* RE: [9fans] x10 [not found] <81132473206F3A46A72BD6116E1A06AE05617C@black.aprote.com> @ 2004-04-06 18:03 ` ron minnich 2004-04-06 18:17 ` Derek Fawcus ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2004-04-06 18:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Tue, 6 Apr 2004, Tiit Lankots wrote: > > Actually there's another reason to choose Linux last (other than > > Windows): the distributions I've seen are just a collection of ~1,000 > > Just for kicks, I checked the mozilla binary on my Slackware. On startup, > it has to drag in 29 (!) DLLs, some of which need other DLLs themselves. > 'Orrible. yeah, well, just watch date(1) resolve 213 symbols sometime. to print today's date. Including threaded posix libraries for dns. It's really amazing, after we just saw Linus argue on this list how important TLB fault minimization is, to see how inefficient so many things are on Linux. They are so microbenchmark-driven that they oft-times miss the big picture, I think. ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-06 18:03 ` [9fans] x10 ron minnich @ 2004-04-06 18:17 ` Derek Fawcus 2004-04-06 18:20 ` ron minnich 2004-04-06 18:18 ` boyd, rounin 2004-04-06 18:48 ` rog 2 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: Derek Fawcus @ 2004-04-06 18:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Tue, Apr 06, 2004 at 12:03:28PM -0600, ron minnich wrote: > > yeah, well, just watch date(1) resolve 213 symbols sometime. to print > today's date. Including threaded posix libraries for dns. Yeah it's a pain in the arse. I tend to compile things static these days - using a dietlibc. > It's really > amazing, after we just saw Linus argue on this list how important TLB > fault minimization is, to see how inefficient so many things are on Linux. > They are so microbenchmark-driven that they oft-times miss the big > picture, I think. I suspect a lot of people ignore the costs and delays being added to user mode... After severly hacking a RH install I got a more or less comfortable environment on my laptop, and a not unreasonable boot time - so I never suspend, just shutdown... but the laptop'll be replaced soon, so time to battle again - that'll be when plan9 gets a tryout on it. DF ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-06 18:17 ` Derek Fawcus @ 2004-04-06 18:20 ` ron minnich 2004-04-07 0:30 ` matt 0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2004-04-06 18:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Tue, 6 Apr 2004, Derek Fawcus wrote: > After severly hacking a RH install I got a more or less comfortable > environment on my laptop, and a not unreasonable boot time - so I never > suspend, just shutdown... but the laptop'll be replaced soon, so time to > battle again - that'll be when plan9 gets a tryout on it. two essential things Plan 9 lacks for laptops - sleep that works - hot plug devices (e.g. pcmcia, usb dongles, etc.) ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-06 18:20 ` ron minnich @ 2004-04-07 0:30 ` matt 0 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: matt @ 2004-04-07 0:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > two essential things Plan 9 lacks for laptops > - sleep that works > - hot plug devices (e.g. pcmcia, usb dongles, etc.) usb hotswapping works for me i just run usb/usbd again m ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-06 18:03 ` [9fans] x10 ron minnich 2004-04-06 18:17 ` Derek Fawcus @ 2004-04-06 18:18 ` boyd, rounin 2004-04-06 18:48 ` rog 2 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-04-06 18:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > yeah, well, just watch date(1) resolve 213 symbols sometime. to print > today's date. Including threaded posix libraries for dns. It's really > amazing, after we just saw Linus argue on this list how important TLB > fault minimization is, to see how inefficient so many things are on Linux. right. run strace on any given linux binary and watch the torrent of system calls before main() even gets called. it is truly appalling: ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* RE: [9fans] x10 2004-04-06 18:03 ` [9fans] x10 ron minnich 2004-04-06 18:17 ` Derek Fawcus 2004-04-06 18:18 ` boyd, rounin @ 2004-04-06 18:48 ` rog 2004-04-06 18:47 ` boyd, rounin 2004-04-06 20:46 ` Enache Adrian 2 siblings, 2 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: rog @ 2004-04-06 18:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > yeah, well, just watch date(1) resolve 213 symbols sometime. to print > today's date. it's funny, i was probably looking at the source to the plan 9 date command as you were writing that... it's perhaps an interesting example. i was looking back in the dump file system and wanted to know the exact modification times of some of the files there. ls changes its format for files older than 6 months, so: % cd /n/dump/2003/0916/usr/rog/limbo/schedule % ls -l scheduler.b --rw-r--r-- M 30 rog rog 10183 Sep 15 2003 scheduler.b % cat /dev/time 1081276575 1081276575299952521 8847783936768 305454592 % % fc 1081276575 6 30 24 60 60 x x x x - 1065724575 % ramfs % echo -n ' 1065724575 1065724575299952521 8847783936768 305454592' > /tmp/time % > /tmp/bintime; chmod 000 /tmp/bintime % bind -b /tmp /dev % date Thu Oct 9 19:36:15 BST 2003 % ls -l scheduler.b --rw-r--r-- M 30 rog rog 10183 Sep 15 22:07 scheduler.b % and there i was, back in time 6 months, and the files display their full timestamp as desired. how pleasant it is to be using a system where almost all resources are malleable, including time itself! