Re: [9fans] killing processes

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Fco. J. Ballesteros]

These CPU servers you use to drawterm into,
are shared with other users? Or do you own the machine?

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Axel Belinfante]

> These CPU servers you use to drawterm into,
> are shared with other users? Or do you own the machine?

I'm essentially the only user,
(there may be others but we do not have that many 9 fans here)
but not hostowner.

Axel.

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[andrey mirtchovski]

> These CPU servers you use to drawterm into,
> are shared with other users? Or do you own the machine?

i own the machine but it is shared with other users.  it's hidden in a
server room at ucalgary and has been up for three months.

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Ronald G Minnich]

jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
> On Thu Sep 15 11:40:59 EDT 2005, rminnich@lanl.gov wrote:
> 
>>...
>>Meant to be shared, by lots of folks, hence that ' ... big boys' comment 
>>in the startup code, reserving more kernel memory since there would be 
>>more users on a cpu than on a terminal.
>>
>>life has changed.
>>
>>ron
> 
> 
> Actually, that code RESTRICTS the amount of kernel memory on a machine
> that has lots of physical memory if it is being used as a cpu server.
> 
> --jim
> 

ah, then, I misread it. OOPS.

ron

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Steve Simon]

> blackdog is the xlininx v2p. I talked to one of the engineers -- he 
> visited here. They are not averse to the idea of Plan 9.

We are planning to use the PowerPCs in Virtex 2Pros at work soon,
I would be interested in any progress on that front. I may well be
involved in the port of our internal OS to the v2p which should help.

I have no idea of timescales of course...

-Steve

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Bruce Ellis]

ozinferno is not plan9 and they are diverging rapidly.  once the drivers
were interchangeable.  i'll try and release something soon if i can
find the appropriate spare cycles.  an auth server on a $40 router
is not out of the question.

BTW qantas uses $100 pcs from china running inferno for their airport displays.

and if ou can't find a auth server compliant throw-out on the street
then you live in the wrong suburb.  i found three this week.

brucee

On 9/16/05, Uriel <uriell@binarydream.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2005 at 09:34:39AM -0400, erik quanstrom wrote:
> > you know, i was thinking the linux folks have hacked those linksys
> > wireless routers. now that would be an excellent auth server. ;-)
> Rumor has it that those things run great with OzInferno, now if we
> could only convince Brucee to to release it... ;)
> 
> This days they are dirty cheap, either from ebay or new, when mechiel
> was working here we had this idea to build a mini-inferno-cluster out of
> a dozen of those things... but then Dell delayed the OzInferno release
> ... damn Hell ;P
> 
> uriel

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Sape Mullender]

> In other words, Sape's complaints is more highlighting a surmountable
> drawback than really suggesting that cacheing isn't usable.  He gave
> the impression that he'd stopped useing cacheing because of this.

What I was trying to convey was that, if you reboot daily with a clean
cache, the performance improvement from the cache is hardly worth
bothering about.

	Sape

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Lucio De Re]

> You can do that with plan9.ini: set up two different
> [whatever] sections with root= and cfs= lines.
> It's only when you're typing the root at root is from:
> that you get in trouble, because there is no cache is from:
> prompt.

In other words, Sape's complaints is more highlighting a surmountable
drawback than really suggesting that cacheing isn't usable.  He gave
the impression that he'd stopped useing cacheing because of this.

I guess in a high-bandwidth environment the additional administration
required wouldn't be justified, but as bandwidth becomes more scarce,
cacheing increases in value.

++L

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Russ Cox]

> > Yes, you can tell cfs to clear the cache on startup, but then you lose a lot
> > of speed during the early phases of running.
>
> Out of ignorance, perhaps, I'd expect to be able to distinguish at
> startup between the target roots and make a decision accordingly.
> Would the namespace not be able to offer alternative caches in such a
> situation?  That would be just about ideal, wouldn't it?

You can do that with plan9.ini: set up two different
[whatever] sections with root= and cfs= lines.
It's only when you're typing the root at root is from:
that you get in trouble, because there is no cache is from:
prompt.

Russ

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Lucio De Re]

> Yes, you can tell cfs to clear the cache on startup, but then you lose a lot
> of speed during the early phases of running.

Out of ignorance, perhaps, I'd expect to be able to distinguish at
startup between the target roots and make a decision accordingly.
Would the namespace not be able to offer alternative caches in such a
situation?  That would be just about ideal, wouldn't it?

