Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio

Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio

[okamoto]

>not faithful followers of the "Cathedral and the Bazaar" religion.

As I'm not any native English speaker, I don't see why Cathedral and Bazaar 
is tied with each other here.  ;_;

If you are not saying the case of limbo and alef, we can put anything to
public, I think.   Judging to incorporate it into the next release is depend
on those who will make distibution.  Even if, unfortunately, it will not be 
incorporated, you can distribute it separately, and others can select what
s/he wants.   I think this is very natural...  I prefer controled distribution
rather than anarchy one, particularly for its core part.

In the case of alef and limbo, it may be difficult to judge, because no one
can live without money today.  ^_^  Of course, I know limbo and alef are
different language each other, though.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio

[Lucio De Re]

On Thu, Mar 08, 2001 at 04:03:35PM +0000, okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp wrote:
> 
> >not faithful followers of the "Cathedral and the Bazaar" religion.
> 
> As I'm not any native English speaker, I don't see why Cathedral and Bazaar 
> is tied with each other here.  ;_;
> 
Eric Raymond's essay "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" suggests that
modern software development is organic rather than architectural.
I think there's truth (Linux) in the suggestion, but my personal
view is that I prefer few (and far between) cathedrals to flea
markets around every corner as is the case in Johannesburg.  So
untidy!  And then there's Pompidou Centre (where's Boyd?!)

> If you are not saying the case of limbo and alef, we can put anything to
> public, I think.   Judging to incorporate it into the next release is depend
> on those who will make distibution.  Even if, unfortunately, it will not be 
> incorporated, you can distribute it separately, and others can select what
> s/he wants.   I think this is very natural...  I prefer controled distribution
> rather than anarchy one, particularly for its core part.
> 
No, Limbo and Alef are anomalies.  So is the 2nd Edition licence.
Vita Nuova have every right to get a return on their investment,
and I'd be right at the head of the queue if I could afford it.
But I'm far more of a coral polyp than Aaro Saarinen or Le Corbusier,
and I'm pleased that small contributions are permissible.

Democracy would demand an open review process, both to encourage
contributions and to protect the unwary from malicious offerings.
And to retain and develop the culture in which the coral would
grow.

> In the case of alef and limbo, it may be difficult to judge, because no one
> can live without money today.  ^_^  Of course, I know limbo and alef are
> different language each other, though.
> 
I always thought Alef characterised Plan 9, so I'm pleased Limbo
defines Inferno.  It is sad that Alef had to be sacrificed to
expedience (I don't mean this in a negative sense) and its lineage
could continue outside the Inferno realm.  It does say something
for "C", though, that it can subsume the Alef properties.

++L

Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio

[Lucio De Re]

On Thu, Mar 08, 2001 at 09:43:21AM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote:
> > 
> I always thought Alef characterised Plan 9, so I'm pleased Limbo
> defines Inferno.  It is sad that Alef had to be sacrificed to
> expedience (I don't mean this in a negative sense) and its lineage
> could continue outside the Inferno realm.  It does say something
> for "C", though, that it can subsume the Alef properties.
> 
s/could continue/could not continue/

And that I'm using a GCC monstrosity with other GNU bloats to cross
develop for a chip that has at most 16KBytes of program memory :-)

++L

Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio

[Dan Cross]

In article <20010308094321.S17986@cackle.proxima.alt.za> you write:
>Eric Raymond's essay "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" suggests that
>modern software development is organic rather than architectural.
>I think there's truth (Linux) in the suggestion, but my personal
>view is that I prefer few (and far between) cathedrals to flea
>markets [...]

Hmmm....  The more I think about it, the less I believe Eric Raymond.
Linux really is built architecturally; those components where the
unwashed masses contribute (device drivers, utilities) are more like
the bricks in the cathedral, if you will....  Even medieval cathedrals
had masses of unwashed laborors to put everything together (often in
unsanitary and unsafe conditions, but I digress....) once it had been
defined by the architects.  I guess the idea with Linux is that the
potential is there for anyone to contribute to major components of the
system, but that's probably true of any ``Open Source'' project, and
doesn't mean that the architecture isn't tightly controlled.

That said, I have a hard time accepting the ``bazaar'' idea....  It's
meant to work if you have lots of highly skilled individuals working on
a project.  Unfortunately, most projects are staffed almost entirely by
mediocre individuals, and most if not all projects I've seen run that
way produce buggy, bloated, and unreadable code.

It's a shame that an entire generation of programmers is growing up
learning from such horrible models of style.....  Call it the
``slashdot effect.''