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-06 18:48 ` rog @ 2004-04-06 18:47 ` boyd, rounin 2004-04-06 20:46 ` Enache Adrian 1 sibling, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-04-06 18:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > how pleasant it is to be using a system where almost all resources > are malleable, including time itself! nice one. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-06 18:48 ` rog 2004-04-06 18:47 ` boyd, rounin @ 2004-04-06 20:46 ` Enache Adrian 2004-04-06 23:56 ` Russ Cox 2004-04-07 13:20 ` Dave Lukes 1 sibling, 2 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: Enache Adrian @ 2004-04-06 20:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Tue, Apr 06, 2004 a.d., rog@vitanuova.com wrote: > % bind -b /tmp /dev That could be dangerous too. I'd like a rfork flag to prevent bind() altogether. Regards, Adi ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-06 20:46 ` Enache Adrian @ 2004-04-06 23:56 ` Russ Cox 2004-04-07 20:46 ` Enache Adrian 2004-04-07 13:20 ` Dave Lukes 1 sibling, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: Russ Cox @ 2004-04-06 23:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Enache Adrian wrote: > On Tue, Apr 06, 2004 a.d., rog@vitanuova.com wrote: > >>% bind -b /tmp /dev > > > That could be dangerous too. > I'd like a rfork flag to prevent bind() altogether. why? you can only hurt yourself. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-06 23:56 ` Russ Cox @ 2004-04-07 20:46 ` Enache Adrian 2004-04-07 21:11 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-04-08 8:54 ` lucio 0 siblings, 2 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: Enache Adrian @ 2004-04-07 20:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Tue, Apr 06, 2004 a.d., Russ Cox wrote: > Enache Adrian wrote: > >On Tue, Apr 06, 2004 a.d., rog@vitanuova.com wrote: > > > >>% bind -b /tmp /dev > > > >That could be dangerous too. > >I'd like a rfork flag to prevent bind() altogether. > > why? you can only hurt yourself. How can I enforce static namespace semantics upon a process ? Stop it from lying to its children about /dev/zero being /dev/random ? Or letting them happily fill up the disk when writing to /dev/null ? Regards, Adi ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-07 20:46 ` Enache Adrian @ 2004-04-07 21:11 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-04-08 20:19 ` Enache Adrian 2004-04-08 8:54 ` lucio 1 sibling, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: Geoff Collyer @ 2004-04-07 21:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans I don't think that these are actual security problems. Remember that Plan 9 doesn't have set-id, so if you fool one of your child processes, you can only hurt yourself. Why do you want to enforce a static namespace? Why would you bind /dev/random onto /dev/zero and why would you consider it a security problem if you did? Likewise for binding an ordinary file onto /dev/null. Plan 9, like Unix, will let you shoot yourself in the foot if that makes you happy. But shooting yourself in the foot is not a security problem. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-07 21:11 ` Geoff Collyer @ 2004-04-08 20:19 ` Enache Adrian 2004-04-08 20:27 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-04-08 20:29 ` Russ Cox 0 siblings, 2 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: Enache Adrian @ 2004-04-08 20:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 a.d., Geoff Collyer wrote: > Why would you bind /dev/random onto /dev/zero and why would you > consider it a security problem if you did? Likewise for binding an > ordinary file onto /dev/null. What's wrong with enforcing upon a process truerand() returning random numbers and not zero every time ? bind() may dramatically change the meaning of any file operation on Plan 9 - and is itself not constrained by file permissions, etc. Sometimes one may want to turn such a powerful feature off :-) And generally, being able to control with rfork() flags the couple of things Plan 9 still do without reading or writing files seemed to me like a not completely ireasonable idea. Of course, that may not be as useful as I first thought. Regards, Adi ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-08 20:19 ` Enache Adrian @ 2004-04-08 20:27 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-04-08 20:29 ` Russ Cox 1 sibling, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: Geoff Collyer @ 2004-04-08 20:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans If you want to make sure that you're getting the real /dev/random, unmount /dev/random (but not /dev) first, or bind -b '#c' /dev again. I don't think anybody has been persuaded yet that it's worth expending the effort and increasing the kernel's complexity to restrict bind with rfork flags. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-08 20:19 ` Enache Adrian 2004-04-08 20:27 ` Geoff Collyer @ 2004-04-08 20:29 ` Russ Cox 2004-04-08 20:42 ` rog 2004-04-08 22:09 ` Charles Forsyth 1 sibling, 2 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: Russ Cox @ 2004-04-08 20:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > What's wrong with enforcing upon a process truerand() returning > random numbers and not zero every time ? If you start the process yourself, then you'll know that /dev/random is okay, assuming you're not shooting yourself in the foot on purpose. If you start an untrusted program and then have it start the process, all bets are off, as you have observed. But if you're letting an untrusted program start some other program, you have other things to worry about -- like the untrusted program might edit the binary to remove all the calls to truerand() before executing it. Or might just not run the binary and run its own entirely different version. There's no sense in trying to lock down this one thing. The solution is not to rely on untrusted programs to do your work for you. Russ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-08 20:29 ` Russ Cox @ 2004-04-08 20:42 ` rog 2004-04-08 22:09 ` Charles Forsyth 1 sibling, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: rog @ 2004-04-08 20:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans the reason this is a problem in unix is the setuid bit. various setuid programs expect to see files (e.g./etc/passwd) in their expected place. if you can replace 'em, you can break the system. hence chroot is a superuser-only system call. if you don't have setuid programs, it's not a problem. as far as i can see, this was one of the major "too deep to fix" problems with unix. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-08 20:29 ` Russ Cox 2004-04-08 20:42 ` rog @ 2004-04-08 22:09 ` Charles Forsyth 2004-04-08 23:52 ` Bruce Ellis 1 sibling, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: Charles Forsyth @ 2004-04-08 22:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans >>about -- like the untrusted program might edit the binary to remove >>all the calls to truerand() before executing it. for instance, and more easily, by dynamically substituting an unexpected libc-2.74.5.beta-9 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-08 22:09 ` Charles Forsyth @ 2004-04-08 23:52 ` Bruce Ellis 0 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: Bruce Ellis @ 2004-04-08 23:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans do they have glibc swap meetings there? i hear they are popular with the pre-teens in japan. brucee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Forsyth" <forsyth@terzarima.net> To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 8:09 AM Subject: Re: [9fans] x10 > >>about -- like the untrusted program might edit the binary to remove > >>all the calls to truerand() before executing it. > > for instance, and more easily, by dynamically substituting an unexpected libc-2.74.5.beta-9 > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-07 20:46 ` Enache Adrian 2004-04-07 21:11 ` Geoff Collyer @ 2004-04-08 8:54 ` lucio 1 sibling, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: lucio @ 2004-04-08 8:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > How can I enforce static namespace semantics upon a process ? > Stop it from lying to its children about /dev/zero being /dev/random ? > Or letting them happily fill up the disk when writing to /dev/null ? By changing #/, of course. Just mount whatever root server you see fit. ++L ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-06 20:46 ` Enache Adrian 2004-04-06 23:56 ` Russ Cox @ 2004-04-07 13:20 ` Dave Lukes 2004-04-07 13:41 ` matt 1 sibling, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: Dave Lukes @ 2004-04-07 13:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > That could be dangerous too. How? > I'd like a rfork flag to prevent bind() altogether. Why? Dave. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-07 13:20 ` Dave Lukes @ 2004-04-07 13:41 ` matt 0 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: matt @ 2004-04-07 13:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans >> I'd like a rfork flag to prevent bind() altogether. > Why? if someone supplies you a binary you could fork a shell without binding, clear the namespace and run the supplied binary. Like chroot & jailing it However, preventing binds altogether seems a bit strange if you fork with RFNOMNT If set, subsequent mounts into the new name space and dereferencing of pathnames starting with # are disallowed. and RFCNAMEG If set, the new process starts with a clean name space. A new name space must be built from a mount of an open file descriptor. Is mutually exclusive with RFNAMEG. what can you lose from allowing the binary from manipulating it's own namespace? m ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
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* Re: [9fans] x10 [not found] ` <9d7ff25cc1cb8a187ec626f4ccfe804d@collyer.net> @ 2004-04-07 4:58 ` Kenji Okamoto 2004-04-07 7:11 ` Martin C.Atkins 2004-04-08 2:13 ` Joel Salomon 2 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: Kenji Okamoto @ 2004-04-07 4:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Thank you, geoff. In a short word, my argument is that we should pay more respects to those who are sharing their own time to others. Of course, I know we can employ more people with high quality if more money. This is true everywhere professional works are concerned though. It's easy to say that quality of some free software are bad from the view point of skilled professionals. However, we must remind that the programmer who are working without pay are shareing their own time, not full-time of them, which is same to us after Plan 9 became to a free software. As you know the quality of Plan 9 itself is now going down, if we cpmpare it with ,say, Release 2 or 3. I think this is very natural, because we have now no full-time programmer of Plan 9. Being said above, I still love Plan 9 because of its beatiful design and codes, very easy to understand and to read! I feel Plan 9 has her own future, if we could continue to develope its philosophy. The problem is how we can get more programmer even though we cannot pay them money in a future. I think Linux people may have a solution or at least trying to get it with struggling. >So my > preferences in code would be, in order of decreasing desirability: > Plan 9, Research Unix, OpenBSD (they at least try to pay attention to > security issues), *BSD, Linux, full stop. My preference is only Plan 9, because I don't know Research Unix.