++L

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Sape Mullender]

>> Just to be clear, Sape is saying that if you boot and
>> sometimes you use one file server as root and sometimes
>> you use a different one, then cfs will use the data cached
>> on behalf of the first one when you're using the other
>> one.

That was indeed what I meant.

> Is there not a simple mechanism to clean the cache on boot, manually,
> possibly, or perhaps giving CFS enough information to pick a cache
> based on the root fileserver?  I mean, this sounds more like a bug
> than a feature.

Yes, you can tell cfs to clear the cache on startup, but then you lose a lot
of speed during the early phases of running.

	Sape

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Lucio De Re]

> Just to be clear, Sape is saying that if you boot and
> sometimes you use one file server as root and sometimes
> you use a different one, then cfs will use the data cached
> on behalf of the first one when you're using the other
> one.

Is there not a simple mechanism to clean the cache on boot, manually,
possibly, or perhaps giving CFS enough information to pick a cache
based on the root fileserver?  I mean, this sounds more like a bug
than a feature.

++L

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Ronald G Minnich]

Wes Kussmaul wrote:

> Blackdog? Nice, but it runs Linux. I have a fingerprint USB token  that 
> "runs" Inferno so I can connect with a grid from anywhere.

blackdog is the xlininx v2p. I talked to one of the engineers -- he 
visited here. They are not averse to the idea of Plan 9.

ron

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Wes Kussmaul]

On Sep 15, 2005, at 11:50 AM, Ronald G Minnich wrote:

>  I want a backpack full of cpu servers, a laptop with no disk, and  
> a fossil in my pocket (maybe an ipod? Or see the blackdog device --  
> can't turn on fossil until it takes your thumbprint).
>

Blackdog? Nice, but it runs Linux. I have a fingerprint USB token  
that "runs" Inferno so I can connect with a grid from anywhere.

OK, well it doesn't really run on the token, it uses the PC's  
processor. But that'll change shortly when I get a new chip from  
Atmel. I believe Blackdog uses Atmel's chipset.

Wes

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Dave Eckhardt]

> although you can now run all components on one
> cpu server, it's still best to scrounge the extra
> machine to keep the file server and cpu server
> separate, and to run a limited set of services on
> the file server.

That's what made sense to me.  And I was hoping for
a slick trick resulting in "file server accepts logins
only from people in group sys".  Thanks for the other
suggestions.

Dave Eckhardt

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Russ Cox]

> I've connected through cfs for years but 
> gave it up now that I have to connect
> to more than one file server — cfs isn't 
> good at tracking what server you use and
> will interpret cached data from one server 
> as belonging to another.  Not good.

Just to be clear, Sape is saying that if you boot and
sometimes you use one file server as root and sometimes
you use a different one, then cfs will use the data cached
on behalf of the first one when you're using the other
one.

He is *not* saying that, if you boot with cfs using one
file server and then run 9fs other-file-server, that
cfs somehow gets in the way in that case.

Russ

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Sape Mullender]

>> Are you using caching?
> 
> not that I'm aware of.
> 
>> Would/does it make a difference?
> 
> good question.
> experience, anyone?
> 
>> What speed is the link?
> 
> cable modem, I think it is 1024/256.

I've connected through cfs for years but gave it up now that I have to connect
to more than one file server — cfs isn't good at tracking what server you use and
will interpret cached data from one server as belonging to another.  Not good.

Cfs gives a fair amount of speedup.  It still contacts the server on every open,
but, if the file hasn't changed, won't need to fetch it from the server again.

	Sape

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Uriel]

On Fri, Sep 16, 2005 at 09:34:39AM -0400, erik quanstrom wrote:
> you know, i was thinking the linux folks have hacked those linksys
> wireless routers. now that would be an excellent auth server. ;-)
Rumor has it that those things run great with OzInferno, now if we
could only convince Brucee to to release it... ;)

This days they are dirty cheap, either from ebay or new, when mechiel
was working here we had this idea to build a mini-inferno-cluster out of
a dozen of those things... but then Dell delayed the OzInferno release
... damn Hell ;P

uriel

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[andrey mirtchovski]

>> Are you using caching?
> 
> not that I'm aware of.

I have.

> 
>> Would/does it make a difference?
> 
> good question.
> experience, anyone?

not for compilation.  as it creates object files and binaries it
necessarily needs to write absolutely everything past the cache and
onto the file server mounted.  on a sufficiently fast connection one
actually sees a slowdown when compared with non-cached compilations.
for any other general access caching really helps.

not all news are bad though -- one can boot from a remote file server
(presumably with caching) and edit the files locally (with all the
benefits of a very small response time) and cpu to a remote cpu server
just for the compilation.  i, for example, run 'win' in acme, cpu
close to the file server and keep a compile string handy on the top of
the window.

this all assumes that the uplink (writing to the file server) is the
slow part of the connection, which is the case with most home
dsl/cable providers.