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio

[Ozan Yigit]

okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp writes:

> >not faithful followers of the "Cathedral and the Bazaar" religion.
> 
> As I'm not any native English speaker, I don't see why Cathedral and Bazaar 
> is tied with each other here.  ;_;

i gather the only reason the two are tied together is that it sounds
interesting and deep to people who read "old architecture" for the word
cathedral, and rarely visit an actual bazaar (let alone a cathedral :).
he could have titled his treatise "empire state building and the bazaar"
but it doesn't sound as neat, and who really wants to write about the
kinds of architecture that can withstand (the equivalent of) a B-25
bomber crash? :]

oz

Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio

[Eric Dorman]

rob pike wrote:
> 
>         perhaps he had in mind that it was noisy, bright and colourful, and if
>         you took something without paying you got your hand chopped off.
[xxx]
> Catheter and the bizarre is closer to the truth. In one case you're force
> fed by professionals; in the other anything can happen.
> -rob

After spending the last few days struggling to port a C++ program
to HPUX and g++ on a v2500 I found this response to be particularly 
funny.  Definately made my week.

--eric

Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio

[forsyth]

>>had masses of unwashed laborors to put everything together (often in
>>unsanitary and unsafe conditions, but I digress....) once it had been

indeed, that does sound, or rather smell, like many undergraduate PC classrooms...
especially when that project is due.

Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio

[rob pike]

	perhaps he had in mind that it was noisy, bright and colourful, and if
	you took something without paying you got your hand chopped off.

Or maybe haggling for hours over the details of payment with someone
who doesn't speak your language.

Catheter and the bizarre is closer to the truth. In one case you're force
fed by professionals; in the other anything can happen.

-rob

Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio

[Lucio De Re]

On Thu, Mar 08, 2001 at 10:00:41AM +0000, nigel@9fs.org wrote:
> 
> Yes, and you think your buying a horse but it turns out to be a camel?

Depends what you paid for.  They have so many free pack-quadrupeds,
you spend more time finding a suitable one than travelling with or
on it.

My analogy is the coral reef.  Maybe a touch too uniform to represent
the Open Source movement accurately, but it served as a model for
the pre-commercialisation Internet.  You built your little home on
the backbone others had built before you, and let others use your
bit of backbone for their homes.  We all have a good idea how
far-reaching this approach has been.

++L

Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio

[nigel]

> the use of Bazaar is peculiar too; i suspected the author was one of those who
> referred to his books as `tomes'.  perhaps he had in mind that it was noisy,
> bright and colourful, and if you took something without paying you got your hand chopped off.
> no, that can't be right ...

Yes, and you think your buying a horse but it turns out to be a camel?

Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio

[forsyth]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 559 bytes --]

>>As I'm not any native English speaker, I don't see why Cathedral and Bazaar 
>>is tied with each other here.  ;_;

no, you're quite right.  it's a mixed metaphor.  Cathedral and (Nonconformist) Chapel
would associate properly, or Magisterium and Free Thinker perhaps.
the use of Bazaar is peculiar too; i suspected the author was one of those who
referred to his books as `tomes'.  perhaps he had in mind that it was noisy,
bright and colourful, and if you took something without paying you got your hand chopped off.
no, that can't be right ...


[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2213 bytes --]

From: okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 16:03:35 0900
Message-ID: <20010308070404.3A5341998A@mail.cse.psu.edu>

>not faithful followers of the "Cathedral and the Bazaar" religion.

As I'm not any native English speaker, I don't see why Cathedral and Bazaar 
is tied with each other here.  ;_;

If you are not saying the case of limbo and alef, we can put anything to
public, I think.   Judging to incorporate it into the next release is depend
on those who will make distibution.  Even if, unfortunately, it will not be 
incorporated, you can distribute it separately, and others can select what
s/he wants.   I think this is very natural...  I prefer controled distribution
rather than anarchy one, particularly for its core part.

In the case of alef and limbo, it may be difficult to judge, because no one
can live without money today.  ^_^  Of course, I know limbo and alef are
different language each other, though.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio

[Jim Choate]

Wiki

    ____________________________________________________________________

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           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage@ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Lucio De Re wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:15:06PM -0500, nemo@gsyc.escet.urjc.es wrote:
> > 
> > : Unless I'm misinterpreting the mood, I would think that Bell Labs are
> > : not faithful followers of the "Cathedral and the Bazaar" religion.
> > 
> > I just don't like bazaars, I was talking about silly tiny tools,
> > nice plumber rules, etc. that cannot be considered as part of the release.
> > And it was just to avoid using google to locate new tools done this month
> > by 9fans...
> > ...you know, mpeg3play, acd, rgb, pop3get, ext2fs, et al.
> 
> Yes, I think the list of software, good or bad, should be easier to
> find.  Unfortunately, that requires dedication as well as
> co-operation, something understandably missing where people have a job
> to do.
> 
> And I think that the crucial item is documentation.  RSC's little
> tools are wonderful, if one didn't have to look at their text to
> figure out what they do (no criticism implied here either, Russ).
> 
> A searchable web site might be a good idea, again, assuming the wiki
> is not the preferable tool (I really must take a look at it).  There
> Vita Nuova would seem in a favourable position indeed.
> 
> ++L
> 
> PS: I really didn't mean to sound critical in any fashion, and I would
> like to find a co-operative development for Plan 9 that did not risk
> at each turn to fly in the face of the existing elegance.  It is
> something the Bell Labs people should spend some time formalising.
> 

Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio

[nemo]

:  A searchable web site might be a good idea, again, assuming the wiki
:  is not the preferable tool (I really must take a look at it).  There
:  Vita Nuova would seem in a favourable position indeed.

Can the wiki installed for plan9 be used to put files other than web pages?
Is the wiki maintainer (rsc?) willing to let us put the files there?

If both answers are yes, I'm willing to spend some time on this. I'd start
with the wonderful rsc's software page (if he doesn't mind) and turn it
into a wiki page for contributed software.

Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio

[nemo]

: Unless I'm misinterpreting the mood, I would think that Bell Labs are
: not faithful followers of the "Cathedral and the Bazaar" religion.

I just don't like bazaars, I was talking about silly tiny tools,
nice plumber rules, etc. that cannot be considered as part of the release.
And it was just to avoid using google to locate new tools done this month
by 9fans...
...you know, mpeg3play, acd, rgb, pop3get, ext2fs, et al.

Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio

[nemo]

This is not the case, since I did it to learn; but
I think most of us are reimplementing silly tools
just because we consider them too silly to post a mail
to the list saying `new silly tool available'.

I'd propose that anytime any of us implements one of these
silly tools, we drop a line to the list. That way we can
save some time.

Or perhaps it's time to setup a kind of  official ftp area with
contributed sw (vitanuova site?) so any new user could download it
all at a go.

just an idea...

[9fans] silly slider tool for rio

[nemo]

Hi,

	to play with draw I implemented a silly program that
I think is useful. It lets you adjust a % using the mouse.
For example, I use it as in

	slider -f 'audio out %d' >>/dev/volume

to let me adjust the audio output level. 

the source is at http://plan9.escet.urjc.es/usr/nemo/export/slider.c

Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio

[Lucio De Re]

On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:15:06PM -0500, nemo@gsyc.escet.urjc.es wrote:
> 
> : Unless I'm misinterpreting the mood, I would think that Bell Labs are
> : not faithful followers of the "Cathedral and the Bazaar" religion.
> 
> I just don't like bazaars, I was talking about silly tiny tools,
> nice plumber rules, etc. that cannot be considered as part of the release.
> And it was just to avoid using google to locate new tools done this month
> by 9fans...
> ...you know, mpeg3play, acd, rgb, pop3get, ext2fs, et al.

Yes, I think the list of software, good or bad, should be easier to
find.  Unfortunately, that requires dedication as well as
co-operation, something understandably missing where people have a job
to do.

And I think that the crucial item is documentation.  RSC's little
tools are wonderful, if one didn't have to look at their text to
figure out what they do (no criticism implied here either, Russ).

A searchable web site might be a good idea, again, assuming the wiki
is not the preferable tool (I really must take a look at it).  There
Vita Nuova would seem in a favourable position indeed.

++L

PS: I really didn't mean to sound critical in any fashion, and I would
like to find a co-operative development for Plan 9 that did not risk
at each turn to fly in the face of the existing elegance.  It is
something the Bell Labs people should spend some time formalising.

Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio

[Lucio De Re]

On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:50:57PM -0500, nemo@gsyc.escet.urjc.es wrote:
> 
> Or perhaps it's time to setup a kind of  official ftp area with
> contributed sw (vitanuova site?) so any new user could download it
> all at a go.
> 
Unless I'm misinterpreting the mood, I would think that Bell Labs are
not faithful followers of the "Cathedral and the Bazaar" religion.

If I were to make a suggestion, it would be a two-tier approach.  A
public posting followed by peer-review and eventual incorporation into
the release (copyright permitting, naturally).

Can the Wiki be used in this fashion?  I'm afraid I have been lax on
that score.

++L

Re: [9fans] silly slider tool for rio

[rob pike]

For a quicky demo we've been putting together, I built a little
library of graphics controls.  A volume control, coincidentally, was
one of the things I had to build; it came out as a variant scroll bar,
with a little foresight.  It needs a lot of soaking and a bug fix in
libdraw, and it's far from exhaustive, but I like the way it works.
The approach is sound and I may well end up rebuilding it to make a
proper tool set.  For the immediate purposes, however, I took a lot of
shortcuts that make it not suitable for general use.

-rob