☺ > Actually there's another reason to choose Linux last (other than > Windows): I chose Linux because it's the best spread lunix, and I can use it as my own base for working (actually, I may not need sources of it, because it's just a running base for applications to me). From this view point, I doubt there is any value to pay attention to other Unices, because we have Plan 9. > I don't know if that answers your questions, Kenji. You did, geoff. Kenji ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 [not found] ` <9d7ff25cc1cb8a187ec626f4ccfe804d@collyer.net> 2004-04-07 4:58 ` Kenji Okamoto @ 2004-04-07 7:11 ` Martin C.Atkins 2004-04-07 7:30 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-04-08 2:13 ` Joel Salomon 2 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: Martin C.Atkins @ 2004-04-07 7:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Tue, 6 Apr 2004 00:11:23 -0700 Geoff Collyer <geoff@collyer.net> wrote: >... Lots of stuff I agree with... > Actually there's another reason to choose Linux last (other than > Windows): the distributions I've seen are just a collection of ~1,000 > packages and, if they even come with sources, you hope you can compile > them all, but they demand different prerequisite library versions > (often for little or no reason), some of which are incompatible and > can't co-exist, so it becomes a major pain to construct a consistent > source tree, for which you have running binaries, and which you could > recompile all (or part) of. The BSDs at least are integrated systems, > maintained as systems, not packages, so they come with self-consistent > sources, and you can compile them. For programs that aren't part of > the core system (``ports''), they let `make' figure out the > dependencies (novel!) and drag in the necessary prerequisites and they > usually build (occasionally the gratuitous overspecificity of version > numbers bites one in the ass; it's a real problem in the BSD/Linux > world). This is also mostly true, but having used Debian Linux for several years now, I can claim with some non-trivial experience that Debian is the counter example (that proves the rule? :-). Debian linux, like the BSDs also tries to release a 'system', not just a collection of packages. That is why the Debian release cycle is so long, and why the 'latest and greatest' version is always rather out of date! I apt-get modules daily (or at least, weekly), and have never had one program/library break another, or any of the usual library-version hell. Of course, if you step outside the packages in the stable system, then things can get a little more complicated, but that is your choice, and usually the package system still sorts things out with very minimal hassle. >.. > If you're bored and have an afternoon, a fast machine, a broadband > connection and ~10GBs of disk to kill, ask FreeBSD to build `gnucash': > it drags in code and compiles and drags and compiles, but the best >... Just last week I apt-getted a reasonably recent version of gnucash, and that was all there was to it. Nothing broke, all the dependencies were automatically updated, etc. etc. No scheme-version hell, either. (It's just a pity that the up-to-date manual hadn't also been packaged, but that only took a few minutes to fix). The number of times you see instructions for the installation of packages on RPM-based systems include the direction to "turn off package version compatibility checking" is truly scary! I'm not even sure if apt has such an option! > And of course there are the people who insist on programming in > (shudder) Perl. Lordy, lordy, lordy. One is reminded of Phil Wadler > on XML (see /sys/games/lib/fortunes): it's not a language (at least in > the sense of having a finite or at least well-defined grammar, or at > least a grammar!, and some attempt at having a minimal, non-redundant, > orthogonal set of constructs that cover the application space of > interest), it's not a sharp tool but rather a swiss-army > gasoline-powered chainsaw, and it's not particularly good for doing > anything. Sorry; I'm allergic to Perl. Agreed! Agreed!!!! Martin -- Martin C. Atkins martin@parvat.com Parvat Infotech Private Limited http://www.parvat.com{/,/martin} ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-07 7:11 ` Martin C.Atkins @ 2004-04-07 7:30 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-04-07 8:13 ` Martin C.Atkins 0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: Geoff Collyer @ 2004-04-07 7:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Ah! Now I understand why the users of Debian Linux are fanatical about it. I'd never heard a convincing explanation before but this makes a lot of sense. Should I ever have occasion to install Linux again, I'll give it a try. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-07 7:30 ` Geoff Collyer @ 2004-04-07 8:13 ` Martin C.Atkins 2004-04-07 13:28 ` boyd, rounin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: Martin C.Atkins @ 2004-04-07 8:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 00:30:14 -0700 Geoff Collyer <geoff@collyer.net> wrote: > Ah! Now I understand why the users of Debian Linux are fanatical about > it. I'd never heard a convincing explanation before but this makes a > lot of sense. Should I ever have occasion to install Linux again, > I'll give it a try. I'm just hoping they can maintain the record, given that the woody->sarge update will see the number of packages go from 3000 -> 10,000 (numbers off the top of my head, but you get the general idea!). Martin PS Yam, apt for rpms, etc are trying to add the fundamental mechanisms to other distributions, but without the (correct!) dependency meta-data in the packages, that's all just pointless window-dressing. The meta-data takes real effort by *all* the package maintainers, and that's not so easy to retro-fit! -- Martin C. Atkins martin@parvat.com Parvat Infotech Private Limited http://www.parvat.com{/,/martin} ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-07 8:13 ` Martin C.Atkins @ 2004-04-07 13:28 ` boyd, rounin 2004-04-07 15:29 ` a 0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-04-07 13:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans debian do have a slow release cycle, which is a good thing. however, i have seen sloppy apt-get's smashing things into an unusable state. this shows that there is something fundementally wrong with this whole 'pull it across the net' philosophy and this is before we get into security issues. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-07 13:28 ` boyd, rounin @ 2004-04-07 15:29 ` a 0 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: a @ 2004-04-07 15:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans // however, i have seen sloppy apt-get's smashing things into // an unusable state. this shows that there is something // fundementally wrong with this whole 'pull it across // the net' philosophy and this is before we get into // security issues. no, i don't think it does. regardless of what model you use, package maintainers can always make mistakes, and there are always security questions. the fact that the specific apt-get implementation of the 'pull it across the net' model is flawed (but still pretty good) just means that apt-get needs fixing. how to do that without having dumps or snapshots is left as an exercise for the reader. ;-) the first time i cd'd into the BSD ports tree and did a make that automatically pulled things over the net i was totally blown away. even if i did have to go to dinner while the package downloaded over my 14.4K modem. :-) ア ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 [not found] ` <9d7ff25cc1cb8a187ec626f4ccfe804d@collyer.net> 2004-04-07 4:58 ` Kenji Okamoto 2004-04-07 7:11 ` Martin C.Atkins @ 2004-04-08 2:13 ` Joel Salomon 2 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: Joel Salomon @ 2004-04-08 2:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Geoff Collyer said: > Actually there's another reason to choose Linux last (other than > Windows): the distributions I've seen are just a collection of ~1,000 > packages and, if they even come with sources, you hope you can compile > them all, but they demand different prerequisite library versions > (often for little or no reason), some of which are incompatible and > can't co-exist, so it becomes a major pain to construct a consistent > source tree, for which you have running binaries, and which you could > recompile all (or part) of. The BSDs at least are integrated systems, > maintained as systems, not packages, so they come with self-consistent > sources, and you can compile them. For programs that aren't part of > the core system (``ports''), they let `make' figure out the > dependencies (novel!) and drag in the necessary prerequisites and they > usually build (occasionally the gratuitous overspecificity of version > numbers bites one in the ass; it's a real problem in the BSD/Linux > world). Then there's gentoo ( http://www.gentoo.org/ ) -- Linux with a ports-like system attached. I haven't the bandwidth to use it myself, but someone at cooper I introduced it too uses it on his home network and loves it. He VNC'd to his computer from school (shades of plan9) to show me an 'emerge sync' in progress. Couldn't get him hooked on plan9, though... --Joel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
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* Re: [9fans] x10 [not found] ` <7ff77f951d0798f7e9b3695ccbb25275@9netics.com> @ 2004-04-07 8:07 ` Martin C.Atkins 2004-04-07 8:19 ` Geoff Collyer [not found] ` <f4203830f3fae14acea75d36b5f357ee@9srv.net> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: Martin C.Atkins @ 2004-04-07 8:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Tue, 6 Apr 2004 03:41:40 -0700 9nut@9netics.com wrote: > By definition very few have seen the closed ones, and can't really > talk about it. Five will get you ten that Windows XP source is orders > of magnitude messier that Linux. Yes. I'd place odds too! A related issue: I read somewhere that the source code for accessing outlook .pst mail boxes has been completely lost. All that now exists is various .dll libraries that can't be re-built! Martin -- Martin C. Atkins martin@parvat.com Parvat Infotech Private Limited http://www.parvat.com{/,/martin} ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-07 8:07 ` Martin C.Atkins @ 2004-04-07 8:19 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-04-07 10:16 ` 9nut 2004-04-07 13:36 ` boyd, rounin 0 siblings, 2 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: Geoff Collyer @ 2004-04-07 8:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Sounds like there's a business opportunity to sell Microsoft some Ken file servers with optical jukeboxes or fossil/venti servers with RAID disks. Maybe a few CD-RW and DVD-RAM drives too. Or maybe they just can't *find* the sources. A business opportunity for Google. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-07 8:19 ` Geoff Collyer @ 2004-04-07 10:16 ` 9nut 2004-04-07 13:39 ` boyd, rounin 2004-04-07 13:36 ` boyd, rounin 1 sibling, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: 9nut @ 2004-04-07 10:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Sounds like there's a business opportunity to sell Microsoft some Ken > file servers with optical jukeboxes or fossil/venti servers with RAID > disks. Maybe a few CD-RW and DVD-RAM drives too. > > Or maybe they just can't *find* the sources. A business opportunity > for Google. I was going to say that maybe finding sources to dll's they can't rebuild would be a good test case for their (new to them) search engine. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-07 10:16 ` 9nut @ 2004-04-07 13:39 ` boyd, rounin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-04-07 13:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I was going to say that maybe finding sources to dll's they can't rebuild > would be a good test case for their (new to them) search engine. maybe they've lost the expertice needed to code them. a windoze DLL is a scary thing and it's even worse when you have to code one. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-07 8:19 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-04-07 10:16 ` 9nut @ 2004-04-07 13:36 ` boyd, rounin 2004-04-08 4:38 ` Martin C.Atkins 1 sibling, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-04-07 13:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > ... or fossil/venti servers with RAID disks. i had this conversation with a mate of mine the other week. RAID controllers are expensive, overly complex and prone to failure. i didn't agree 'cos i'd seen one that didn't fail. however i was compelled by his logic that the controller i was using [Digital Storageworks] expensive and probably over complex. we agreed that mirroring is simpler, less error prone and now that disks are cheap going to RAID5 is a complete waste when it can be trivially replaced with mirroring. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-07 13:36 ` boyd, rounin @ 2004-04-08 4:38 ` Martin C.Atkins 2004-04-08 4:45 ` Geoff Collyer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: Martin C.Atkins @ 2004-04-08 4:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 15:36:04 +0200 "boyd, rounin" <boyd@insultant.net> wrote: > > ... or fossil/venti servers with RAID disks. > > i had this conversation with a mate of mine the other week. >... > we agreed that mirroring is simpler, less error prone and > now that disks are cheap going to RAID5 is a complete > waste when it can be trivially replaced with mirroring. This link, from the thread "Rob makes Dave Farbers 'vanity publishing' list": http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200404/msg00066.html also makes the argument that in a very big deployment - they have 100,000 servers, each with 2 disks (yes, I counted the zeros!) - RAID doesn't make much sense. I was convinced. Martin -- Martin C. Atkins martin@parvat.com Parvat Infotech Private Limited http://www.parvat.com{/,/martin} ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-08 4:38 ` Martin C.Atkins @ 2004-04-08 4:45 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-04-08 7:04 ` Martin C.Atkins 0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: Geoff Collyer @ 2004-04-08 4:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans By `RAID', I just meant any form of redundancy so that data can be recovered on-line when a disk blows. I wasn't advocating any particular RAID level. The mirror device in Ken fs, for example, is just fine. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-08 4:45 ` Geoff Collyer @ 2004-04-08 7:04 ` Martin C.Atkins 2004-04-08 7:17 ` Geoff Collyer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: Martin C.Atkins @ 2004-04-08 7:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 21:45:34 -0700 Geoff Collyer <geoff@collyer.net> wrote: > By `RAID', I just meant any form of redundancy so that data can be > recovered on-line when a disk blows. I wasn't advocating any > particular RAID level. The mirror device in Ken fs, for example, is > just fine. > Yes. I guess within the original meaning of the acronym, Google's scheme certainly counts - rather nicely! Martin -- Martin C. Atkins martin@parvat.com Parvat Infotech Private Limited http://www.parvat.com{/,/martin} ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-08 7:04 ` Martin C.Atkins @ 2004-04-08 7:17 ` Geoff Collyer 0 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: Geoff Collyer @ 2004-04-08 7:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans I hadn't considered that angle, I just meant that perhaps Microsoft are so disorganised that they need a search engine to find their lost source code. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <f4203830f3fae14acea75d36b5f357ee@9srv.net>]
* Re: [9fans] x10 [not found] ` <f4203830f3fae14acea75d36b5f357ee@9srv.net> @ 2004-04-08 2:20 ` Joel Salomon 2004-04-08 12:26 ` Brantley Coile 0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: Joel Salomon @ 2004-04-08 2:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans a@9srv.net said: > > If every human being through the ages did that, [hid knowledge] > > we'd all still be reinventing the wheel and throwing rocks. > > only in the absolute. allowing inventors to profit from their work > also encourages future invention. there's a balance to be struck. > current laws in the US involving generic drugs are one (very > imperfect) example. original, pre-Disney copyright is another. > 㢠> OTOH, patent law *does* require that the particulars of the invention be released. You just can't *use* it w/o permission. --Joel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-08 2:20 ` Joel Salomon @ 2004-04-08 12:26 ` Brantley Coile 2004-04-08 13:06 ` matt 0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: Brantley Coile @ 2004-04-08 12:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > a@9srv.net said: >> > If every human being through the ages did that, [hid knowledge] >> > we'd all still be reinventing the wheel and throwing rocks. >> >> only