp3 for my phone after a mix.)

That said the dudes compiling and selling CDs will grab the data in any
format and decode it and sell it.  Just 'cause you bought a CD doesn't mean
it was really uncompressed DDD. Certainly a worse story if you don't know
if it's pirated. How many CDs do you have with a hologram on them, Erik?

That said 9 out of 10 British housewives etc.

It is not too hard to tell and clearly Simon has the tools. I do. Just
checked out a suspect disk. Hmm profile is strongly correlated with 96kps.

brucee
On 10 Dec 2013 12:54, "erik quanstrom" <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:

> > I was not clear.
> >
> > If you download wav or raw pcm files via bittorrent et al the tel-l-tail
>
> that was the missing bit.  thanks!
>
> - erik
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1357 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[erik quanstrom]

On Mon Dec  9 21:23:18 EST 2013, bruce.ellis@gmail.com wrote:

> Well there is some truth in all these emails. First let me say that no
> recording studio records in mp3 and no studio software does unless you
> really force it. Not even Garage Band - the baseline. (Note that I will
> usually make a mp3 for my phone after a mix.)
>
> That said the dudes compiling and selling CDs will grab the data in any
> format and decode it and sell it.  Just 'cause you bought a CD doesn't mean
> it was really uncompressed DDD. Certainly a worse story if you don't know
> if it's pirated. How many CDs do you have with a hologram on them, Erik?

almost all my cds were bought first hand before 1998.  all
came with proper packaging, and silkscreening on the front side.

even so, as you point out, the quality does vary.  i find some remastered
AAD or ADD disks to be of good quality.  listening to muddy waters,
"folk singer" as i type.

> That said 9 out of 10 British housewives etc.
>
> It is not too hard to tell and clearly Simon has the tools. I do. Just
> checked out a suspect disk. Hmm profile is strongly correlated with 96kps.

very interesting.  time to do a little investigation.

- erik

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Bruce Ellis]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1453 bytes --]

good to hear. all of the major brands had holograms in 1998.

so the answer is?

brucee


On 10 December 2013 13:42, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:

> On Mon Dec  9 21:23:18 EST 2013, bruce.ellis@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Well there is some truth in all these emails. First let me say that no
> > recording studio records in mp3 and no studio software does unless you
> > really force it. Not even Garage Band - the baseline. (Note that I will
> > usually make a mp3 for my phone after a mix.)
> >
> > That said the dudes compiling and selling CDs will grab the data in any
> > format and decode it and sell it.  Just 'cause you bought a CD doesn't
> mean
> > it was really uncompressed DDD. Certainly a worse story if you don't know
> > if it's pirated. How many CDs do you have with a hologram on them, Erik?
>
> almost all my cds were bought first hand before 1998.  all
> came with proper packaging, and silkscreening on the front side.
>
> even so, as you point out, the quality does vary.  i find some remastered
> AAD or ADD disks to be of good quality.  listening to muddy waters,
> "folk singer" as i type.
>
> > That said 9 out of 10 British housewives etc.
> >
> > It is not too hard to tell and clearly Simon has the tools. I do. Just
> > checked out a suspect disk. Hmm profile is strongly correlated with
> 96kps.
>
> very interesting.  time to do a little investigation.
>
> - erik
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2064 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[andrey mirtchovski]

offtopic at this point, but anyways: I'm willing to bet that at least
a few pre-1998 cds from your collection were pirated copies from the
factory in Stara Zagora in Bulgaria our little "claim to fame" from
that period...

http://goo.gl/8odvm1

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Bruce Ellis]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 439 bytes --]

Maybe he's lucky. I have a swag of such disks and 80% are very fine pirates.

brucee


On 10 December 2013 14:26, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com> wrote:

> offtopic at this point, but anyways: I'm willing to bet that at least
> a few pre-1998 cds from your collection were pirated copies from the
> factory in Stara Zagora in Bulgaria our little "claim to fame" from
> that period...
>
> http://goo.gl/8odvm1
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 839 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[erik quanstrom]

On Mon Dec  9 22:15:18 EST 2013, bruce.ellis@gmail.com wrote:

> good to hear. all of the major brands had holograms in 1998.

proper packaging includes a hologram.  but clearly as andrey points out,
that's probablly not proof that they're not junk.

> Maybe he's lucky. I have a swag of such disks and 80% are very fine pirates.

so here's a question: was the pirating uniform?  that is, did top 100 cds
get pirated at the same rate as say the top 20000 - the top 100?