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[erik quanstrom]

i've got this dim memory of reading in the plan 9 papers that the
security model is based on physically removing the auth server from
everybody else.

you know, i was thinking the linux folks have hacked those linksys
wireless routers. now that would be an excellent auth server. ;-)

erik

Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net> writes

[...]
 i don't see why it can't be the auth server as well.
| i put the file servers on a cheap UPS as well, to reduce anxiety
| about scrambled or lost data in venti archives (although
| on wednesday morning i bumped into
| someone else in a shared machine room who
| was crouched down changing some
| batteries that had gone bad on their UPS).

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Axel Belinfante]

> > the connection home-work is fast enough to do remote editing,
> > but limited enough to make local (at home) compilation of files
> > residing on the remote (work) fs more painful.

just to be complete: the home machine takes root from local disk
(I have been using a diskless setup in the past where the home
 machine took root from work fs.
 that worked too, but application startup was slower, of course.)

> Are you using caching?

not that I'm aware of.

> Would/does it make a difference?

good question.
experience, anyone?

> What speed is the link?

cable modem, I think it is 1024/256.

> Just to get an idea of the options...

Axel.

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Lucio De Re]

> the connection home-work is fast enough to do remote editing,
> but limited enough to make local (at home) compilation of files
> residing on the remote (work) fs more painful.

Are you using caching?  Would/does it make a difference?  What speed
is the link?  Just to get an idea of the options...

++L

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Axel Belinfante]

> I didn't say that wasn't the main reason, just that proximity to the
> file server was also a factor, I can't find the quote I'm looking for
> which I think was more explicit, but from
> http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/9.html
> 
> "The effect of running a cpu command is therefore to start a shell on a
> fast machine, one more tightly coupled to the file server"
> 
> And I wasn't as much trying to make history remark, as trying to point
> an important and often overlooked feature of 'cpu' servers.

I think this tighter coupling is exactly the reason why I cpu
from home to work instead of just mounting work-fs at home:

the connection home-work is fast enough to do remote editing,
but limited enough to make local (at home) compilation of files
residing on the remote (work) fs more painful.

Axel.

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Charles Forsyth]

> One day I logged into our file server and ran it out of
> swap by mistake.

although you can now run all components on
one cpu server, it's still best to scrounge the
extra machine to keep the file server and cpu server
separate, and to run a limited set of services on the file server.
i don't see why it can't be the auth server as well.
i put the file servers on a cheap UPS as well, to reduce anxiety
about scrambled or lost data in venti archives (although
on wednesday morning i bumped into
someone else in a shared machine room who
was crouched down changing some
batteries that had gone bad on their UPS).

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Russ Cox]

You don't need to run a second authentication server,
just a second authentication domain.  The way to do this
is to start the fossil as normal but then replace the usual
aux/listen command with

@{
    rfork n
    auth/factotum
    read -m new.factotum >/mnt/factotum/ctl
    aux/listen tcp
}

and then the listeners will be using the new factotum.
If you put in new.factotum (which should be handled
some other way but so be it) a key like

key proto=p9sk1 user=davide dom=other.cs.cmu.edu !password=asdf

then you will find that cpu'ing into that machine will prompt
for a key from other.cs.cmu.edu, and your account will
be the only one that works (any others would require 
an authentication server).

Russ

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Dave Eckhardt]

> Split the authentication domain into two.
> One for ordinary users in which "our CPU server" and
> the file server (fossil processes) runs, and the other
> in which the file server (the box itself) boots and runs.

I remember reading about that.  To be honest, I was wondering
if there might be a simpler way, without having to run a second
auth server.  For example (and I haven't tried either):

* arrange for the cpu/ncpu listener to run in a namespace where
  /bin/rc is mode 750, so only members of the designated group
  can run it

* put a group-membership check in some "early" /bin/rc startup file

Dave Eckhardt

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Dave Eckhardt]

> Your file server swaps when too many people log in?

One day I logged into our file server and ran it out of
swap by mistake.  I don't remember what I was doing, but
it can be done, and I'd prefer to at least keep the size
of the pool of people who can do it small (and maybe
I flatter myself into thinking that after N semesters'
of experience I might also be less likely than a student
with <1 to do it).