in the absolute. allowing inventors to profit from their work >> also encourages future invention. there's a balance to be struck. >> current laws in the US involving generic drugs are one (very >> imperfect) example. original, pre-Disney copyright is another. >> 㢠>> > > OTOH, patent law *does* require that the particulars of the invention be > released. You just can't *use* it w/o permission. And that is the crux of the matter. You invent to do stuff help create a product and sell it. We (society) will give you a monopoly on it for a very limited time if you tell us how you do it. We will stand on your shoulders and do new stuff based on what you have told us. Also, in 17 years we get to make more of them. The original concept of the Patent was invented in England to encourage Englishmen to figure out how the French were doing all the fancy stuff they were doing in textiles. Without doubt, if no patents, no Thomas Edison. No Thomas Edison, no power outlet. No power outlet, all the computers would have to run off kerosine. : ) Brantley ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-08 12:26 ` Brantley Coile @ 2004-04-08 13:06 ` matt 2004-04-08 13:27 ` Brantley Coile ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: matt @ 2004-04-08 13:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans "If Mr Edison thought a bit more, he wouldn't have to sweat so much." No Mr Tesla, no AC power distribution m ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-08 13:06 ` matt @ 2004-04-08 13:27 ` Brantley Coile 2004-04-08 13:28 ` Brantley Coile ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: Brantley Coile @ 2004-04-08 13:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > "If Mr Edison thought a bit more, he wouldn't have to sweat so much." > > No Mr Tesla, no AC power distribution Al fired Tesla. Tesla never fired Al. : ) (My inventor can beat up your inventor!!) : ) PS. Besides, West Orange is close to Murry Hill. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-08 13:06 ` matt 2004-04-08 13:27 ` Brantley Coile @ 2004-04-08 13:28 ` Brantley Coile 2004-04-08 21:24 ` boyd, rounin 2004-04-08 13:31 ` Brantley Coile 2004-04-08 21:22 ` boyd, rounin 3 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: Brantley Coile @ 2004-04-08 13:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > "If Mr Edison thought a bit more, he wouldn't have to sweat so much." > > No Mr Tesla, no AC power distribution Al fired Tesla. Tesla never fired Al. : ) (My inventor can beat up your inventor!!) : ) PS. Besides, West Orange is close to Murry Hill. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-08 13:28 ` Brantley Coile @ 2004-04-08 21:24 ` boyd, rounin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-04-08 21:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > PS. Besides, West Orange is close to Murry Hill. hoboken train, waz the closin' doors. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-08 13:06 ` matt 2004-04-08 13:27 ` Brantley Coile 2004-04-08 13:28 ` Brantley Coile @ 2004-04-08 13:31 ` Brantley Coile 2004-04-08 21:22 ` boyd, rounin 3 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: Brantley Coile @ 2004-04-08 13:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans It's just too easy to hit that Post tag on acme! Sorry for the double post. Did you notice that acme has the same letters as emacs? I guess I'm just dense and never noticed this before. Missing the s though. Of course who would want to use an editor named sacme. ... or scame for that matter. Brantley ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-08 13:06 ` matt ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2004-04-08 13:31 ` Brantley Coile @ 2004-04-08 21:22 ` boyd, rounin 3 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-04-08 21:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > No Mr Tesla, no AC power distribution AC is good. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <79b487c902aaae69762c013d51fe580c@juice.thebigchoice.com>]
* Re: [9fans] x10 [not found] <79b487c902aaae69762c013d51fe580c@juice.thebigchoice.com> @ 2004-04-06 12:53 ` a 0 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: a @ 2004-04-06 12:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans // Just look at the world of Windows. Where is all the // BSD licensed Windows software? um, there's not exactly a *ton* of GPL code for Win32, either. some, sure, but the dearth of both is due, i believe, do the nature of the underlying system. // With no GPL I'm willing to bet that plan9 would not have gone open source... while i'm not willing to take that bet, i'm not backing it, either. several of the labs folks have been fighting with lawyers to get as much out the door as possible for years before the GPL was the force it is today. and i believe the shift in the lawyers ability to listen is due more to changes in the world at large than to the GPL (although it likely helped). that said, you point is probably valid: it's certainly been the case with various hardware manufacturers that produce drivers for linux that wouldn't otherwise be likely to give out the info. anyway, i'm not looking to put down the GPL. it's fine for what it is and what it does. it's actually *especially* useful for companies producing their own code, all FUD aside. what strikes me as "bad" is the idea that the GPL has a moral advantage over BSD/MIT licenses. anyway, tangential references to plan9 aside, this has gone fairly far off topic. whatever license you like is fine: if i don't like it, i simply won't use your stuff. there's always a choice. ア ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* [9fans] x10 @ 2004-04-01 8:45 Fco.J.Ballesteros 