- erik

Re: [9fans] music storage

[andrey mirtchovski]

> so here's a question: was the pirating uniform?  that is, did top 100 cds
> get pirated at the same rate as say the top 20000 - the top 100?

i would say it was uniform -- all musical tastes were covered from
obscure heavy metal to django reinhardt. pre-1990 there was a glut for
any good quality music in the eastern bloc and people would buy and
listen to anything. for example there was really no difference between
the presentation of an official early album of the red hot chili
peppers and a bootleg of a 1988 concert in front of thousand people.
it all went, but i'm sure people brought more choice stuff to the
west.

from around 1986 onward people started pirating via huge casette-copy
farms which were lower quality and were mostly for local market
consumption, but once they figured out the big money was in CDs the
big guys bought entire shop catalogues from the west en masse and
brought them over for duplication. for all intents and purposes the
big factory from the link above was a government operation. kids my
age back then with a little bit of corel draw skills were put in
sweatshops to take care of the cover art and off it went. people
hopped on busses west or east 3-day vacations with sacks full of CDs.

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Bruce Ellis]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 806 bytes --]

no simple answer. unusual compilations are obvious. a lot of classic rock
CDs aren't real. i have a handel messiah that swaers its real but it's
about 128kbs at best and statistically 14 bit.

brucee


On 10 December 2013 14:39, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:

> On Mon Dec  9 22:15:18 EST 2013, bruce.ellis@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > good to hear. all of the major brands had holograms in 1998.
>
> proper packaging includes a hologram.  but clearly as andrey points out,
> that's probablly not proof that they're not junk.
>
> > Maybe he's lucky. I have a swag of such disks and 80% are very fine
> pirates.
>
> so here's a question: was the pirating uniform?  that is, did top 100 cds
> get pirated at the same rate as say the top 20000 - the top 100?
>
> - erik
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1331 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Nicolas Bercher]

On 10/12/2013 04:26, andrey mirtchovski wrote:
> offtopic at this point, but anyways: I'm willing to bet that at least
> a few pre-1998 cds from your collection were pirated copies from the
> factory in Stara Zagora in Bulgaria our little "claim to fame" from
> that period...

Ah ah, I've been in such store in Stara Zagora!
I purchased a few CDs at that time (2002) but Pink Floyd's
Ummagumma CDs got their printed surface swapped from each other!
There's really no respect to nothing regarding piracy.

I really loved & enjoyed Bulgaria by the way! ;-)

Nicolas

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Aram Hăvărneanu]

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 2:39 AM, Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:
> I would not claim that this is always the case, but in my experiments
> (testing audio quality assurance software which is designed to
> detect this kind of thing) I was surprised how common it is.

It's reasonably common with public trackers, it never happens on
private trackers dedicated to music (mostly because the standards of
quality are enforced and people actually look out for it).

-- 
Aram Hăvărneanu

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Conor Williams]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 613 bytes --]

bitorrent & torrents save me a ton of money... jees, i'd have to get a job
only for 'em



On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 6:46 AM, Jeff Sickel <jas@corpus-callosum.com>wrote:

> Without piracy, the economy would be in the doldrums.  Though that’s not
> quite the gist
> of Andrian Johns’ Piracy:
>
>         http://www.adrianjohns.com/piracy/
>
> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/05/adrian-johns-i-piracy-i-essential-history-lessons
>
>
> That said, today we have youtube.com where everyone can participate in
> copyright violation,
> just another term for piracy at the click of a button.
>
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1201 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Jeff Sickel]

Without piracy, the economy would be in the doldrums.  Though that’s not quite the gist
of Andrian Johns’ Piracy:

	http://www.adrianjohns.com/piracy/
		https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/05/adrian-johns-i-piracy-i-essential-history-lessons


That said, today we have youtube.com where everyone can participate in copyright violation,
just another term for piracy at the click of a button.

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Conor Williams]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 258 bytes --]

lol


On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 2:35 AM, Winston Kodogo <kodogo@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> how much storage do 10,000 Maniacs take?
>
> Eleven. Preferably not pronounced with a Scottish Accent:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAz_UvnUeuU
>
>
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 721 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] music storage

[Winston Kodogo]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 152 bytes --]

>> how much storage do 10,000 Maniacs take?

Eleven. Preferably not pronounced with a Scottish Accent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAz_UvnUeuU

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 304 bytes --]