Dave Eckhardt

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Ronald G Minnich]

Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> 
> On Sep 15, 2005, at 1:27 PM, Charles Forsyth wrote:
> 
>>> I've been planning to put a cluster of embedded (HOT!) Pentium Ms  in a
>>> wine cooler for some time now. Tasteful design, nice glass door,  quiet,
>>> the height of elegance!
>>
>>
>> the heat will ruin the burgundy, though.
> 
> 
> And the acid from the wine will do bad things to the PCB traces! Not  to 
> mention what the sugar from the cooler component will do to the  cleanup 
> effort :-(


Drink enough wine and you won't care anyway. The supercomputer wine 
cooler comes with a built-in moral booster in liquid form.

ron

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

On Sep 15, 2005, at 1:27 PM, Charles Forsyth wrote:

>> I've been planning to put a cluster of embedded (HOT!) Pentium Ms  
>> in a
>> wine cooler for some time now. Tasteful design, nice glass door,  
>> quiet,
>> the height of elegance!
>
> the heat will ruin the burgundy, though.

And the acid from the wine will do bad things to the PCB traces! Not  
to mention what the sugar from the cooler component will do to the  
cleanup effort :-(

--lyndon

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Kenji Okamoto]

> life has changed.

life is always changing.
I'm getting older, and I have to find a new way for my left life etc...

By the way, I agree the role of CPU servers is changing.
Here, it's only for inter/intranet daemon processes.  
Terminals are powefull enough these days for our work here.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[YAMANASHI Takeshi]

> Ok, I'll ask this question which I've been meaning
> to look into:  what is the easiest/cleanest way to
> restrict logins to our file server to certain people
> (to avoid, say, it running out of swap) while allowing
> everybody to log into our CPU server?

Split the authentication domain into two.
One for ordinary users in which "our CPU server" and
the file server (fossil processes) runs, and the other
in which the file server (the box itself) boots and runs.

my memo:
	http://p9c.cc.titech.ac.jp/plan9/secp9.html#secventi

Hope this helps.
-- 

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Charles Forsyth]

> I've been planning to put a cluster of embedded (HOT!) Pentium Ms in a 
> wine cooler for some time now. Tasteful design, nice glass door, quiet, 
> the height of elegance!

the heat will ruin the burgundy, though.

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Uriel]

I think you are confused:

% cat /bin/Kill
#!/bin/rc
for(i){
        ps | sed -n '/ '^$i^'$/s%^[^ ]* *([^ ]*).*%chmod 666 /proc/\1/ctl;echo kill > /proc/\1/ctl%p'
}

On Thu, Sep 15, 2005 at 03:55:10PM -0400, ISHWAR RATTAN wrote:
> I forgot mention that
>   echo Kill > /proc/pid/note
> 
> does not help. I will have to set up a time for
> reboot of cpu-server.
> 
> -ishwar
> 
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, ISHWAR RATTAN wrote:
> 
> >I have only two boxen:
> > - auth-server
> > - cpu-server
> >
> >and drawterm is used to login into cpu-server
> >
> >-ishwar
> >
> >On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Fco. J. Ballesteros wrote:
> >
> >>We forbid them to cpu into a cpu server.
> >>They run their own diskless terminals, which they reboot
> >>when they are done.  You might do the same.
> >>
> >>:  Students leave around running processes on the
> >>:  system. Is there a way to kill these?
> >>:    echo kill > /proc/868/note
> >>:  says permission denied (which makes sense as
> >>:  I am trying to kill them logged as bootes).
> >>
> >

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[ISHWAR RATTAN]

I forgot mention that
   echo Kill > /proc/pid/note

does not help. I will have to set up a time for
reboot of cpu-server.

-ishwar

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, ISHWAR RATTAN wrote:

> I have only two boxen:
>  - auth-server
>  - cpu-server
>
> and drawterm is used to login into cpu-server
>
> -ishwar
>
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Fco. J. Ballesteros wrote:
>
>> We forbid them to cpu into a cpu server.
>> They run their own diskless terminals, which they reboot
>> when they are done.  You might do the same.
>> 
>> :  Students leave around running processes on the
>> :  system. Is there a way to kill these?
>> :    echo kill > /proc/868/note
>> :  says permission denied (which makes sense as
>> :  I am trying to kill them logged as bootes).
>> 
>

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Skip Tavakkolian]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 374 bytes --]

I'm drawterm'ed in from a client site.  If I'm someplace where the
link is very slow, I boot up Plan9 under VMWare and import parts of
the namespace I need from the cpu.