2004-04-01 13:50 ` Dave Lukes 0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: Fco.J.Ballesteros @ 2004-04-01 8:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans I've pushed to sources a program called lights, that is a gui for the x10 file system. It can be used to see the status of lights/sensors and to change them by using the mouse. The file system (cm11 driver) has some bugs fixed too. hth ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-01 8:45 Fco.J.Ballesteros @ 2004-04-01 13:50 ` Dave Lukes 2004-04-01 14:32 ` boyd, rounin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: Dave Lukes @ 2004-04-01 13:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Damn! All I need is a place to live, a load of X10 stuff and a plan9 system and I can really start to have some fun:-~. Dave. On Thu, 2004-04-01 at 09:45, Fco.J.Ballesteros wrote: > I've pushed to sources a program called lights, > that is a gui for the x10 file system. It can be used to > see the status of lights/sensors and to change them by > using the mouse. > > The file system (cm11 driver) has some bugs fixed too. > > hth > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-01 13:50 ` Dave Lukes @ 2004-04-01 14:32 ` boyd, rounin 2004-04-05 5:32 ` Kenji Okamoto 0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-04-01 14:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > All I need is a place to live, a load of X10 stuff and a plan9 > system and I can really start to have some fun:-~. all i need is a large amount of money [150k EUR] and then ... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-01 14:32 ` boyd, rounin @ 2004-04-05 5:32 ` Kenji Okamoto 2004-04-05 9:46 ` boyd, rounin 2004-04-05 15:32 ` a 0 siblings, 2 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: Kenji Okamoto @ 2004-04-05 5:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > all i need is a large amount of money [150k EUR] and then ... By the way, it seems that the free software movement may have shifted to Europe these days. I got region 1 "Gangs of New york", and had to setup my Linux box to enjoy it. The ogle movie free software is from se domain... What is happening in US these days. Kenji ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-05 5:32 ` Kenji Okamoto @ 2004-04-05 9:46 ` boyd, rounin 2004-04-05 15:32 ` a 1 sibling, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: boyd, rounin @ 2004-04-05 9:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > The ogle movie free software is from se domain... under .se law that is 'fair use' [copy whatever you like, but don't use it for a commercial purpose]. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] x10 2004-04-05 5:32 ` Kenji Okamoto 2004-04-05 9:46 ` boyd, rounin @ 2004-04-05 15:32 ` a 1 sibling, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread From: a @ 2004-04-05 15:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans // ...it seems that the free software movement may have shifted to // Europe these days. ...What is happening in US these days. all americans are either cowering in their duct-tape-sealed homes or have left the country. besides, only terrorists use free software. (yes, it's meant to be a joke, although i wish it was farther from reality. bah.) also: bomb, terror, semtex, NSA, congres. hello eschelon, carnivore! ア ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2004-04-08 23:52 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 51+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <81132473206F3A46A72BD6116E1A06AE05617C@black.aprote.com> 2004-04-06 18:03 ` [9fans] x10 ron minnich 2004-04-06 18:17 ` Derek Fawcus 2004-04-06 18:20 ` ron minnich 2004-04-07 0:30 ` matt 2004-04-06 18:18 ` boyd, rounin 2004-04-06 18:48 ` rog 2004-04-06 18:47 ` boyd, rounin 2004-04-06 20:46 ` Enache Adrian 2004-04-06 23:56 ` Russ Cox 2004-04-07 20:46 ` Enache Adrian 2004-04-07 21:11 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-04-08 20:19 ` Enache Adrian 2004-04-08 20:27 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-04-08 20:29 ` Russ Cox 2004-04-08 20:42 ` rog 2004-04-08 22:09 ` Charles Forsyth 2004-04-08 23:52 ` Bruce Ellis 2004-04-08 8:54 ` lucio 2004-04-07 13:20 ` Dave Lukes 2004-04-07 13:41 ` matt [not found] <d9edb6c9f24b0e7f0d49a11389dcf4e4@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> [not found] ` <9d7ff25cc1cb8a187ec626f4ccfe804d@collyer.net> 2004-04-07 4:58 ` Kenji Okamoto 2004-04-07 7:11 ` Martin C.Atkins 2004-04-07 7:30 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-04-07 8:13 ` Martin C.Atkins 2004-04-07 13:28 ` boyd, rounin 2004-04-07 15:29 ` a 2004-04-08 2:13 ` Joel Salomon [not found] <dd6cffdbd632256d61274934f107e4be@9srv.net> [not found] ` <7ff77f951d0798f7e9b3695ccbb25275@9netics.com> 2004-04-07 8:07 ` Martin C.Atkins 2004-04-07 8:19 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-04-07 10:16 ` 9nut 2004-04-07 13:39 ` boyd, rounin 2004-04-07 13:36 ` boyd, rounin 2004-04-08 4:38 ` Martin C.Atkins 2004-04-08 4:45 ` Geoff Collyer 2004-04-08 7:04 ` Martin C.Atkins 2004-04-08 7:17 ` Geoff Collyer [not found] ` <f4203830f3fae14acea75d36b5f357ee@9srv.net> 2004-04-08 2:20 ` Joel Salomon 2004-04-08 12:26 ` Brantley Coile 2004-04-08 13:06 ` matt 2004-04-08 13:27 ` Brantley Coile 2004-04-08 13:28 ` Brantley Coile 2004-04-08 21:24 ` boyd, rounin 2004-04-08 13:31 ` Brantley Coile 2004-04-08 21:22 ` boyd, rounin [not found] <79b487c902aaae69762c013d51fe580c@juice.thebigchoice.com> 2004-04-06 12:53 ` a 2004-04-01 8:45 Fco.J.Ballesteros 2004-04-01 13:50 ` Dave Lukes 2004-04-01 14:32 ` boyd, rounin 2004-04-05 5:32 ` Kenji Okamoto 2004-04-05 9:46 ` boyd, rounin 2004-04-05 15:32 ` a
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