As a standalone computing service, they're still relevant.  Also it's
important to consider them service nodes, serving parts of the namespace
(fossil) or performing specific function (auth, mail).

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2556 bytes --]

From: "Fco. J. Ballesteros" <nemo@lsub.org>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] killing processes
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:44:46 +0200
Message-ID: <a42a16477cd81fe7bd1acc9add428906@lsub.org>

:  In that sense, the 'cpu server' is outdated nomenclature.

Yep. In Plan B we don't have CPU servers, actually. (We made an
experiment but its result was not clear). We have "permanent terminals", though.
If you own a machine, you can arrange for remote omeros to browse/exec on it.

I wonder, how many 9fans are *actually* using CPU servers?
[do not count a CPU server that runs your fossil as such, it's a file server, isn't it?]

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Russ Cox]

> > We forbid them to cpu into a cpu server.
> 
> Ok, I'll ask this question which I've been meaning
> to look into:  what is the easiest/cleanest way to
> restrict logins to our file server to certain people
> (to avoid, say, it running out of swap) while allowing
> everybody to log into our CPU server?

Your file server swaps when too many people log in?

Russ

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Enache Adrian]

On Thu, Sep 15, 2005 at 01:03:43PM +0100, Steve Simon wrote:
> If you are running as hostowner you can use Kill (capital K) which
> chmods the file first:
> 
> chmod 666 /proc/868/ctl;echo kill > /proc/868/ctl
> 
> This will not work for factotum as it marks itself as private,
> [perhaps this is a bug - private need not chmod of ctl is impossible?]

I noticed that, too.
Any user process can make its memory private, and then the hostowner
has to reboot the machine in order to kick it out.
Am I wrong about this ?

Regards,
Adi

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Dave Eckhardt]

> We forbid them to cpu into a cpu server.

Ok, I'll ask this question which I've been meaning
to look into:  what is the easiest/cleanest way to
restrict logins to our file server to certain people
(to avoid, say, it running out of swap) while allowing
everybody to log into our CPU server?

Dave Eckhardt

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[ISHWAR RATTAN]

I have only two boxen:
   - auth-server
   - cpu-server

and drawterm is used to login into cpu-server

-ishwar

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Fco. J. Ballesteros wrote:

> We forbid them to cpu into a cpu server.
> They run their own diskless terminals, which they reboot
> when they are done.  You might do the same.
>
> :  Students leave around running processes on the
> :  system. Is there a way to kill these?
> :    echo kill > /proc/868/note
> :  says permission denied (which makes sense as
> :  I am trying to kill them logged as bootes).
>

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Ronald G Minnich]

Charles Forsyth wrote:

> indeed, and you can put collections of cpu and file servers in cooling rooms,
> keeping a smaller, cooler laptop that you can actually put on your lap
> without risking burns or setting fire to your trousers...
> 

I've been planning to put a cluster of embedded (HOT!) Pentium Ms in a 
wine cooler for some time now. Tasteful design, nice glass door, quiet, 
the height of elegance!

ron

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Ronald G Minnich]

Lucio De Re wrote:

> That's the view from a particular location.  Think in terms of limited
> resources, like electricity, for example.  Or networking bandwidth.
> Or cooling.  And, lastly, multitasking programming skills.


gotcha.

thanks, good point.

ron

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Charles Forsyth]

> And in the early days, it was a lot easier to buy a really fast
> cpu server than it was to buy a really fast terminal.  It's still
> more cost-effective.

indeed, and you can put collections of cpu and file servers in cooling rooms,
keeping a smaller, cooler laptop that you can actually put on your lap
without risking burns or setting fire to your trousers...

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Lucio De Re]

> I don't see any point in computing on a file server. CPUs are so cheap. 
> Just throw as many of them as you need at a problem until the problem 
> succumbs to them.

That's the view from a particular location.  Think in terms of limited
resources, like electricity, for example.  Or networking bandwidth.
Or cooling.  And, lastly, multitasking programming skills.

++L

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Uriel]

On Thu, Sep 15, 2005 at 11:27:51AM -0400, Russ Cox wrote:
> This just isn't true.  The cpu server lets you use its cpu.
> And in the early days, it was a lot easier to buy a really fast
> cpu server than it was to buy a really fast terminal.  It's still
> more cost-effective.
I didn't say that wasn't the main reason, just that proximity to the
file server was also a factor, I can't find the quote I'm looking for
which I think was more explicit, but from http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/9.html

"The effect of running a cpu command is therefore to start a shell on a
fast machine, one more tightly coupled to the file server"

And I wasn't as much trying to make history remark, as trying to point
an important and often overlooked feature of 'cpu' servers.

uriel

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Steve Simon]

>
> life has changed.
> 
> ron

The only thing we can be sure of is that it will change again.

When we get 256 CPUs on a die and Optical CPUs maybe we may
find the cpu server model fits again.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Lucio De Re]

> Well, we use a separate CPU server to provide web,mail,dhcp, etc.,
> and try to keep the file server undisturbed. I wouldn't call this `obsolete',
> we no longer have file server blockouts when spammers find a way to
> really overload our smtpd/httpd.

A good point, I concede.  I do likewise, but not through forethought
and I certainly acknowledge the benefits.

It sounds like we no longer ought to treat the CPU server as a
shareable resource as much as a distribution element.  The workstation
happens to be a similar, if not identical element of the variety that
focusses on graphical presentation.

In such case, only serious iron needs to serve "cpu" cycles with
"drawterm" being more a means to relocate the workstation from in
front of you to where it is permitted.  Hm, this bit needs more
careful thinking, I'm not presenting the picture very clearly,
probably because I don't see it very clearly :-)

++L

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Fco. J. Ballesteros]

I understood that on terminals you want more memory for
images and the like; On CPUs it seems they wanted more
memory for user processes (more users, more processes).

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Ronald G Minnich]

>>And, by the way, cpu servers are the only way I use Plan 9
>>these days.

I'm going to go that route as soon as I work out how to use a laptop, on 
travel, off the network, in that mode. I want a backpack full of cpu 
servers, a laptop with no disk, and a fossil in my pocket (maybe an 
ipod? Or see the blackdog device -- can't turn on fossil until it takes 
your thumbprint).

ron

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Brantley Coile]

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at Coraid, we have two cpu servers that run daemons
and provide machines for the folks who have to run
other systems (bsd, linux).  we also have a terminal server
to get to consoles.  since our SATA+RAID product runs
Plan 9 you could say we have a good many cpu servers.

however, we don't use the servers
as a fast place to run programs.

  Brantley

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From: "Fco. J. Ballesteros" <nemo@lsub.org>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] killing processes
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:44:46 +0200
Message-ID: <a42a16477cd81fe7bd1acc9add428906@lsub.org>

:  In that sense, the 'cpu server' is outdated nomenclature.

Yep. In Plan B we don't have CPU servers, actually. (We made an
experiment but its result was not clear). We have "permanent terminals", though.
If you own a machine, you can arrange for remote omeros to browse/exec on it.

I wonder, how many 9fans are *actually* using CPU servers?
[do not count a CPU server that runs your fossil as such, it's a file server, isn't it?]

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[jmk]

On Thu Sep 15 11:40:59 EDT 2005, rminnich@lanl.gov wrote:
> ...
> Meant to be shared, by lots of folks, hence that ' ... big boys' comment 
> in the startup code, reserving more kernel memory since there would be 
> more users on a cpu than on a terminal.
> 
> life has changed.
> 
> ron

Actually, that code RESTRICTS the amount of kernel memory on a machine
that has lots of physical memory if it is being used as a cpu server.

--jim

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Ronald G Minnich]

I don't see any point in computing on a file server. CPUs are so cheap. 
Just throw as many of them as you need at a problem until the problem 
succumbs to them.

ron

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Ronald G Minnich]

Lucio De Re wrote:

> In particular, the 100MHz Cyclone connection between CPU server and
> file server always suggests a reality check to me.

It's my turn to miss the point, can you expound on this a bit more?

thanks

ron

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Lucio De Re]

> And, by the way, cpu servers are the only way I use Plan 9
> these days.

Thought provoking.  My experiences with early drawterm were not
promising (NetBSD as opposed to Windows or Linux, the multithreading
is still not entirely adequate), so I use VNCviewer on NetBSD and VNCS
on a CPU server.  Probably masochistic of me, I'll have to try
drawterm once again.

At home, it's worse as I have to use VNCV on my Plan 9 workstation to
access the NetBSD hosts so I have one VNCV session and I do all the
remote work through it.  I guess it's good to get the occasional jolt
and investigate the options.

To be sure, an X server session or, even better, some way of getting
RIO and and X clients to communicate seemlessly would be exactly what
I believe I need.

++L

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Ronald G Minnich]

Uriel wrote:

> I think it's already mentioned in the original papers that one of the
> main reason for 'cpu' servers is bandwidth/proximity to the file
> server(s), so I in a way it has always been a misnomer.


yeah, but ... those cpu servers, IIRC, were big 'ol power challenge 
machines.Big fat SMP, faster than the terminals, much more memory, etc. 
I remember Rob's talk at '89 usenix (or some such) and it was clear at 
the time that the cpu servers really were where you did computing, not 
on your weakling terminal.

Meant to be shared, by lots of folks, hence that ' ... big boys' comment 
in the startup code, reserving more kernel memory since there would be 
more users on a cpu than on a terminal.

life has changed.

ron

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Fco. J. Ballesteros]

Well, we use a separate CPU server to provide web,mail,dhcp, etc.,
and try to keep the file server undisturbed. I wouldn't call this `obsolete',
we no longer have file server blockouts when spammers find a way to
really overload our smtpd/httpd.

:  Until now, I
:  had considered the Fossil host as strictly out of bounds for
:  computation.  But _that_ is obsolete thinking, my approach ought to be
:  to enhance its resources as far as possible.

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Lucio De Re]

> I think it's already mentioned in the original papers that one of the
> main reason for 'cpu' servers is bandwidth/proximity to the file
> server(s), so I in a way it has always been a misnomer.

A good point.  Fossil does provide, at a price, the features of both
worlds and in fact encourages being used in both roles.  Until now, I
had considered the Fossil host as strictly out of bounds for
computation.  But _that_ is obsolete thinking, my approach ought to be
to enhance its resources as far as possible.

Unfortunately, it is no longer possible, in this type of scenario, to
identify clearly which of two otherwise distinguishable needs is not
being met when the Fossil server runs out of steam.  It makes more
sense to cluster CPU servers around it and alleviate its computational
load, if feasible, reverting to the obsolete model.

I dunno, it sounds like too much of a judgement call.

++L

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Russ Cox]

> I think it's already mentioned in the original papers that one of the
> main reason for 'cpu' servers is bandwidth/proximity to the file
> server(s), so in a way it has always been a misnomer.

This just isn't true.  The cpu server lets you use its cpu.
And in the early days, it was a lot easier to buy a really fast
cpu server than it was to buy a really fast terminal.  It's still
more cost-effective.

And, by the way, cpu servers are the only way I use Plan 9
these days.

Russ

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Lucio De Re]

> I wonder, how many 9fans are *actually* using CPU servers?

You and Ron both confirm my experience.  The CPU server I have runs
applications: e-mail, web, wiki, that type of thing.  I can't use it
to render Geotiffs as I have better resources (physical memory, CPU
cycles, SWAP) in my workstation.  I guess if I had homogenous
hardware, I would allocate new resources where they are more
beneficial (that's where the CPU server would consolidate the benefits
of such resources), but the mish-mash of obsolete hardware I have
accumulated just does not allow me to do so.

Something in that picture is worrying, because the file server is
still a focal point and centralising processing power ought to be
analogous, but empirically, they seem to be poles apart.

It seems to me that the authors of the early Plan 9 papers would
arrive to very different pictures if they were to consider our
conditions vis-a-vis computing resources and telecommunication
channels.

In particular, the 100MHz Cyclone connection between CPU server and
file server always suggests a reality check to me.

++L

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Uriel]

On Thu, Sep 15, 2005 at 04:44:46PM +0200, Fco. J. Ballesteros wrote:
> :  In that sense, the 'cpu server' is outdated nomenclature.
> I wonder, how many 9fans are *actually* using CPU servers?  [do not
> count a CPU server that runs your fossil as such, it's a file server,
> isn't it?]

I think it's already mentioned in the original papers that one of the
main reason for 'cpu' servers is bandwidth/proximity to the file
server(s), so I in a way it has always been a misnomer.

uriel

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Gabriel Diaz]

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Hi 

Is there any way to know when a user is connected or not?

a relation between netstat and procs running by the user may be ?

or something easier i missed? 

gabi

2005/9/15, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>:
> 
> > I wonder, how many 9fans are *actually* using CPU servers?
> > [do not count a CPU server that runs your fossil as such, it's a file 
> server, isn't it?]
> 
> i'm using a cpu server 100% of the time -- my terminal is a drawterm
> session.
> 
>

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Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Axel Belinfante]

> I wonder, how many 9fans are *actually* using CPU servers?
> [do not count a CPU server that runs your fossil as such,
> it's a file server, isn't it?]

[haven't followed the discussion closely, sorry if this is off target]
I'm using a cpu server (even as we speak) that I drawterm
into from my office (have a sun on my desk), and cpu into
from my home plan 9 machine.
At home I could instead mount the fs from work, but
since I'm mostly editing and compiling cpu works better.

However, to support the slow/fast cpu/terminal case,
the home machine _is_ faster than the office cpu.

Axel.

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[andrey mirtchovski]

> I wonder, how many 9fans are *actually* using CPU servers?
> [do not count a CPU server that runs your fossil as such, it's a file server, isn't it?]

i'm using a cpu server 100% of the time -- my terminal is a drawterm
session.

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Fco. J. Ballesteros]

:  In that sense, the 'cpu server' is outdated nomenclature.

Yep. In Plan B we don't have CPU servers, actually. (We made an
experiment but its result was not clear). We have "permanent terminals", though.
If you own a machine, you can arrange for remote omeros to browse/exec on it.

I wonder, how many 9fans are *actually* using CPU servers?
[do not count a CPU server that runs your fossil as such, it's a file server, isn't it?]

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Ronald G Minnich]

Fco. J. Ballesteros wrote:

> Well, we could use Kill as said here, or even
> reboot the machine on saturdays 5am to make it clean,
> etc.

that's the one nice thing about a cluster node. You have lots of 'em, 
they can be single user. So just let one cpu user in to one cluster node 
at a time, and when they leave, reboot the node. If it's linuxbios the 
node is back in 10 seconds or so, and if it is a linuxbios+plan 9 node 
running xcpu, even faster than that (Plan 9 xcpu nodes boot in 1 second 
in Xen).


> However, the PCs have so much CPU today that they don't even
> feel the need for a CPU server.

And that's the fun part. The relative power relationship of terminal/cpu 
server got inverted about 10 years ago. In the kernel there is this 
comment about ' ... for the big boys'. But, nowadays, the desktop is way 
more powerful than any individual cluster node (well, if by nowadays, 
you mean, "starting in 1992..."). So the "big boy" is on your desk, and 
the toy computer is in your rack. It's just that there are so MANY toy 
computers in the racks ... the ants overwhelm the elephant.

And on the really Big Boy, i.e. the BG/L machine at livermore, the 
individual CPUs are running at clock rates that are "SO 1990s" -- 600 
Mhz! But, given 65K of them, well, you don't mind that they're slow.

In that sense, the 'cpu server' is outdated nomenclature.

ron

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Fco. J. Ballesteros]

:  hmm, my irony-meter just went to max.

:-)

:  Isn't there a better solution to this problem than not letting people 
:  use a cpu server as a cpu server?

Well, we could use Kill as said here, or even
reboot the machine on saturdays 5am to make it clean,
etc.

However, the PCs have so much CPU today that they don't even
feel the need for a CPU server.

BTW, we did not actually remove the service, we simply suggested
not to use the CPU server (which, btw, is in fact their file server).

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Ronald G Minnich]

Fco. J. Ballesteros wrote:
> We forbid them to cpu into a cpu server.

hmm, my irony-meter just went to max.

Isn't there a better solution to this problem than not letting people 
use a cpu server as a cpu server?

ron

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Charles Forsyth]

it seems a bit restrictive to stop use of the cpu
server.   anyhow, if you're hostowner (eg, bootes)
try using Kill instead of kill.  it chmods the ctl file so the hostowner
has permissions.

[9fans] killing processes

[Fco. J. Ballesteros]

We forbid them to cpu into a cpu server.
They run their own diskless terminals, which they reboot
when they are done.  You might do the same. 

:  Students leave around running processes on the
:  system. Is there a way to kill these?
:    echo kill > /proc/868/note
:  says permission denied (which makes sense as
:  I am trying to kill them logged as bootes).

Re: [9fans] killing processes

[Steve Simon]

If you are running as hostowner you can use Kill (capital K) which
chmods the file first:

chmod 666 /proc/868/ctl;echo kill > /proc/868/ctl

This will not work for factotum as it marks itself as private,
[perhaps this is a bug - private need not chmod of ctl is impossible?]

Its not much of an issue as if you kill the users rio
then their factotum will lose its stdin and exit anyway.

-Steve

[9fans] killing processes

[ISHWAR RATTAN]

Students leave around running processes on the
system. Is there a way to kill these?
  echo kill > /proc/868/note
says permission denied (which makes sense as
I am trying to kill them logged as bootes).

-ishwar